mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 1, 2022 15:03:07 GMT -5
Oh look, more distractions. (Playable Thryzn) gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58575.msg0.html Weird how staff are flooding the game with new shit but are completely silent about how they talk to players... when they're not outright lying, that is. I think what makes this particular rushed project even more egregious is the fact that players collaborated with staff on writing the docs. A lot of that work is going to go to waste once everyone realizes the Thryzn receive minimal support and dilute a shrinking playerbase even more than previously. That's undoubtedly going to disappoint the people who worked hard on it.
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baron
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Post by baron on Nov 2, 2022 20:31:26 GMT -5
At this point it's just 30 people, 20 of them on staff or formerly staff, enjoying a little text-based game together. They don't need any set of standards. They're having fun (or not) in their little private RPG campaign.
I do wish we had gotten a real ending to the story. Like if Tuluk had stayed buttoned up, Morins flattened, Red Storm swallowed by the Sea, and Allanak swallowed by Nilizi rinthi, it would justify the current default play style of a few desperate groups of individual surviors living out in the desert.
They could concentrate the "urban" story in Luirs, with Tuluki and Allanaki noble house refugees having to rub shoulders in the last bastion of civilization. Finally earning the name Armageddon for the mud.
What a great sunset for the game that would be. I could see it toddling along for another 20 years in that state, and still be interesting to check in.
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nile
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Post by nile on Nov 3, 2022 3:44:54 GMT -5
I honestly think this guy got mental issues or is just real fucking stuipid. Gaahl was Salt Inna' Wound real name. He's not wrong. Your character was awesome. You have more of a grudge against him, than he has against you. You were the one who took the Two Moons Clan from the days of the founders to the days of an elite mercenary training school. You were the bridge, Moses of the tribe. I've had a grudge ever since he blamed me for his sexual harassment of a player, definitely. Prior to that I had zero ill-will toward staff.
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Post by Azerbanjani on Nov 4, 2022 13:31:10 GMT -5
Staff fixed their toxicity because they uh
Wrote a list of rules on the forums.
We did it we won.
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ibusoe
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Post by ibusoe on Nov 4, 2022 13:33:11 GMT -5
Staff fixed their toxicity because they uh Wrote a list of rules on the forums. We did it we won. LOL, well played Azie. So anyway, I'd like to admit that you're right. Would you be willing to run a tabletop game? Would you be willing to dungeon master?
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Post by Azerbanjani on Nov 4, 2022 14:02:04 GMT -5
You couldn't pay me enough to DM I'd rather just have 4 people choke me down till I die.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 4, 2022 14:04:56 GMT -5
Staff fixed their toxicity because they uh Wrote a list of rules on the forums. We did it we won. Yup. The guidelines aren't inherently a bad idea. The problem is... staff always had these kinds of guidelines internally. They weren't following them. That was the problem, not the lack of guidelines.
The fact that guidelines are needed at all to remind staff to not use the extreme power imbalance between staff and players like a cudgel, is its own issue. Staff culture is bad and toxic, otherwise none of this behavior would be tolerated by the other staff members. Staff gossip about other players, they watch mudsex and laugh at the emotes, they gossip about PCs, they use former staff and players as scapegoats for all of the game's problems. In a work environment, they would be considered bullies and assholes. The posted guidelines just give the appearance that they are doing something about all of that.
Anyone that buys that staff are good now is huffing something.
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Post by Azerbanjani on Nov 4, 2022 17:34:02 GMT -5
Was Shabago following the staff policy when he implied I needed education a 3rd or 4th grader might and called all of my complaints, a lot of them very valid, shitposting and trolling?
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Post by Azerbanjani on Nov 5, 2022 8:09:44 GMT -5
I was thinking about this as I walked around, it relates somewhat to tabletop gaming but also my issue with armageddon.
Gaming has, in general, moved to more narrative focus whether the people drawing pictures of tiefling feet have noticed.
You can see this in most advice categories and GM advice sections in tabletops. At it's worse it's this silly ass idea of 'Approve everything! Say yes to everything!' which logistically and story wise can not work, at it's most neutral it's usually setting expectations and a simple discussion where you break down things into 'I would like to accomplish X, I was thinking I could do Y to do that' and going from there.
At it's best you get things like Blades in the Dark, where the player dictates their desired outcome, how they accomplish it, and the storyteller works with the player to establish how difficult/dangerous the task might be and the possible success they even have.
Example of what I mean sort of with this: (This is a hypothetical)
Imagine I'm playing a rough and tumble enforcer and I'm in a bar in the 'Rinth. Let's say it isn't either the Mantis or the Folley, some third-npc-bar. I'm standing at the bar, having a drink, itching to get back out on the street and beat the shit out of someone.
Staff animates an NPC making a swipe at my purse, grabs a few coins, and runs off.
I grab their arm (Likely in emote because god knows how code goes), and head butt them to the floor and take my coins back. I then go back to my drink. Staff then animates 4 toughs who then attack me because I went against their godly whims.
You can see stuff related to staff not liking their narrative being fucked with in many ways. Their control of plots most obviously, but even things such as Shalooonsh suggesting you 'roleplay being stolen from and junk items' as a foreigner in Tuluk. Why is it always up to the player to shit on their character but not ever have success, no matter how narrative?
Armageddon is notoriously difficult (Because staff refuses to fucking talk to you, one of my requests on a simple clarification regarding the flammability of fucking oil went 1-2 weeks unanswered and I just gave up on dealing with them) with this kind of thing.
Back to Blades: You've just completed a heist. You gained some heat (Basically, attention) so your activity in downtime to go reduce that heat. So you tell the Storyteller 'I'm going to go to the area we just heisted from (A bad part of town), and smash a bunch of windows to show the locals we aren't to be fucked with so they don't snitch'. An Armageddon Storyteller who responds to this wish all without a moments care, is flabbergasted! Violence to quiet someone? THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE. He animates -insert silly amount of toughs here- and runs them off. Then has a Templar on their ass. Then-
Meanwhile this is a suggested scenario in the Blades Book, and you can actually talk that out pretty easily (The entire thing is ONE ROLL). It makes sense narratively and when you think about it, and don't just insta-react to the situation, and it helps establish a character type. You could have done a variety of ways to reduce heat. You could have threatened local leaders (Instead of everyone) in a more subtle way, you could have passed some change around, you could have spread rumors, you could have broken into the local garrison and snuck some false documents in implicating a non-existent gang (That might be worth a score instead though). But you established 'My gang is a bunch of thugs, lets go do thug things' and you established how you'll do it and the desired outcome.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 5, 2022 9:44:59 GMT -5
Armageddon's never been a particularly good storytelling game. Nor is any permadeath mud where griefing is allowed and staff regularly engage in it at worst, or allow it to stand at best.
imo in Armageddon's current state it's easier to think of the game as a club where a few weird nerds get to think they're powerful and everyone else is just an unwitting pawn. The recent changes just keep the party going for a little while longer before everything crashes down. It's not a surprise that staff want things to run their way under these circumstances. The fact that more and more sponsored roles over the years have to be "resource NPCs" due to a genuine lack of interest from the playerbase in just being a puppet for staff whims further compounds this.
The reason staff don't have good answers for how to support player narratives (or player response to staff narratives) is not only because staff want to feel in charge, though. It's because, as a body, they genuinely have no idea what they're doing. Some individuals are good roleplayers, others are good writers, but in general they don't know how to work as a team. They can't do consistency. They have burned through all their talent. This is the last group of people available for the job. The game is little more than a reanimated corpse on borrowed time.
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Post by Azerbanjani on Nov 5, 2022 10:08:04 GMT -5
Staff has outright said, either in the notes that were leaked or maybe publicly, they view writing for Arm stories like writing a novel.
It's why the game just doesn't hit or do the things I want it to do. No one shows up to the table wanting to be Amos the bread seller (JK You think you...you could OWN a bakery? LOLLLLL You're POOOR YOU CAN'T DO THAT)
I don't think Armageddon necessarily needs to be as open as Tabletop, though certain aspects would certainly do well to pull from that, but it represents particularly what I don't like about what happens in the Game.
I show up, I bring a plot, I expect the plot to be looked at and considered or worked around to actually do said plot. That's the basics of Tabletop (Though in Tabletop the usual is you show up, a plot is suggested or provided, and you're the one that needs to fuck around with the plot in such a way). The problem with this is staff doesn't provide plots half the time and if they do, they likely don't involve you or only apply to a niche group of people. So you go 'Okay, I'll do the other thing and provide a plot to others'. So you bring something up to staff, the people who want to make the game work apparently, and they ghost you over it or outright deny it. Now your only option is to make your own fun with limited systems and commands, which isn't fun. So you don't do plots with anyone.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 5, 2022 10:31:05 GMT -5
I've said it before and will continue to say it, but if games with about the same sized playerbase as Armageddon or bigger can figure out how to support collaborative storytelling, with a staff team 25-50% of the size of Armageddon's, then Armageddon can figure it out. It just doesn't care to. It is content with being a desert survival simulator with an outdated pose system where people occasionally try to roleplay.
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jenki
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Post by jenki on Nov 5, 2022 11:21:19 GMT -5
"Show, don't tell." it's the number one rule in writing. It's ironic that staff are doing a lot of telling, on the GDB, making apologies, etc. It isn't the first time this has happened. What staff needs to show players by actually doing what they say, having their walk match their talk. Ironically, as mehtastic already said, staff had self governing rules previously. I'm not sure what's different than before but the promises seem a little hollow to me, but I guess it doesn't matter to me, I'm just a by standard.
I started thinking about motivations staff/players. Ultimately, in an online game, it's all for entertainment.
Players want to be immersed in an engaging roleplaying environment that's consistent/realistic (non-contradicting). Ultimately players want to have fun. Without staff to create, administrate, maintain, and animate the game world, there's no game. Players depend on the staff or they don't play, either because the game doesn't exist, or because it doesn't meet their expectations. Essentially they need the game to exist, and they want to have fun, if neither of these conditions aren't met, players don't play.
What's Staff's motivation? This is the one that's more difficult to figure out, and is going to be different for each staff member. Possibly motivating factors could be: Desire to create, desire to provide fun for others, desire to have power over others.... please chime in with other motives.
The desire to create can be fulfilled with or without anyone else involved, Staff could create a mud and never let anyone play, write documentation, write NPCs and objects, etc. Often times staff even allow players to do this, even "hire" builders from the playerbase to do this. This tells me that this isn't that common of a motive for staff.
Many staff, at some point, derive their motivation from entertaining the players. Staff do this by doing RPTs, animations, etc. I think this is one of the major motives for someone who fulfills the staff role. This can be a lot of work and staffers often burn out or have to take breaks.
Much of the time staff spend just monitoring and watching players. This can be a great source of entertainment, watching and evening having the world react to players (either good or bad). Often staff fall into the role of an enforcer of police where they react to players in an attempt to either make the world react realistically, or as a form of punishment. Generally the results of this are negative, rarely positive on players.
If staff want players to play (staff don't need players, they could be staff of an empty game and continue to build it like some kind of model train set), but if they want people to play with them with their toys, they should consider being better hosts. People have better things to do than play their game and put up with assholes hiding behind a curtain like the wizard of oz who forget why they are on staff. If they are there to maintain a collection of code, or entertain the players.
When I first started playing the game back in 2000, someone told me that players are there to entertain the staff, and at the time I didn't agree but over time it I've come to agree. <style></style>
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 7, 2022 6:40:26 GMT -5
Armers: We would like staff to apologize and communicate better with players Staff: Here is how we plan on communicating better with players Armers: Cool, how about the apology part Staff: We are going to lock the thread in 4 days
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 9, 2022 17:51:40 GMT -5
So as promised, the thread is closed. What did we learn?
1: Player numbers are up, by a surprising amount. ~150 players/week before the thread started, ~165/week now. Drawing back returning players through game changes is easy enough, keeping them around will be difficult. Historically staff have always fumbled the ball at this stage, but who knows? Maybe they'll get it right this time. 57th time's the charm. I'll post more about player numbers next year, when there's data to work with.
2: Staff are hilariously bad at writing apologies, or unsurprisingly good at writing non-apology apologies, depending on how you want to look at it. "It sucks you feel that way about what happened, because staff were trying their best at the time and your character was kinda asking for it" isn't an apology btw.
3: Staff got their best licks in against the players just before the """new""" staff guidelines on communication were conceived and ultimately, released. Top baseless attacks include: - Shabago declaring that three trolls were trying to ruin the thread and, by extension, destroy the game (and no posts were removed, so no actual trolls) - Halaster banning Delirium, calling her a toxic person and then proceeding to reverse the ban after a sharp outcry from multiple players (maybe staff don't have as much power as they like to think?) - Shalooonsh claiming to have "receipts" on Is Friday (staff just blackmail players now? always have been.)
I suspect things will just be the same as always.
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