Jeshin
GDB Superstar
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Post by Jeshin on Apr 26, 2015 17:45:22 GMT -5
Quick addition - If staff tried (assuming they don't already) to limit PC death to proper IC reactions with no OOC consideration than eventually characters would get old enough that they'd desire a cool death (like RGS)! Thus if you invade the gith mesa, yeah you gonna die even if you have a large force you will probably take losses. There's also the old, newbie does something stupid and the oldbie goes to hold back NPCs while buying the newbie time and potentially dying for their heroics. Also totally cool... So you see eventually people will end up using RPTs to kill themselves off... O.O or maybe they do already, OMG.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 17:46:33 GMT -5
id say as long as wuz vry good ic reasons and deths were not forced on specific peeplez
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 17:46:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure why staff have to kill during RPTs to make them fun and I'm not sure why that murder has to be a PC. To me and my PC killing off an NPC (that I care about) is just as effective as offing a PC and unless the dying PC player has a love of dying (some do, not kidding or being sarcastic, see RGS posts) than it also provides a better experience for all players who participated. So the statement that staff can OOCly be like we are 100% going to kill some bitches in this RPT to make it serious and fun for the participants can be accomplished with out the need to arbitrarily kill players as a way to inform other players the gravity of the situation they are in. That isn't to say that RPTs just killing someone because they're stupid or incredibly unlucky isn't okay. I believe that is an aspect, but I also believe that staff should try and minimize that. Why? Players already kill each other or die to NPCs at a pretty prodigious rate. You could be OOCly knowledgable enough to survive barring bad luck but bad luck happens a lot. Seriously there is a reason that longer lived PCs basically start ICly going, I'm not going to remember this guys name until 3-4 IG months later because odds are he's going to die. People die in ARM a lot. You don't need to artifically boost it when you have vnpc/npc victims that can be given emotional investment and then killed off as needed. So you think staff should go out of their way to make sure they don't kill anyone in RPT's? Or you don't think staff should represent how dangerous the world is through these RPT's by killing people? It's fairly easy to be long lived and avoid the things that can kill you through code(NPC's, Falls, deathtraps, all easy to deal with when you know they're there). If you're not pissing anyone off and giving them a reason to kill you I'm not exactly sure how you can die unless staff made it a bit more dangerous here and there. And there's quite a few of those types who just simply don't make PC enemies and end up living a long time.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Apr 26, 2015 17:47:12 GMT -5
I posted a clarifying post while you were typing RGS.
EDIT - Double clarification. I am fine with PCs dying. I want to avoid them dying because staff made mistakes in balancing difficulty or combat code. I believe that trips into the Grey where we know kryl swarm and the waves get bigger and bigger overtime should be able to kill people. Especially if they stay forever and don't pull back at any point. I believe that if you have an RPT in the silt sea that if you want to have a silt horror bump the raft and knock someone off it, have that someone be an NPC, unless a PC is intentionally emoting being in a situation that would make them open to being a red-shirt death due to a silt horror emote.
So!
Go into the Grey where Kryl are with the intent of fighting them or exploring an area you know/don't know might be dangerous? Kill em if they should die due to the IC reality of their situation.
Go to the silt sea on a skimmer where a silt horror is echoed bumping the skimmer. Have an NPC wilhelm scream and fall off the skimmer to die in the silt, not a PC. Have the PCs die when the silt horror gets onto the skimmer and eats all of them.
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Post by lyse on Apr 26, 2015 17:51:24 GMT -5
This is starting to boggle my mind. So now we're wondering why staff kills people on rpts at all?
Are we still talking about Armageddon the game based off the dnd game Darksun?
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Post by BitterFlashback on Apr 26, 2015 17:51:29 GMT -5
I posted a clarifying post while you were typing RGS. Ditto. This is starting to boggle my mind. So now we're wondering why staff kills people on rpts at all? Are we still talking about Armageddon the game based off the dnd game Darksun? No, that's off-topic conversation. Here, I'll copy what I said in clarification to RGS (who I do believe is the real one). It's a what-if scenario to explain the question better by eliminating the Arm context it keeps getting improperly read as being in:
If it helps you answer the question, let's treat it as a what-if for a MUD we're planning to make. BitterGunslingerMUD Alpha is on the horizon and we're trying to decide how we're going to handle our playerbase. Someone mentions there's always a risk one clan may eat the whole player base if we don't cap it. So we make a policy that you can't join a clan you had a previous character in within one month of that character's death. Then someone points out that if the clan leaders are good enough, they can probably keep most of their hapless noobs alive for a while. So then we wind up talking about if we'd ever design a non-optional quest that is intended to wipe out most of the clan, knowing our policy would force all of the slain to try something new. You're asked if you think that is appropriate. What would you answer?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 17:55:26 GMT -5
Here's my problem with that question. Staff isn't going to run a RPT for just one reason, ever. Could killing off large portions of PC's be a large reason why they're doing the RPT, sure, but it's never going to be the only reason. The question is more focused on if you find it acceptable or appropriate to have an RPT being done with the specific goal of reducing a group's/area's population. The existence of other reasons they write into the RPT for that clan or other clans isn't important to the question. I also need to stress again I used the word "staff" because this question is not specific to Armageddon, despite the interpretations of recent events there leading to the question being asked. If it helps you answer the question, let's treat it as a what-if for a MUD we're planning to make. BitterGunslingerMUD Alpha is on the horizon and we're trying to decide how we're going to handle our playerbase. Someone mentions there's always a risk one clan may eat the whole player base if we don't cap it. So we make a policy that you can't join a clan you had a previous character in within one month of that character's death. Then someone points out that if the clan leaders are good enough, they can probably keep most of their hapless noobs alive for a while. So then we wind up talking about if we'd ever design a non-optional quest that is intended to wipe out most of the clan, knowing our policy would force all of the slain to try something new. You're asked if you think that is appropriate. What would you answer? Well my first question would be "Why does this clan get all the attention, how can we do that for other clans first before killing a bunch of people." I'd never make a non-optional quest. That sounds absurd. Even more absurd if I plan on killing a lot of people. So, no, I don't think that's appropriate. I do think it's okay to provide an optional RPT though(which all of Arms are) and then make it dangerous enough that I know people are bound to die. No, I don't think targeting specific PC's to die would be okay. Because there's no way to separate that sort of instance from the idea of favoritism, or the idea of punishment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 17:56:44 GMT -5
Man I can't keep up, what is this, nobody posts this fast on the GDB... It's like my super powers are nullified here.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Apr 26, 2015 17:57:31 GMT -5
All right, cool. We're on the same page, and your vote would be "No" to the poll question. I also like your side-answers; I've ranted about how people should look at a clan that works and imitate it in a few threads now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 18:00:59 GMT -5
I'll add that vote to the poll because I haven't voted yet.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 18:02:13 GMT -5
I posted a clarifying post while you were typing RGS. EDIT - Double clarification. I am fine with PCs dying. I want to avoid them dying because staff made mistakes in balancing difficulty or combat code. I believe that trips into the Grey where we know kryl swarm and the waves get bigger and bigger overtime should be able to kill people. Especially if they stay forever and don't pull back at any point. I believe that if you have an RPT in the silt sea that if you want to have a silt horror bump the raft and knock someone off it, have that someone be an NPC, unless a PC is intentionally emoting being in a situation that would make them open to being a red-shirt death due to a silt horror emote. So! Go into the Grey where Kryl are with the intent of fighting them or exploring an area you know/don't know might be dangerous? Kill em if they should die due to the IC reality of their situation. Go to the silt sea on a skimmer where a silt horror is echoed bumping the skimmer. Have an NPC wilhelm scream and fall off the skimmer to die in the silt, not a PC. Have the PCs die when the silt horror gets onto the skimmer and eats all of them. I like this post because I've always thought NPC's could be put to better use in RPT's.
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mesuinu
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
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Post by mesuinu on Apr 26, 2015 18:15:18 GMT -5
Killing NPCs for flavor is fine if it makes sense for them to be on said RPT, but there's no replacement for the gut punch that comes with the fall of Illustrious Leader Alice or Best Friend Bob. I've never seen a killable NPC with any sort of character development PCs were invested in, which means, in most cases, said dead NPC isn't going to be driving much by way of plots post-death. Dead NPCs also don't quite add that same sense of danger to an RPT that comes with losing a PC from an OOC point of view.
I am not condoning using RPTs to cull. IMO the only time they should be designed to TPK is if there's an incoming pwipe or some similar circumstance, like that clan being retired or something. But I am condoning dangerous, high-risk RPTs where deaths are expected because Arm is a shitty place to live in and those kinds of RPTs have their place in it.
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delerak
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PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
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Post by delerak on Apr 26, 2015 22:12:38 GMT -5
Fuck yes. Why wouldn't you? It's your job as staff to provide realism and animate the world not to get players killed because of your own incompetence.
This is all very subjective though. If a veteran RPI player is roaming around in a virtual area doing twinkish powergaming, and that area hasn't been loaded with NPCs? Fine load those NPCs up and let them do their job as being flagged aggressive. But if some noob is wandering around is it really necessary? Of course the world should react the same to everybody but that certainly is not the case at Arm.
There are numerous horror stories of PCs that are long lived and strong getting wtf pwned by a staffers "realism". My buddy Matt was playing a maxxed warrior (Kune) way back in the day and ran into a room with 20ish gortok. He managed to kill them all and I'm not sure how but it upset whoever loaded that many npcs to kill him so as he was walking back to the city he was send a message by staff about how unrealistic it was for him to spam kick on the gortoks (back then kick did like 80+ damage or something) it may have been a bug but either way he was eventually killed by 10 loaded halflings that were maxxed out and guarding the exits. I should try to get him to come post his stories but I doubt he'd have an interest.
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Apr 26, 2015 22:19:22 GMT -5
Fuck yes. Why wouldn't you? It's your job as staff to provide realism and animate the world not to get players killed because of your own incompetence. This is all very subjective though. If a veteran RPI player is roaming around in a virtual area doing twinkish powergaming, and that area hasn't been loaded with NPCs? Fine load those NPCs up and let them do their job as being flagged aggressive. But if some noob is wandering around is it really necessary? Of course the world should react the same to everybody but that certainly is not the case at Arm. There are numerous horror stories of PCs that are long lived and strong getting wtf pwned by a staffers "realism". My buddy Matt was playing a maxxed warrior (Kune) way back in the day and ran into a room with 20ish gortok. He managed to kill them all and I'm not sure how but it upset whoever loaded that many npcs to kill him so as he was walking back to the city he was send a message by staff about how unrealistic it was for him to spam kick on the gortoks (back then kick did like 80+ damage or something) it may have been a bug but either way he was eventually killed by 10 loaded halflings that were maxxed out and guarding the exits. I should try to get him to come post his stories but I doubt he'd have an interest. I recall Kune Kirran fondly.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Apr 26, 2015 22:27:59 GMT -5
I wasn't playing at the time but we hung out a lot back then and he would tell me all about it. Pretty sure I was banned at the time and working on my game.
He was given some really weird items and stuff (some kind of halfling bracer that was a parasitic armor that added +50 hp), but he junked it and I think that's what ticked off the staff. This is all very vague recollection though, I'd have to confirm it with him.
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