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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 18:41:22 GMT -5
I'm not sure I believe in the "having parry means your defense skill won't increase" thing that a lot of people insist on. It might have been the case many years ago and then been changed since, possibly back when they did the big defense code update in ~2007. I expect it's just a myth these days, possibly something that some old cunt remembers hearing at the 2002 APM or something and still takes for granted.
It just makes no sense and doesn't reflect my experiences in the game. I've had warriors that had never fought unarmed (perhaps outside of occasionally dropping their weapon when failing disarm) who were excellent in brawls. Hekro, a prolific tavern brawler, never fought unarmed and never lost a brawl. He was beating up Bynners left and right, and they train unarmed regularly.
If it were true, any warrior who hadn't done extreme amounts of unarmed sparring would get absolutely annihilated every time he's unarmed. He would be a 0-day warrior each time he fumbles his two-handed weapon. He would have just a few points of defense. It's frankly not feasible.
It's possible that a warrior will have less defense than a ranger who has lived the same kind of life, just because the warrior gets hit less often. A ranger gets the absolute shit kicked out of him for the first long while, so it stands to reason that he'll have a higher defense. A warrior can overcome this pretty easily by just making sure to fight disengaged until he has been hit enough times that he'd have to stop fighting anyway. This very much reflects my observations from playing a number of warriors who got most of their combat skills fighting in the 'rinth, the Red Storm alleys, and other such places where you don't do unarmed training.
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Post by lyse on Aug 27, 2016 20:47:44 GMT -5
So, how do we feel about someone saying Anaiah's table of hidden skills v. monster types wasn't even in the game on the GDB? It was something that was never put in the actual game and there is only a single offense stat?
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Post by Azerbanjani on Aug 27, 2016 21:48:12 GMT -5
I firmly believe there are two offense stats.
The table.
And base offense.
If you kill nothing but flying creatures and try to fight something ground base you'll hit them decently.
If you try and fight another flyer you'll kick their ass.
This is because your offense table is gucci and base offense is gucci as well.
I think.
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Post by sirra on Aug 28, 2016 13:20:53 GMT -5
So, how do we feel about someone saying Anaiah's table of hidden skills v. monster types wasn't even in the game on the GDB? It was something that was never put in the actual game and there is only a single offense stat? If that were the case, it would contradict my own experience, and what several other long-time veterans have confided in me, over the last ~10-15 years. It's been a fairly open secret, for as long as I can even remember playing Armageddon, that there were different categories of creature-specific offenses. The biggest evidence of this is assassin vs humanoid, and ranger vs animal stuff. Is it possible that they've fucked with it, changed stuff, tweaked it around at times? Sure. Is most any staff claim found on the GDB essentially a shallow notch above (or often even below) agitprop? Yes. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2016 4:32:57 GMT -5
Personally I have found that this offence/defense thing only matters in the long run, as in when you get to the relative end of the grind.
Or when it differs greatly, in the below example:
Player A, twinks on animals only, and has never sparred a humanoid or fought one. And thus hasnt got those small bonuses and -does not- have the extra defense against weapon types.
Player B, twinks in a sparring clan only, and has never fought any sort of animal, thus lacking any animal bonuses, however Player B has got the offensive and defensive bonuses against humanoids regardless of weapon type used.
If both players have got -exactly- the same skills and base offense and stats (this would pretty much never happen but bear with me). Then if they fought each other and it was not RNG affected then Player B would hands down win because of those small bonuses factoring into the hitrolls.
Of course armor choice, and weapon does matter in this case but im not factoring it into it because as I said, if they were even it would matter otherwise not so much.
Edited: For errors in wording.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2016 10:05:08 GMT -5
The bonus given from weapons vs. races skills is minor compared to base offense and weapon skills.
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Post by sirra on Aug 29, 2016 10:53:23 GMT -5
The bonus given from weapons vs. races skills is minor compared to base offense and weapon skills. All I would add to this is that it is typically minor. Less typically, it can be very important. I.E, assassin offense vs humanoids, and mages pre-subguild madness. I can't even comprehend the notion of twinking off/def on an elementalist in an age where you can pretty much combine them with warriors and rangers, or easily get advanced weapons on them. A newbie c-elf assassin with EG agility/strength can kill allanaki guards pretty easily. Just from damage output. At least mine did, ten years ago. He also killed a half-giant guard. In any case, your skills generally only advance until you stop being able to miss. Which is why all the super-killers are those who twinked using outrageous ways to say...I don't know. Raise an advanced weapon past novice. That's how fucked up Armageddon is. Staff is fine with a gicker being able to max out in like ten days, but the idea of a 45 day warrior who finally branches just one advanced weapon skill, somehow getting it up past novice, will get you labeled a twink. It's not even really possible to master a regular weapon without twinking. (Having the best, one in a hundred mentor/sparring partner of all time, who did twink to get there, may allow it now and then). All of my characters very rapidly got to the point where I could not even miss a creature except when blind fighting. |
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Post by lyse on Aug 29, 2016 17:10:56 GMT -5
I don't think they even give a damn if you twink or not anymore. The things I've seen people do over the last couple years would make you blush, Sirra. But you're right, all you have to do is run into an xman out in the wastes and all your hard work is down the drain.
As far as the table, I think it only matters very early on or if you're trying to take on the higher end bestiary.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2016 17:30:01 GMT -5
Funny that most people want great strength for damages but 9/10 times I think that is what is holding people back from getting any really high skills.
I had a breed that started with -terrible- stats. My stupid ass figured max agi on one would be great, and it was but the poors in everything else left me with terrible damage capabilities, however I got misses out the wahzoo for ages. And eventually when others got their small def boosts then they got me having more misses all over again until I aged up a few years and had surprisingly high strength and endurance and could barely ever miss on anyone.
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Post by lyse on Aug 29, 2016 19:15:59 GMT -5
Funny that most people want great strength for damages but 9/10 times I think that is what is holding people back from getting any really high skills. I had a breed that started with -terrible- stats. My stupid ass figured max agi on one would be great, and it was but the poors in everything else left me with terrible damage capabilities, however I got misses out the wahzoo for ages. And eventually when others got their small def boosts then they got me having more misses all over again until I aged up a few years and had surprisingly high strength and endurance and could barely ever miss on anyone. I agree with this. I had a super statted pc that could beat carru and beetles early on and I did find I plateaued much earlier than usual. I found I had to dismount and fight dangerous things to even start notching defense after a certain point. |
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Post by sirra on Aug 29, 2016 23:29:04 GMT -5
Funny that most people want great strength for damages but 9/10 times I think that is what is holding people back from getting any really high skills. I had a breed that started with -terrible- stats. My stupid ass figured max agi on one would be great, and it was but the poors in everything else left me with terrible damage capabilities, however I got misses out the wahzoo for ages. And eventually when others got their small def boosts then they got me having more misses all over again until I aged up a few years and had surprisingly high strength and endurance and could barely ever miss on anyone. It just depends on what your ambition is. If it's something relatively modest (like curb-stomping any carru or gith), then people can get by with a lot lower strength than they imagine. If your goal is to be a meat-eating super killer, top 3 combat hoss duking it with other super twinks, and two or three shotting normal people left and right, then you basically need all your stats to be high as a baseline. People typically shoot for high strength because maxed out Defense, good gear and things like parry/shield use, can make up for any agility. But strength is needed to reel shit left and right. |
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Post by lyse on Aug 30, 2016 0:19:53 GMT -5
Funny that most people want great strength for damages but 9/10 times I think that is what is holding people back from getting any really high skills. I had a breed that started with -terrible- stats. My stupid ass figured max agi on one would be great, and it was but the poors in everything else left me with terrible damage capabilities, however I got misses out the wahzoo for ages. And eventually when others got their small def boosts then they got me having more misses all over again until I aged up a few years and had surprisingly high strength and endurance and could barely ever miss on anyone. It just depends on what your ambition is. If it's something relatively modest (like curb-stomping any carru or gith), then people can get by with a lot lower strength than they imagine. If your goal is to be a meat-eating super killer, top 3 combat hoss duking it with other super twinks, and two or three shotting normal people left and right, then you basically need all your stats to be high as a baseline. People typically shoot for high strength because maxed out Defense, good gear and things like parry/shield use, can make up for any agility. But strength is needed to reel shit left and right. I think he's talking more so talking about starting out with a younger character with somewhere around good strength or slightly less. Getting the misses because no strength bonus, then growing into high strength as an adult, with the extra misses making a more skilled up character. At least thats how I read it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 0:45:28 GMT -5
Started with a min age pc and aged several years.
Started with literally poor in every stat and got super lucky with stat gains to end with Above average in them, I think it mostly was a combination of Luck, and accidental awesomeness.
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Post by radioactivejesus on Sept 3, 2016 10:50:37 GMT -5
Started with a min age pc and aged several years. Started with literally poor in every stat and got super lucky with stat gains to end with Above average in them, I think it mostly was a combination of Luck, and accidental awesomeness. when I roll up a PC with above average in every stat, I usually suicide and hope for a better character. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 2:05:54 GMT -5
Necroing the thread:
Does anyone know if using an archery dummy actually improves archery with misses?
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