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Post by yourvisiongoesblack on Sept 3, 2018 6:40:09 GMT -5
RE: Events only happening to a certain amount of people. Just because characters aren't right in the middle of a DM-guided plot of sorts doesn't mean a plot doesn't affect them, cause players to make choices, provide a backdrop of events to take into consideration while playing a character, or just give characters playing together to give something to talk and wonder about together. I think that who staff choose to be involved in certain events should, and does, change; the playerbase and staff of Arm are, even if we're talking about a timeline of years here, in a constant state of flux; today's favorite can easily be tomorrow's pariah, or vice versa. I don't blame staff for relying on certain players, maybe ones with a history of character longevity and good decision making, to act as centerpieces of plots. It's only natural that templars, for example, are often certain players in plots, and it seems to me that, to some degree at least, that's the way it should be. If your character isn't involved in a clan in one way or another or operating out of Allanak, you're probably less likely to be affected by something that is a global event, much less be a key player. At any rate, the rolecall promised to potentially "ruin" characters. It's not like it was a role-call for dragonthralls where they start dishing out defiler spells, psionics, a secret base, etc, but, if that were the case, it would be kinda cool, too. Staff was like, hey, do you want to potentially get your shit punched in for a plot? Doesn't really seem like an attempt to shower favorites with perks and badassery like we've seen from these kinds of role calls in the past. and mehtastic - I agree wholeheartedly that it is a person's choice whether they want to read something or not. I wasn't trying to be too judgmental; before the player of j0ram died, he would set an old version of Arm up on a server and let some people run around with staff abilities, like being able to finger pfiles of legendary PCs, read old books in game, look at objects, etc. I was a little more holier-than-thou than I should have been but just find that, the less I know about the game or who is playing who *now,* any shit like that, the better it is. And you're definitely correct that there are those who would actively work against me, and that's fine. I've worked characters into corners before where staff support seemed like the only way to continue, and while it's fun to think about things like starting or building clans, I think the best way to try to play the game is by requiring as little staff support as possible while filling a niche you enjoy. One of the only times I feel like I've been worked against out of spite was when I still had up to mul/Nilazi karma, had never posted here, and was trying to make a clan with a mundane merchant with like 50 days played. I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, even as a high karma player with a long-lived mundane character and other players involved, I already felt like I was being worked against because of stale but still standing beef the Nyrlings, so nothing is really different except my willingness to try to do higher-order stuff within the game. It can be a good game without ever having to coordinate much at all with staff. It's a lot harder to work against a person if they aren't really working toward much of note, heh. |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Sept 3, 2018 6:40:29 GMT -5
Back to the original topic at hand, it has been confirmed that the special rolecall posted on the GDB was in fact a poorly veiled open-call to staff's pets to get involved in something interesting and make world-changing events unfold, while completely neglecting the rest of the player-base that are trying to get involved in these events as well. Already from the sidelines, it has been observed that the frequent 'earthquake' events are the result of staff catering to a |VERY| small group of PCs (literally 2 at current count). One being a D-elf Rukkian/sorcerer doing nonsense in the Pah and one human/breed that is named after a number that is being led around on these bizarre and wondrous quests (still undetermined if the character named after a number is a staff-alt or not). I truly doubt staff are ever going to change the way they run armageddon and they will always pick and choose their 'favorites' over the underdogs, never giving these others a chance to try and make the game any better. They instead prefer to keep running the game into the ground. The current staff in control of this bogus special rolecall are part of the problem - change my mind Crowder style. Also worth mentioning, just because Rath posted it doesn't mean he's in control of it. He's just the face, not the hands. Thanks for getting the thread back on-topic. Can you describe the earthquake events for those who don't play the game? |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Sept 3, 2018 6:50:24 GMT -5
yourvisiongoesblackTo be honest, I'm glad you found a way to enjoy the game. Games *should* be enjoyable. A game can be both enjoyable and rigged against the player, though. See practically any casino game for an example. But in the case of Arm, the dealer picks the winners. Some people are okay with being on the sidelines, and some people want a chance to be in the spotlight. Different players want different things, and all I've ever tried to do was demonstrate that players that want a certain thing are highly likely to never get it.
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Post by lechuck on Sept 3, 2018 8:01:41 GMT -5
I was fine with being on the sidelines with no staff involvement until even that became an ordeal. It got to the point where you couldn't make too many moves or staff would insert themselves in what you were doing, even though it never required anything from them, and then they would invariably ruin your shit because you were starting to become someone. If you want to become someone and are not in a sponsored role, you better have nursed a long-time friendship with some imm since their mortal days.
It even got to the point where staff wouldn't do anything about blatant griefing when it affects people they don't care about. How many PCs were slaughtered by throwaway dwarf warriors on multiplayer accounts a while back? I know of three or four and I don't even stay in touch with very many players anymore, so I'm sure the number is higher. Yet somehow it was impossible for staff to combat this systematic griefing because the list of things that warrant resurrection (probably written in '98 or something) don't happen to include "retards making alt accounts to roll throwaway max-strength dwarf warriors and PK random people for no reason."
Rest assured, staff does not give a flying fuck about you if you're not already their friend. When they send out a call for plot applications, you can be fairly certain that it's their way of getting to run a plot for their faves without being called out for doing just that. It's nothing but self-preservation and bullshitting. "Oh, we invited everyone to apply, these two dudes are just the ones we happened to select. You totally had a chance. We care about everyone, don't you worry. Try again next time!"
When was the last HRPT that actually affected and included the playerbase as a whole? 2013 or something? Don't expect to see those anymore, because they make staff put in work for people who aren't their buddies. Nowadays, they run invite-only plots and you can bet your ass they've already decided who to invite when they come up with the idea.
When you think about it, isn't it a disgusting notion for the game's staff to come up with a plot for which they handpick participants? How is that not in total defiance of the RPI concept? In a critically plot-starved game, at that? That's the kind of thing you might do in a game that has a wealth of things going on for everyone, and even then it should be controversial. Armageddon is now a game where you have to apply for the rare and exclusive privilege of being involved in something. That's frankly disgraceful.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 13:14:06 GMT -5
You can combat it simply by not picking characters to spoon-feed information via NPCs. Leave the clues in the world and let players find them (or not) at their own rate. I'm not saying that this is necessarily what happened in this case (though it does appear to be the case), but that's been the most common way of advancing plots in Arm. You can combat by: only releasing information in newbie character events, or only releasing info to karma 0 characters, or only releasing info in clan rpts The first two would result in plots trickling up, and senior pcs maintaining informant networks The third would lend some value to a 1782nd sparring session or escort ride or group crafting session or spice party. A very good way is to have each storyteller maintain one or two color npcs in the world. Amos the streetsweep doesnt need to be relevant all the time, but sometimes in the middle of the night he sees things. Lots of these options keep the play in the game away from the glass ceiling. |
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Post by shakes on Sept 3, 2018 13:51:27 GMT -5
If you were walking through the volcano area hunting for your 130th turaal to twink up on and suddenly you started sprouting antlers, growing fur, and lost the ability to speak or wield weapons you'd be pissed and be bombarding the board with how sucky it is that staff singled you out to become a carru.
But they put out a rolecall that implies you might become a carru, and they're accused of favoritism?
I feel like what they did is the only way to handle potentially character-ending developments like that, arbitrarily handed down from staff.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Sept 3, 2018 14:03:58 GMT -5
If you were walking through the volcano area hunting for your 130th turaal to twink up on and suddenly you started sprouting antlers, growing fur, and lost the ability to speak or wield weapons you'd be pissed and be bombarding the board with how sucky it is that staff singled you out to become a carru. You'd also be highly desirable for mudsex. Except that's not what's happening. Staff play favorites in a number of ways, but not by screwing players over. When they democratize the screwing-over of other players under the guise of plot involvement, when in reality only a handful of players are actually involved in the plot, one must wonder about the direction the game is taking. If the role call was meant to give a number of different characters some sort of supernatural effect, we have to ask why the staff were so adamantly against running supernatural events in the past except in extremely rare circumstances only to make it commonplace now. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 14:15:03 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I like a simple rule suggestion.
Only run npcs, animations and plots for karma 0 characters with no skill boosts. The player can have more karma available, but make a choice between being a powerful snowflake and a special snowflake.
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Post by jcarter on Sept 3, 2018 15:19:33 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I like a simple rule suggestion. Only run npcs, animations and plots for karma 0 characters with no skill boosts. The player can have more karma available, but make a choice between being a powerful snowflake and a special snowflake. i think this is getting a touch dramatic and agree with shakesand frankly, you can add all the rules you want but it's not going to change bad staff into good ones. it might slightly impede them, but the fight here is not having bad staff in the first place. |
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Post by Amos's Boots on Sept 3, 2018 15:24:52 GMT -5
mehtastic all of it seems to be pretty basic shit. Storms and tumor-rats being spawned in response to the earthquakes. echoes of shit falling and the ground quaking either subtly or immensely. They could be doing a LOT more with it, but they just aren't. I wanna see Tek's tower fall over or something.
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Post by shakes on Sept 3, 2018 15:30:58 GMT -5
mehtastic all of it seems to be pretty basic shit. Storms and tumor-rats being spawned in response to the earthquakes. echoes of shit falling and the ground quaking either subtly or immensely. They could be doing a LOT more with it, but they just aren't. I wanna see Tek's tower fall over or something. It may be coming. I wouldn't confuse a slow buildup with laziness. I'm playing golf on this one ... I won't judge them per hole, let's just see the scorecard at the end. |
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ibusoe
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Post by ibusoe on Sept 3, 2018 17:41:11 GMT -5
My hope is that they don't pull any punches and allow this to be something that permanently affects the game in real and tangible ways - in a way different from Nyr's ZOMG LETZ DROP VOLCANO ON TAN MUARK CUZ GYPSIES LAWL i laughed hard when that plot leaked here and it was so railroaded that they didnt change a single ridiculous detail when it went down Yeah, this was one of the more dramatic operational security failures I've gotten to witness in my tenure. To see exactly how much of the game plot is completely scripted was a relief, as it was decisively proven that there is no way a staff non-pet could reasonably affect the game. I was never doing anything precisely wrong, the real problem was expecting staff to want to change game results in response to player requests. It was excellent theater. Just can't say enough about how fun that was. Almost brought closure to me regarding pretty much everything Armageddon. Can't manage to thank the leaker enough. |
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Post by sirra on Sept 3, 2018 18:59:56 GMT -5
Staff could create far more Plot RP for more people, by loading a gith to take the occasional pot shot at a Byn patrol, or a raider delf that tries to steal their supplies...something that would take only a few minutes of animating, then they can by all of the elaborate, secret conspiracy stuff with blue and red robes, that only the nobles and templar PCs ever encounter. In all my years of Arm, I went on about a ~150 patrols, with like 10-20% of the currently active players in my party, and encountered maybe 2-3 meaningful animations. And those all happened before 2008.
If there's ~37 people online, and ~7-8 of them are on the Silt Sea or in Gith country, you might as well screw with them a bit. But this was rarely (never) the case.
It's also in my experience, that RP tends to trickle UP, rather than down.
If you want to create a lot more action for people, you start with stuff that happens to the underlings, because anything they get into, is inevitably transmitted to their superiors, who then react to it, and decide what to do about it.
You're missing out on a lot of RP by starting with some NPC plot dump to a token PC leader, who then has to somehow explain it to the PCs underneath him, and inevitably wait for some event 2-3 weeks from then to get any kind of resolution.
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ibusoe
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Post by ibusoe on Sept 3, 2018 19:31:02 GMT -5
Then again, it's a slippery slope. When players are given a coded base where they don't have to interact or don't have much of a chance to interact with characters in population centers, it tends to turn into a Bad Thing, and part of the reason iso-clans as a whole have been eliminated: Blackwing, halflings, the Black Moon Raiders, the Conclave, desert elf tribes, the Tan Muark, mantis. I'm unconvinced. I feel like when people drift away from population centers, it's because they want a break from Allanak. Their alternative is not to play. Allanak isn't exactly teeming with players following the results of this misguided policy. I think that if you're a drop-out type, being herded into anything tends to be especially jarring. Back when I played a couple of years ago, you could tell who the staff alts and staff pets were by looking at who was having the most success building their own merchant house or raider group, or building up a solo raider PC. It didn't hurt that I had a staff friend who was willing to tell me who plays whom, and how certain staff would see who is online and where they were before logging into their mortal PC to raid them. Something that is explicitly against staff's rules. I can't imagine that behavior has changed much now that the Producers are even more detached from the social and roleplaying aspects of the game and focused more singularly on code. Yeah, I remember attempting to circumvent this by flat out hiring the sponsored clans to do work for me. I remember one especially disappointing interaction with a Senior Salarr Merchant, who broke down OOC and basically told me that no, he couldn't help me dig a little cave for myself out in the woods, because he didn't have the pull to make something like that happen. Senior Salarr couldn't build a cave. The problem I have with sockpuppeting is that some of them are nasty, bitter, and snarky on the forum with their sockpuppets, and you don't know who they are. So there's a tendency to respond in kind. And then that leads to staff retaliation you didn't expect, or at least it can lead to the suspicion of it. Yes, this should be an obvious conflict of interest. I cannot believe that adults are not ashamed to behave like this. I was fine with being on the sidelines with no staff involvement until even that became an ordeal. It got to the point where you couldn't make too many moves or staff would insert themselves in what you were doing, even though it never required anything from them, and then they would invariably ruin your shit because you were starting to become someone. If you want to become someone and are not in a sponsored role, you better have nursed a long-time friendship with some imm since their mortal days. Yeah, it's somewhat tacky that staff want nothing to do with us until we achieve some sort of indie credibility in the game, after which...they suddenly want to be our friend? Or just throw wrenches in the gears. |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Sept 3, 2018 21:13:21 GMT -5
Then again, it's a slippery slope. When players are given a coded base where they don't have to interact or don't have much of a chance to interact with characters in population centers, it tends to turn into a Bad Thing, and part of the reason iso-clans as a whole have been eliminated: Blackwing, halflings, the Black Moon Raiders, the Conclave, desert elf tribes, the Tan Muark, mantis. I'm unconvinced. I feel like when people drift away from population centers, it's because they want a break from Allanak. Their alternative is not to play. Allanak isn't exactly teeming with players following the results of this misguided policy. I think that if you're a drop-out type, being herded into anything tends to be especially jarring. You're both right. yourvisiongoesblack is right about the problem of player dispersal, which only gets worse as the player count decreases. Giving a group of players a special location could also be seen as favoritism, even if the players worked hard to earn it. At the same time, ibusoe is right that there is little else to the game anymore besides Allanak. Consolidation is a double-edged sword. Adding new locations is also a double-edged sword. MUDs struggle with this kind of stuff all of the time. MU*s with a single, central location tend to do extremely well, so I can't blame Armageddon's staff for trying it out. But they failed to account for the fact that Armageddon is a permadeath game where death is a common occurrence, whereas most other MU*s with a single, central location either do not feature permadeath or do not often feature character deaths at all. It's that variable that messes things up. Though, to be fair, not playing Armageddon is perfectly fine. Plenty of players jump back and forth between Armageddon and other games, and they should keep doing that. |
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