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Post by samosforpresident on Jan 15, 2020 12:46:53 GMT -5
If things like Quick, Shattered, The Plainsman still existed atleast there'd be something to do. Currently favoritism seems to revolve around mudsex and mentally unstable health concerns. Like, honestly, if there was as much effort and focus to building world story as there seems to mudsex. This mud would be a blockbuster movie script already.
Give somebody something that isn't the D or the V. Bring the crazy shit back. Open Tuluk and show what the fuck happened to it. DO SOMETHING STORYWISE. Because obviously players don't have the support to.
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Jan 15, 2020 12:49:57 GMT -5
Before someone cries about Armageddon staff being singled out.
Many many people in both MUSHes and MUDs have formed the opinion that staff can play NPCs if they want to play a character because of past abuses (across games) or to prevent abuses from occuring in the first place.
When I was trying to get Project Redshift off the ground staff couldn't play PCs. It was in the original doc.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Jan 15, 2020 12:55:31 GMT -5
Before someone cries about Armageddon staff being singled out. Many many people in both MUSHes and MUDs have formed the opinion that staff can play NPCs if they want to play a character because of past abuses (across games) or to prevent abuses from occuring in the first place. When I was trying to get Project Redshift off the ground staff couldn't play PCs. It was in the original doc. No one is singling out staff. They run the game. It's literally their game (at least the 3 producers I guess). They're going to be held accountable when player numbers drop, or changes come down, or policies change. They are the ones doing it not the players.
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Post by samosforpresident on Jan 15, 2020 12:55:37 GMT -5
The only reason "staff" are singled out is because they control the game. And if they want nothing to be done in it and want to see it roll over and croak in the boring manifestation it currently is, then "they" should let someone else take the wheel and bring fresh ideas and policies to the table.
I'm looking at one particular el presidente in particular. Drop the fucking ego and the pride and let someone else breath some damned life into the game.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Jan 15, 2020 12:55:48 GMT -5
agree with u purg and del but are we sure the player realm bennies arent the main reason these staff role calls are getting answered in the 1st place because if the bureacracy nergal talk abt that needs lots of staff isnt changing and the player realm bennies are the big reason for ppl joining then taking them away could make things even worse for the staff left trying to make things work after other staff fuck off and no one fills the open slots I know it's why some of them probably stayed -- they probably couldn't ever get the karma for sorcerers if they just remained players. If you ask me, asking someone to staff and further the game *without* bennies would be a good way to see who actually cared about the game. "You get nothing from being staff besides helping the players shape the world." I'd be okay with that. Maybe others wouldn't. But I think that'd serve as a decent filter for those who wanted to make the game better and those who were mostly self serving. i mean if ur supporting it as a way to speed up dismantling the bureacracy they have that nergal says requires more ppl for it work than other systems do then sure for them to do that voluntarily thatll prob require storytellers taking it on themselves to abuse the privs to the pt where overlords shoot themselves in the foot by taking away the bennies and by that gutting the staff recruiting numbers they need to keep that system working
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Jan 15, 2020 12:56:41 GMT -5
Something else you need to consider is Arm is not the same game. People who want Quick, Shattered or Plainsman back won't get it. That nonsense drove as many players away as it involved. Arm is still a great RP game and I stand by that as I've played for the past 6 months and seen what it has to offer. If I saw insanely powerful PCs/avatars running around I'd be gone in a fucking heart beat.
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Jan 15, 2020 12:57:22 GMT -5
To clarify my post is stating that the idea that staff shouldn't play PCs but be restricted to NPCs is not exclusive to Armageddon and its staff. This means someone who wanted to argue that staff should be able to do whatever and that it's just players being blah blah blah unreasonable blah blah blah goblin bile needs to remember plenty of other games have discussed this policy too.
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Post by lechuck on Jan 15, 2020 13:18:42 GMT -5
A big part of the issue with people joining staff in bad faith is that they receive maximum karma, forever. It's a perk of joining staff. You simply become a max karma player in one fell swoop, even if you weren't halfway there when you joined, and you keep it when you quit staff. I'd wager that a not-insignificant percentage of people who join staff do so for that reason alone, even if they convince themselves otherwise. Change this.
I believe staff should be allowed to play PCs, though. They can't stay in touch with the game if they don't play it at all. While they shouldn't be allowed to monitor their PC's enemies or have five concurrent PCs (or three or whatever the fuck it is), I wouldn't want the game to be run exclusively by people who don't play it. Having staffed on other RPIs, I know that there are perspectives that you just don't get if you don't play a mortal character. I would go so far as to say that a game like this can't work if the people running it are not experiencing it from a player's point of view. You wouldn't run a restaurant without ever tasting the food. But they should be barred from restricted roles, or at least not count as an occupant of those. I was appalled to hear that two out of the three permitted sorcs/psis were played by staff. That's inexcusable.
Noone benefits from having staff that isn't passionate about the game. The #1 way to erode staff's passion for the game is to bar them from playing it. Their mortal avatars should not get in the way of player endeavors, in terms of how many x is allowed at a time and things like that, but you really don't want an RPI run by a whole crew of Nessalins who don't give a flying fuck about anything that goes on.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Jan 15, 2020 13:40:32 GMT -5
A big part of the issue with people joining staff in bad faith is that they receive maximum karma, forever. It's a perk of joining staff. You simply become a max karma player in one fell swoop, even if you weren't halfway there when you joined, and you keep it when you quit staff. I'd wager that a not-insignificant percentage of people who join staff do so for that reason alone, even if they convince themselves otherwise. Change this. I believe staff should be allowed to play PCs, though. They can't stay in touch with the game if they don't play it at all. While they shouldn't be allowed to monitor their PC's enemies or have five concurrent PCs (or three or whatever the fuck it is), I wouldn't want the game to be run exclusively by people who don't play it. Having staffed on other RPIs, I know that there are perspectives that you just don't get if you don't play a mortal character. I would go so far as to say that a game like this can't work if the people running it are not experiencing it from a player's point of view. You wouldn't run a restaurant without ever tasting the food. But they should be barred from restricted roles, or at least not count as an occupant of those. I was appalled to hear that two out of the three permitted sorcs/psis were played by staff. That's inexcusable. Noone benefits from having staff that isn't passionate about the game. The #1 way to erode staff's passion for the game is to bar them from playing it. Their mortal avatars should not get in the way of player endeavors, in terms of how many x is allowed at a time and things like that, but you really don't want an RPI run by a whole crew of Nessalins who don't give a flying fuck about anything that goes on. Animating NPCs is playing the game. What could you possibly glean as a staffer by playing a PC that you couldn't do just by watching the current player base? I'll take 10 nessalins over naiona's and halasters that want to make arm their playground any day. I can't think of one example where a staff member benefits by having a PC. It doesn't open your eyes to some amorphous understanding, or enlighten you in some way. It corrupts you as a staffer, forces you to engage in a conflict of interest, double standards and creates biases that last for years and years.
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Post by shakes on Jan 15, 2020 14:10:48 GMT -5
I am surprised that staff are allowed to still play PC's and even more shock that they're allowed to play the top roles (and occupy them). Horrendously shocked that they're allowed to be on with their wiz AND their PC at the same time and use their wiz to locate other players and scan for threats and such.
That actually kind of pisses me off. Seidhr ran me through the fucking ringer that one time because he THOUGHT I might have cheated and told someone where to find someone else, before the logs revealed that I'd Wayed before I died. But meanwhile all of them are literally doing it all the time? And killing people?
That policy needs to end. Right away.
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Post by lechuck on Jan 15, 2020 14:16:07 GMT -5
You can't begin to compare the experiences of animating NPCs and playing an actual PC. That shouldn't even need to be explained. You don't need to bring up the two most self-serving imms in the history of the game in order to make your point. That's just disingenuous. If noone on staff plays mortal characters, they lose touch with the game and the changes they make to it, so it's important that at least some of them do. There's always going to be some that don't want to, but it should never be disallowed.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Jan 15, 2020 14:21:32 GMT -5
You can't begin to compare the experiences of animating NPCs and playing an actual PC. That shouldn't even need to be explained. You don't need to bring up the two most self-serving imms in the history of the game in order to make your point. That's just disingenuous. If noone on staff plays mortal characters, they lose touch with the game and the changes they make to it, so it's important that at least some of them do. There's always going to be some that don't want to, but it should never be disallowed. It does more harm than good. I just don't understand how you lose touch with the game? That's like saying a DM has to play D&D every now and then before being a DM. It's not fucking rocket science Lechuk. It's an adventure game. It's a roleplaying game. You run stories and plots. It's really not that complicated. It's not some grand epic story. It's a fantasy game for people to escape to after work or to kill some time. People overthink this shit way too much.
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Post by samosforpresident on Jan 15, 2020 14:22:53 GMT -5
Or listen to player feedback and value it?
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Post by shakes on Jan 15, 2020 14:23:33 GMT -5
To clarify my post is stating that the idea that staff shouldn't play PCs but be restricted to NPCs is not exclusive to Armageddon and its staff. This means someone who wanted to argue that staff should be able to do whatever and that it's just players being blah blah blah unreasonable blah blah blah goblin bile needs to remember plenty of other games have discussed this policy too. No other game I've played has allowed staff to play. Some had policies where you could store your imm for a period of time and play a PC. Everyone needs a break now and then. But the concept of playing both at the same time and freely using your wiz account to support your PC? That's atrocious. First, it's probably why nothing of note in Armageddon ever gets fucking done. On the numerous other games I've been staff on, I had STAFF LEVEL SHIT TO DO. Building, coding, whatever. I became staff because I was interested in doing that staff level shit. In fact, being staff generally killed my interest in playing a regular character. You can't enjoy the puppet show once you've seen the strings. But second, they're literally fucking cheating and allowing each other to do things that they'd ban a regular player for. That is the most blatant bullshittery I have ever seen in any mud. And third, where's the accountability for it? Not too long ago, someone murdered me for some shit that was IN MY BIO and that I'd never mentioned. Was that staff? If I had filed a complaint about it ... I can imagine them just having a good old chuckle about it, because they all do it and all think it's fine and normal. They're the special privileged class. They can do whatever the fuck they want. I appreciate the staff insight, but what it's revealed to me is that ... the regular players are here for THEIR amusement. We're their prey or their sex slaves. Sometimes both. What a toxic fucking shithole.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Jan 15, 2020 14:23:57 GMT -5
reposted because i fucked up somewhere I believe staff should be allowed to play PCs, though. They can't stay in touch with the game if they don't play it at all. While they shouldn't be allowed to monitor their PC's enemies or have five concurrent PCs (or three or whatever the fuck it is), I wouldn't want the game to be run exclusively by people who don't play it. Having staffed on other RPIs, I know that there are perspectives that you just don't get if you don't play a mortal character. I would go so far as to say that a game like this can't work if the people running it are not experiencing it from a player's point of view. You wouldn't run a restaurant without ever tasting the food. But they should be barred from restricted roles, or at least not count as an occupant of those. I was appalled to hear that two out of the three permitted sorcs/psis were played by staff. That's inexcusable. Noone benefits from having staff that isn't passionate about the game. The #1 way to erode staff's passion for the game is to bar them from playing it. Their mortal avatars should not get in the way of player endeavors, in terms of how many x is allowed at a time and things like that, but you really don't want an RPI run by a whole crew of Nessalins who don't give a flying fuck about anything that goes on. lets meet halfway with the following idea staff get encouraged and expected to animate their clans npc leaders more when it comes to handling most major ic communications to leader pcs and to show more of an occasional presence and leave the ooc comms stuff offline where it belongs as before they can also animate their clans npcs to interact with players in numerous ways as they like staff are only permitted to play pcs that fulfill limited nongamebreaker purposes and rolecalls such as gladiators tuluk saboteurs and others that require rp ability and trust to execute some of the railroadier plots and good-in-theory-but-cringier-in-practice theme ideas that players wont have to worry abt leaving unfulfilled both of these let staff continue to play literally as much as they like and taste the food while removing the key factor causing them to play in bad faith which is identifying too much with their chars and overinvesting their ego into their fates
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