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Post by lechuck on Feb 19, 2019 9:16:28 GMT -5
Well, animating NPCs and creating plotlines are two very different things. I readily believe that they don't write up plotlines for the express purpose of getting a PC killed. They most certainly will animate with that intent, though. Join the Byn or the Garrison and you'll experience this on a weekly basis. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the problem is that aside from rote cameos by clan NPCs or Vennant, animations are nearly always used as a "gotcha" thing. You were doing something a little dodgy or you went somewhere dangerous and someone animates something just to say "we caught you doing this." Meanwhile, I can't count the number of times I've stricken up a conversation with some NPC or something like that and found no response. Never had an aggressive NPC spare my life or an NPC soldier ask for a bribe to let me go, never had my unit stumble upon something cool and helpful. It's always a soldier who beelines to your location and ignores your succesful hide, or twelve gith charging over the dune. It's very predictable: staff sees what you're up to and makes your situation worse than it was without their interference. You had the audacity to backstab some rinth NPC at 7 in the morning when nothing's going on anywhere, suddenly Twitchy comes running and acts like you committed alley treason. But he'll never visit some assassin who's obviously bored to death and offer 20 sid to kill some mugger for him. It's always punitive or dangerous to the player.
This poll isn't formulated so well, though. When you ask players if staff has ever animated something that wasn't negative, everyone's answer will be yes. Nobody experiences exclusively negative animations. The better question would be if one finds animations to be more negative than positive, and I expect a lot of us would say yes to that. Sometimes it isn't objectively negative, like the endless packs of gith that seem to track the Byn's movements with the precision of modern military technology. Many times it is, though, when you did something sliiightly controversial and the otherwise dormant world springs to life and hurls rotten fruit at you. It ends up being a game world that only responds when what you did warrants a negative or perilous response. All stick and no carrot makes players feel like staff is just waiting around for opportunities to punish, which I think is actually the case with some staffers. Not as bad as it once was, but certainly still a staff trend. They probably don't realize how it looks from the mortal perspective.
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Post by jcarter on Feb 19, 2019 9:35:23 GMT -5
From Nergal gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52291.msg981966.html#msg981966 Same thread, from Wystan the storyteller. gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52291.msg982112.html#msg982112 i anticipate someone will put forth the argument that animating a NPC to kill players TECHNICALLY isn't against the 'no starting a plot to harm players' rule because it's TECHNICALLY not a plot. but in that case, wtf is the point of that rule if you can circumvent it by just killing players?
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Post by jcarter on Feb 19, 2019 9:39:37 GMT -5
Well, animating NPCs and creating plotlines are two very different things. I readily believe that they don't write up plotlines for the express purpose of getting a PC killed. They most certainly will animate with that intent, though. then it seems like a pretty pointless rule in the world. cool, you can't make a long drawn out plot that involves PCs which will generate a story that will harm my PC. but you can load up an overpowered mul, use imm powers to find me, then murder me. am i the only one who sees the absurdity of this?
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Post by lyse on Feb 19, 2019 10:11:44 GMT -5
I’ve had some nice atmospheric echoes from staff over the years. I can’t say I’ve truly had one where I’ve been sitting there like “you cheating motherfucker.” Have I been on the receiving end of an unfair death during a HRPT/RPT? Hell yes, but I’ve always gotten over those.The last one I was in was pretty ridiculous, but I really wasn’t upset and I didn’t die, but it was still pretty ridiculous.
What I have noticed over the years is there have been echoes or signs that a group is in a pretty dangerous or tenuous situation and a leader or another player chose to ignore the signs. Which leads to shit hitting the fan and that sometimes leads to some unnecessary deaths and possibly setting back a plotline.
It’s really nice when you and your staffer play off each other. I’ve had that and to me that’s what the game is about. I’ve also wished up and gotten animations and echoes. What sticks out though is the times I haven’t though. There’s been times where I’ve wished up, on the fly and nothing happened. I know it was spur of the moment so it’s possible no one was on. But it happened (or didn’t happen) so frequently that I couldn’t help but think something was up. That’s why I always say it depends on who you’re playing with and who’s your staffer.
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Feb 19, 2019 10:43:26 GMT -5
My last serious Armageddon character Elrum 'banished' Irofel had more animations than my others. I was probably near 20+. The fact 'banished' is his middle name might clue you into the longterm trend of those animations. I think staff animations are like smoking. Everyone knows it's bad for you, but it can be enjoyable, and sometimes you really really want one. The high is good, but hard to keep longterm. Also like smoking it is a foregone conclusion that no one talks about that staff animations are linked to staff abuses. In that inarticulate, shrug/meh/gut feeling. Why? Because unethical and questionable staff mean you expect unethical and questionable animations and some claim of bureaucracy behind the scenes preventing that is pretty laughable. Was there some kind of weekly runlog check for animation commands? Did you have to submit TPS reports? Is that system why we have 10+ staff and like no significant amount of game plot over the years?
It's okay though just like Lucky Strikes from Mad Men, this new generation of staff is 'Toasted' and they're okay.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 15:40:07 GMT -5
Nyr's kills often came due to negligence, or mismanagement of NPCs. He's running a scene and it's cool, he's not planning to kill anyone. But he decides to show off how badass Hork is, but forgets to put a sentinel on all other present NPCs. Fails a subdue and ends up with the entire tavern killing off a PC. PC's cronies try to help, but get slaughtered. 2 seconds later, 3 PCs are dead and ... and that's it. Nobody actually ment it to happen, but it did. Granted, the same happened a LOT with sponsored roles, or noobie templars who messed up with crimcode/guard code. Shit happens. It's just with Nyr it happened a lot.
With Nergal. It obviously was never part of a plot. It just tended to be a very heavy handed world reaction. Usually staff try to carry the message across, without permanent harm. But Nergal's animations often involved swarming guards, or uber muls.
Aside that. It is true, there is a rule against killing PCs on purpose and each such instance is discussed on IDB. Things like animating a bahamet and killing someone does 'not' happen. But if you invade a kryl lair and get kryl animated. They might try their best not to kill you QUICK, but they sure are aiming to kill you. You should not expect anything different. You can safely say that if there is a NPC out there who is trying to cause you harm, you've done something to make that happen. And in most instances, they 'will' try to avoid death. Or at least, instant death.
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Feb 19, 2019 15:55:23 GMT -5
PS - Admitting staff accidentally killed people due to incompetence and then didn't provided rezzes even when players put in requests for rezzes because of irregularities is not better than this staffer went out to axe someone. Covering up mistakes and punishing players despite knowing it was unintentional or an error is actually worse.
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Post by lyse on Feb 19, 2019 16:27:34 GMT -5
In all fairness to the topic, the policy doesn’t have much to do with staff doing animations and realistic world responses. For the most part the world responses have been appropriate. When they aren’t, it amounts to a player being an asshole ignoring every possible clue not to be doing something until they’re dead.
Now the Rez policy on the other hand....that’s a different topic.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 17:00:09 GMT -5
PS - Admitting staff accidentally killed people due to incompetence and then didn't provided rezzes even when players put in requests for rezzes because of irregularities is not better than this staffer went out to axe someone. Covering up mistakes and punishing players despite knowing it was unintentional or an error is actually worse. It does happen these days. Not on a regular basis, but it does. Sometimes it happens seconds after the death occured. But I dont really understand its dynamic and guidelines. It definitely has nothing to do with favoritism, since often producers dont even know the players involved. I think a producer being present to witness themselves is the biggest factor. But I dont know how that shit works. Its definitely geared 'against' staff avatars.
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Feb 19, 2019 17:12:00 GMT -5
Inconsistent rez policy has been discussed and lambasted on this forum already. Consistency or bust.
EDIT - Especially because being present doesn't matter on a text-based game where you can see the runlog with timestamps if you want.
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Post by jcarter on Feb 19, 2019 18:44:21 GMT -5
so where was the staff accountability during nergal and nyr's 'happened a lot' PK fuck-ups?
in your previous post you said there was rules against animations killing PCs. but it happened from the sounds of it many times just from nyr and nergal alone.
in the other thread you blamed this terrible awful hostile board of people for poisoning new players, then you hop over in here and drop bombs that nyr and nergal were doing flagrantly disregarding imm rules and jack shit happened to them.
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Post by shakes on Feb 19, 2019 18:47:10 GMT -5
It was staff's own fault the board was poisoning new players. You have good information on the game mechanics, which you banned from the main forum, and it ended up posted here amongst a lot of bitter, ragequitting shit.
Now in this more realistic era, they're letting that information be known in helpfiles, etc. That makes a huge difference and a shift in dynamics.
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Feb 19, 2019 18:59:17 GMT -5
That implies that the reason for ragequitting and bittervet was illegitimate.
Games have a lifespan before the shit builds up. I explained this to a few people but basically...
You can play Armageddon for about a year to a year and a half before the bullshit piles up and the games issues get to you. Shorter if you have direct negative staff interactions.
You can play Haven RPG for about 8 months.
Arx about 1.5 - 2 years.
SOI forever (if you don't mind being alone).
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Post by shakes on Feb 19, 2019 19:02:36 GMT -5
The ragequitting and bittervet is a wide range. Some of it is legitimate, some of it is just butthurt. I'm not going to rehash which points are which. You guys probably know even better than I do since you were around for it at the time.
My point was simply that it exists in the middle of a bunch of stuff I feel like you NEED to know to adequately play the game. Stuff which should have been in the helpfiles from day one. And when the player went looking for it, they were going to be exposed to that ragequitting, bittervet stuff (need a shorter word for this).
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Feb 19, 2019 19:46:06 GMT -5
The negative experience of former players Otherwise known as critical review! But no I get what you're saying. You want to know how to play the game, while looking for it you're getting some 50-100 (or however many people use this thing) review of the game with an unhappy bias.
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