delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Jan 15, 2020 14:26:43 GMT -5
To clarify my post is stating that the idea that staff shouldn't play PCs but be restricted to NPCs is not exclusive to Armageddon and its staff. This means someone who wanted to argue that staff should be able to do whatever and that it's just players being blah blah blah unreasonable blah blah blah goblin bile needs to remember plenty of other games have discussed this policy too. No other game I've played has allowed staff to play. Some had policies where you could store your imm for a period of time and play a PC. Everyone needs a break now and then. But the concept of playing both at the same time and freely using your wiz account to support your PC? That's atrocious. First, it's probably why nothing of note in Armageddon ever gets fucking done. On the numerous other games I've been staff on, I had STAFF LEVEL SHIT TO DO. Building, coding, whatever. I became staff because I was interested in doing that staff level shit. In fact, being staff generally killed my interest in playing a regular character. You can't enjoy the puppet show once you've seen the strings. But second, they're literally fucking cheating and allowing each other to do things that they'd ban a regular player for. That is the most blatant bullshittery I have ever seen in any mud. And third, where's the accountability for it? Not too long ago, someone murdered me for some shit that was IN MY BIO and that I'd never mentioned. Was that staff? If I had filed a complaint about it ... I can imagine them just having a good old chuckle about it, because they all do it and all think it's fine and normal. They're the special privileged class. They can do whatever the fuck they want. I appreciate the staff insight, but what it's revealed to me is that ... the regular players are here for THEIR amusement. We're their prey or their sex slaves. Sometimes both. What a toxic fucking shithole. Lol.. your response is hilarious, did you not know this? This has been like a well known fact about Arm for years. I made a video back in 2013 about it. |
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vex
Clueless newb
Posts: 133
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Post by vex on Jan 15, 2020 14:32:25 GMT -5
I am of the unpopular opinion that staff shouldn't play at all, besides NPCs. My concern with this, is a loss of perspective.
If you aren't playing the game you're developing, or managing, how could you possibly hope to understand the needs and motivations, of your players? I wouldn't begrudge a staff, any staff, for wanting to play the game they're investing their time into, nor do I feel they should be held to any higher standard than the average player, when doing so. If you're forever at arms length, watching others enjoy the fruits of your labors, its inevitable, that you'll have some feel bads about it, that will in turn come out in your actions and behaviors.
I don't believe "full karma, forever", multiple characters, or ANY staff at all, having access to live info streams of IC happenings, whilst playing a PC is reasonable, all of which is essentially covered in your posts. It leads to bad things, in bad faith.
But as a player, I would want you, as a staffer, to play and enjoy the game, the same way I play and enjoy the game, both because you deserve to enjoy it and because I need you to understand, at the ground level, how changes you implement and the things you do, impact players, as a player. If staff can only perceive the game from a staff pov, in the here and now, how could they possibly hope to comprehend, the needs of their players?
Sorry to say, simply asking most players, won't get your a real answer. You need to be down there in the mud with them, engaged with them, see the stories they're telling and the activities they're pursuing, to get a real grasp of where people want things to go, or what interests them, by being a part of it. Snoop, will never connect you to player stories and give insights into their motivations, like being a part of it will. |
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Post by shakes on Jan 15, 2020 14:36:23 GMT -5
I literally did not know this.
I've been staff on four other big muds, some are still around. And it would have been UNTHINKABLE on those. People got banned over even trying to do it. To me, it's like hearing doctors discussing how they routinely rape their patients and it's not only normal but it's approved of.
I've never been closer to quitting this game than I am now. This is a bigger deal to me than sexual harassment on staff (though they're weirdly enough the same sort of power-tripping behavior). Staff should IMMEDIATELY address this on the GDB and make a change to this policy.
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Post by shakes on Jan 15, 2020 14:40:18 GMT -5
I am of the unpopular opinion that staff shouldn't play at all, besides NPCs. My concern with this, is a loss of perspective.
If you aren't playing the game you're developing, or managing, how could you possibly hope to understand the needs and motivations, of your players? I wouldn't begrudge a staff, any staff, for wanting to play the game they're investing their time into, nor do I feel they should be held to any higher standard than the average player, when doing so. If you're forever at arms length, watching others enjoy the fruits of your labors, its inevitable, that you'll have some feel bads about it, that will in turn come out in your actions and behaviors.
...
Sorry to say, simply asking most players, won't get your a real answer. You need to be down there in the mud with them, engaged with them, see the stories they're telling and the activities they're pursuing, to get a real grasp of where people want things to go, or what interests them, by being a part of it. Snoop, will never connect you to player stories and give insights into their motivations, like being a part of it will. Your logic is flawed in its very premise. Do you think that with their max-karma sorcs and psions, gifted with all sorts of high-end equipment they wiz-loaded, bolstered and supported by not only their wizlevel character but also their wizlevel channels and friends are even remotely playing the same game I am? Struggling to survive scrab and tarantula and being pkilled for limited reasons by some bored twink? They literally ARE losing touch with their game because of the cheating way they play it. |
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Post by samosforpresident on Jan 15, 2020 14:46:09 GMT -5
I agree. Just last week I was trying to figure out how to improve things and after today, looking at this, I'm ready to hang it up.
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Post by shakes on Jan 15, 2020 14:51:08 GMT -5
Look ... Armageddon didn't evolve in a vacuum. I started playing my first mud in like 1993. The mud community at large has evolved standards. Muds who followed those standards, or at least tried to, survived. Those that didn't, failed.
If I went over to Mud Connector and posted the revelation that staff on Armageddon not only play high-level avatars where they have omnipotent viewpoints of the world through multiplaying with their wiz-level, but that they're also allowed to KILL YOU ... would you as a newbie try this game?
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jenki
Clueless newb
Posts: 156 
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Post by jenki on Jan 15, 2020 14:55:42 GMT -5
In order for staff to not play the game, staff would need to come from somewhere else. It's like saying, "Hey you like cookies so much, want to learn to make them? Oh by the way.... you can never eat cookies again!"
Because the staff recruitment pool is the player base, staff would need to come from some outside source. It's possible there are players willing to give up playing the game they love enough to become staff members, but I'd wager it isn't very many.
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vex
Clueless newb
Posts: 133
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Post by vex on Jan 15, 2020 15:00:56 GMT -5
Your logic is flawed in its very premise. Do you think that with their max-karma sorcs and psions, gifted with all sorts of high-end equipment they wiz-loaded, bolstered and supported by not only their wizlevel character but also their wizlevel channels and friends are even remotely playing the same game I am? Struggling to survive scrab and tarantula and being pkilled for limited reasons by some bored twink? They literally ARE losing touch with their game because of the cheating way they play it.
It isn't.
Staff deserve to enjoy the game, the same as you or I- not more and not less. It'd be unfair to expect them to give up the game they enjoy, in order to keep it going for the rest of us.
The problem, as I see it, isn't that staff play the game, but that they're given access to full karmas and an array of benefits, as a matter of course. Of course, its going to be exploited and abused. We're human, its in our nature. It's what we do. We exploit and abuse things. We can't help, but be what we are. You're no better, and neither am I. I'm rather certain than half the people spouting off in righteous anger, would be just as corrupt and abusive, if given the opportunity, because we really can't help ourselves. The road to hell, and all of that.
What I'm suggesting is that, stripped of these benefits, and afforded the same rules of engagement that you and I have, having staff engaged with the game at a player level, is a good thing.
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Post by shakes on Jan 15, 2020 15:01:09 GMT -5
In order for staff to not play the game, staff would need to come from somewhere else. It's like saying, "Hey you like cookies so much, want to learn to make them? Oh by the way.... you can never eat cookies again!" Because the staff recruitment pool is the player base, staff would need to come from some outside source. It's possible there are players willing to give up playing the game they love enough to become staff members, but I'd wager it isn't very many. There are THOUSANDS of muds out there that recruit staff from their existing playerbase, and tell them, as a requirement they won't be allowed to play a mortal any longer unless they are on a hiatus. As staff, you're not giving up playing the game. Building zones, running quests, storytelling ... you're STILL playing the game. I don't get these arguments. Very few other muds allow this. It's like some of you have only ever played Arm and think this is normal. It's NOT. |
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Jan 15, 2020 15:02:58 GMT -5
In order for staff to not play the game, staff would need to come from somewhere else. It's like saying, "Hey you like cookies so much, want to learn to make them? Oh by the way.... you can never eat cookies again!" Because the staff recruitment pool is the player base, staff would need to come from some outside source. It's possible there are players willing to give up playing the game they love enough to become staff members, but I'd wager it isn't very many. Just assumptions. You have no way of knowing what people would give up playing in order to be on staff. It's staff culture to do it so it's been allowed over the years. How many active staff (out of the 13 or whatever it is) would store their avatars if they were forced to pick between that PC and remaining on staff? Anyone who would choose the PC over being on staff is more than welcome to continue playing the game and be removed from staff. It's pretty simple actually. |
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ShaLeah
Clueless newb
Sooth Saying & Seeking Clueless Vet
Posts: 65 
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Post by ShaLeah on Jan 15, 2020 15:03:42 GMT -5
Okay so ShaLeah if you are out there in the ether. Are you part of the problem? Does it take two to tango? Have you ever been uncharitable or abrasive in your interactions with staff? Have you perhaps broken or bent a rule at some time? Have you made a mistake? For what it's worth I have done... 1 - Walking from Nak to the Arabeti camp on my way to Luirs within 1 hr of creating an elf because I wanted to play in the post but wanted a southie accent to start. (spam walked like I pre-entered all the commands) 2 - I have spam crafted to run to the merchants after reboot for $$$ money. 3 - I have apartment murdered, shut the door bebe the knife will take you away. 4 - I have gotten crotchey with the staff either because I was in a mood or inferred tone into their written response. 5 - I've discussed IC things OOCly! 6 - I've coordinated playtimes OOCly! But not for murder. 7 - I don't think I've twinked but I'm sure by the staff standard I have twinked which is hunting regularly and without needing skins or bone or meat just for ze fighting. Huh? I haven't read all this - Gimme a bit. |
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Jan 15, 2020 15:04:34 GMT -5
In order for staff to not play the game, staff would need to come from somewhere else. It's like saying, "Hey you like cookies so much, want to learn to make them? Oh by the way.... you can never eat cookies again!" Because the staff recruitment pool is the player base, staff would need to come from some outside source. It's possible there are players willing to give up playing the game they love enough to become staff members, but I'd wager it isn't very many. There are THOUSANDS of muds out there that recruit staff from their existing playerbase, and tell them, as a requirement they won't be allowed to play a mortal any longer unless they are on a hiatus. As staff, you're not giving up playing the game. Building zones, running quests, storytelling ... you're STILL playing the game. I don't get these arguments. Very few other muds allow this. It's like some of you have only ever played Arm and think this is normal. It's NOT. Woah watch out with this logic Shakes. We can't let people know there are OTHER games that do things differently? Harming the integrity and spirit of the game? Double standards? Conflicts of interest? All a-okay so long as they are able to enjoy the same game we do. Right? |
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Jan 15, 2020 15:04:38 GMT -5
or just do the halfway thing i posted end of last page
if u want to keep the system that nergal says is making so many staff necessary then it is better than not letting them play at all
if u want to dismantle the system thru staff attrition ull still get less staff due to no apps from the ones wanting to play in bad faith
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Post by shakes on Jan 15, 2020 15:08:01 GMT -5
I applied for staff once. I was perfectly willing to give up playing a PC. They didn't bring that up because I never even got an interview, but my assumption when I applied was that I would never play a PC again unless I stored my imm.
If you told me that some major character in the game was a staff character, and I looked and thought, "They aren't pk heavy, they rope in a lot of other characters into some big complex plots, and they're good for the game" then I'd write it off and think, "They're not really a PC, they're an NPC the staff is using for storytelling."
But so far the stories I've heard about known staff avatars have been about them loading special gear, altering their stats, running around pkilling people for fun, etc.
If it happened a few times and someone on staff put a stop to it, I'd say it's an aberration not policy. But look ... now we're hearing from ex-staff that it IS policy. It's allowed. Anything is allowed for staff.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Jan 15, 2020 15:16:17 GMT -5
I applied for staff once. I was perfectly willing to give up playing a PC. They didn't bring that up because I never even got an interview, but my assumption when I applied was that I would never play a PC again unless I stored my imm. If you told me that some major character in the game was a staff character, and I looked and thought, "They aren't pk heavy, they rope in a lot of other characters into some big complex plots, and they're good for the game" then I'd write it off and think, "They're not really a PC, they're an NPC the staff is using for storytelling." But so far the stories I've heard about known staff avatars have been about them loading special gear, altering their stats, running around pkilling people for fun, etc. If it happened a few times and someone on staff put a stop to it, I'd say it's an aberration not policy. But look ... now we're hearing from ex-staff that it IS policy. It's allowed. Anything is allowed for staff. I've been playing this game for a long time and I have no idea how they recruit for staff. My gut feeling is this: No one gets on staff by applying for it in a proactive manner. You're invited to be on staff 90% of the time. Whether that's because they liked your RP or interactions (Adhira with Boog here) or they know you IRL or met you at an APM and hit it off. Whatever. There's any number of reasons but it is definitely looked at as some sort of exclusive club. In reality it's not, in fact I feel bad for a lot of the current staff at Arm. It's a thankless job, rarely worth it over time. I got my taste when I worked on Darksun. Trying to manage people volunteering their time for an outdated game genre was way above my paygrade at the time. |
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