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Post by shakes on Aug 30, 2018 17:00:55 GMT -5
Ok, here's a hypothetical.
If I left Armageddon because of staff favoritism, what would convince me that staff favoritism isn't occurring on my NEW mud?
Are there procedures, processes, etc. that would be in place that I should look for?
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Aug 30, 2018 17:34:12 GMT -5
Personally, I look for, or at least eventually come to notice, a few of these things. Some might seem obvious.
1) If the MUD's staff charge money for perks, chances are really good that there's one player that is the game's de facto patron, funding the game and getting a ton of hidden perks for it. Stay well away from those.
2) If the MUD's staff are engaged in bashing other MUDs, or encourage that kind of behavior, or don't bother to stop that behavior, stay away from them.
3) If the MUD lays out a clear set of player and staff policies, and publicly announces bans, chances are really good that the staff are fair to their players. (Hidden punishments sow mistrust, so it follows that if staff and players are on the same page with regards to discipline then everyone's on an even level.)
4) If the MUD staff take themselves out of the middleman position as much as possible for day-to-day tasks, and give players the tools to create things themselves, there is very little the MUD staff can hold over players' heads, and that's a good sign staff are focused on administration and handling edge cases, like world responses to long-term player efforts.
5) If the staff seem to be busy, not just claiming that they are busy but showing something for the time they put in, that is a very good sign. However this is something that takes a while to actually observe.
6) Open-source code bases are a good sign because it means you can delve into the code yourself to see how something works, taking out all of the fake mystery of mechanics in a roleplaying game and leaving you to focus on the mystery surrounding actual roleplay.
7) The most important thing to consider is player control. If you have limited control over your own character, well, someone has the rest of the control you should have, and that someone is likely staff.
Those are just a few things. It's worth noting that the casual and friendly atmosphere on the staff level is swinging more towards MUSHes and MUDs with MUSH elements nowadays, at least in my opinion. Shadows of Isildur seems to be trying to do better lately, but RPIs seem to be on the decline otherwise. The games that frame themselves as large-scale tabletops are best, in my opinion. There's not much more I can say about this topic than I already have, but if people are interested in hearing more about other MUD options I'd be happy to make a separate thread about the different MUDs out there that would be great for Armageddon players to try out.
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Post by shakes on Aug 30, 2018 21:19:06 GMT -5
Some points to consider there, for sure.
I'd say that, particularly in the case of Arm, complete transparency is called for. It is literally the only way to assuage concerns such as those that have been voiced.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Aug 30, 2018 21:40:21 GMT -5
Some points to consider there, for sure. I'd say that, particularly in the case of Arm, complete transparency is called for. It is literally the only way to assuage concerns such as those that have been voiced. I'm not going to say it will never happen; just that I would be very surprised if it did. |
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tedium
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Post by tedium on Aug 31, 2018 0:30:34 GMT -5
Not only is it nothing new, it's the only thing I've stated as my issues with the game. It beggars belief that I get beaten down by a couple of posters on these forums for hating the game when all I've ever tried to do is warn players of staff's bullshit, point out corruption, and attempt to demonstrate how easy supposedly difficult and time-consuming staff tasks are. For some reason, Armageddon in particular has drawn people who take criticism of the game (or its administration) very personally. Even if you want to see the game succeed and are criticizing it so that it will improve, they'll jump down your throat. The one thing I thought was obvious to everyone is that Arm staff give themselves and their friends an advantage. It wasn't exactly like staff kept it a secret, either. Anyone who has played off-Arm for long has probably run into a staffer and/or their friends who needs to gush about all the cool, secret perks they got on Arm.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Aug 31, 2018 6:27:39 GMT -5
It's easily the oldest criticism of the game, and the one staff have been trying to run away from the hardest. To their credit, staff have tried to eliminate such forms of corruption over the years. But over the past few years, the pendulum has been swinging backwards again, with several staff members holding their positions just to give themselves and their friends a leg-up, doing the bare minimum or sucking up to other staff so they don't get fired.
Staff don't care to fix it, because doing so means they will have to get rid of some staff members, ultimately contributing to the increasingly bare selection of staff. It would also mean acknowledging a long-running mistake and contributing to many players' distrust of the administration. Lastly, it would mean apologizing, and staff generally would not get caught dead doing that.
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Post by shakes on Aug 31, 2018 13:05:37 GMT -5
When I was on staff at MUME, we had problems with staff favoritism and occasionally staff cheating. The game is, at its core, a pvp game, which meant there were winners and losers. You had some staff who would sit in college labs next to other players and assist them with information. Items and such were logged so the only thing that could be passed was information outside of the game. This was in the 90's, before really the rise of things like discord and IM. But it didn't have to be just someone on staff to cheat. Someone could sit there and provide intel from the other side just the same as a staff, though not quite as relevant or tactical of info.
When I was on staff at Faerun, there were some problems with staff favoritism, and I'm sure I contributed to that. As a staff DM, some players were just more fun to play with (for me). A group that gets into the spirit of an adventure would get further with me, and generally reap the rewards of said adventure more often, than a group that would drop their virtual pants and engage in hardcore mudsex as soon as they reached the next safe place.
When I ran my own mud (Wolf Days), I barely interface with players at all, which certainly hastened that mud's downfall. I was fascinated by what I could do with code and could care less about what players were doing (or whether they were enjoying my code changes).
So some players are just MORE FUN than others to interact with, and that holds true whether you're on staff or not. However, I feel staff should be focusing their "favoritism" efforts (which in this case means support, building, vnpc animation, etc. and not stat bonuses and free items) on the types of players who have the most reach and impact in the player base, not just who sends them naked pictures on IM or their private buddies who they like to play with in an insular way.
If the guy or girl who has a big track record of making large plots with reach across a great number of other players should get a little extra attention (favoritism) with their plans, I don't think I (or most people) would complain.
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Post by lyse on Aug 31, 2018 14:21:06 GMT -5
I don’t think there’s anyone disputing anyone on staff is going to have a small degree of bias. It’s humans interacting with humans.
There’s also a large number of players that don’t want any interaction with staff what so ever. I personally think it’s that way because of past grievances, but whatever.
The problem is when it’s to a degree where it’s something you can’t ignore.
Here’s a hypothetical, and it’s only a hypothetical. Say you and someone else committed the perfect crime. A couple days later someone’s telling you exactly what you did and how. The only other person that was there is dead. How’d that person know what happened in detail?
That’s the level we’re talking about and beyond.
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Post by sirra on Aug 31, 2018 17:42:38 GMT -5
What sets Armageddon apart from most other MUDs and MUSHes is the sheer level of bureaucracy, mind-numbing lengthiness of specific staff involvement (Nessalin, etc), and 1984-esque doublespeak involved. Also. On most games where this stuff happens, there isn't as strict a division between the IC and OOC spheres. Everyone pretty much knows what's up, and staff doesn't have the ability to spy on you, or make account notes, or do stuff that is generally consequence free.
Armageddon is unique in that it started out immensely popular, and then a kind've infrastructure was built up, between the staff and the players, that allowed staffers maximum flexibility to do whatever they wanted with the minimum possible accountability. The very same people fucking with you were the same ones handling the complaints, and there was no way to separate the two.
In any other game, you would know exactly what each staffer was doing and how active they were. But in Armageddon, there's often no way to know who it is that's fucking with you, or spending all their time fluffing up one group of players.
Additionally, most games don't have a 'karma' system. Which Armageddon has used throughout the years, as a carrot to encourage others to tow the party line. There is a sizable contingent of players on the GDB who seem to honestly believe the best way to get karma, is to grovel to staff non-stop on the forums.
It was hilarious, when they closed Tuluk. The very same players who would normally have gone to the wire defending it from any criticism (as I had voiced about Tuluk in the past on the GDB), had to deal with the sudden vertigo of completely changing their opinions on it in real time.
Another thing that didn't help Armageddon's ethics, was the various 'get togethers', which pretty much just served as a vehicle for staff to get even more incestuous and defensive of each other. I don't want someone as staff, who is so beholden to the game, and so involved in it, that they're meeting people IRL. It just gives them another reason to bend or pervert the rules for a so called 'RL friend'. It's like taking a tabletop game seriously, where the GM has his new girlfriend participating. What's the point?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 20:40:17 GMT -5
I don’t think there’s anyone disputing anyone on staff is going to have a small degree of bias. It’s humans interacting with humans. There’s also a large number of players that don’t want any interaction with staff what so ever. I personally think it’s that way because of past grievances, but whatever. The problem is when it’s to a degree where it’s something you can’t ignore. Here’s a hypothetical, and it’s only a hypothetical. Say you and someone else committed the perfect crime. A couple days later someone’s telling you exactly what you did and how. The only other person that was there is dead. How’d that person know what happened in detail? That’s the level we’re talking about and beyond.
Errrr. Be a little more careful about that part. There 'are' ways to know. I've played a psionicist a few years ago and the level of omniscience I possessed was staggering. In part it was due to sheer luck of me walking in ethereal at exactly the right (wrong?) moments. In part because at some point I've got a pretty good cabal of another psionicist and 2 Nilazies.
I've played elves who were so good at stealth, they would often end up witnessing secret conversations/assassinations inside apartments. And this was before the updated sleight of hand code. Now it's probably even easier.
So dont be too eager to proclaim staff info in situation that you describe.
PS: Having said that. Yes. Absolutely. Staff definitely leak information. Sometimes ruining other people's plots. Players do it all the time. Majority of staff are just players playing a different role.
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Post by lyse on Sept 1, 2018 0:21:40 GMT -5
What sets Armageddon apart from most other MUDs and MUSHes is the sheer level of bureaucracy, mind-numbing lengthiness of specific staff involvement (Nessalin, etc), and 1984-esque doublespeak involved. Also. On most games where this stuff happens, there isn't as strict a division between the IC and OOC spheres. Everyone pretty much knows what's up, and staff doesn't have the ability to spy on you, or make account notes, or do stuff that is generally consequence free. Armageddon is unique in that it started out immensely popular, and then a kind've infrastructure was built up, between the staff and the players, that allowed staffers maximum flexibility to do whatever they wanted with the minimum possible accountability. The very same people fucking with you were the same ones handling the complaints, and there was no way to separate the two.
In any other game, you would know exactly what each staffer was doing and how active they were. But in Armageddon, there's often no way to know who it is that's fucking with you, or spending all their time fluffing up one group of players.
Additionally, most games don't have a 'karma' system. Which Armageddon has used throughout the years, as a carrot to encourage others to tow the party line. There is a sizable contingent of players on the GDB who seem to honestly believe the best way to get karma, is to grovel to staff non-stop on the forums. It was hilarious, when they closed Tuluk. The very same players who would normally have gone to the wire defending it from any criticism (as I had voiced about Tuluk in the past on the GDB), had to deal with the sudden vertigo of completely changing their opinions on it in real time. Another thing that didn't help Armageddon's ethics, was the various 'get togethers', which pretty much just served as a vehicle for staff to get even more incestuous and defensive of each other. I don't want someone as staff, who is so beholden to the game, and so involved in it, that they're meeting people IRL. It just gives them another reason to bend or pervert the rules for a so called 'RL friend'. It's like taking a tabletop game seriously, where the GM has his new girlfriend participating. What's the point? I think that's key right there. It's the convoluted nature of the game itself, that makes that kind of cheating easy to get away with. Don't forget on the GDB you have alt handles within alt handles within alt handles. So what you end up with the new guy that's actually the old guy that's actually.....inception. |
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Post by sirra on Sept 1, 2018 4:46:35 GMT -5
What sets Armageddon apart from most other MUDs and MUSHes is the sheer level of bureaucracy, mind-numbing lengthiness of specific staff involvement (Nessalin, etc), and 1984-esque doublespeak involved. Also. On most games where this stuff happens, there isn't as strict a division between the IC and OOC spheres. Everyone pretty much knows what's up, and staff doesn't have the ability to spy on you, or make account notes, or do stuff that is generally consequence free. Armageddon is unique in that it started out immensely popular, and then a kind've infrastructure was built up, between the staff and the players, that allowed staffers maximum flexibility to do whatever they wanted with the minimum possible accountability. The very same people fucking with you were the same ones handling the complaints, and there was no way to separate the two.
In any other game, you would know exactly what each staffer was doing and how active they were. But in Armageddon, there's often no way to know who it is that's fucking with you, or spending all their time fluffing up one group of players.
Additionally, most games don't have a 'karma' system. Which Armageddon has used throughout the years, as a carrot to encourage others to tow the party line. There is a sizable contingent of players on the GDB who seem to honestly believe the best way to get karma, is to grovel to staff non-stop on the forums. It was hilarious, when they closed Tuluk. The very same players who would normally have gone to the wire defending it from any criticism (as I had voiced about Tuluk in the past on the GDB), had to deal with the sudden vertigo of completely changing their opinions on it in real time. Another thing that didn't help Armageddon's ethics, was the various 'get togethers', which pretty much just served as a vehicle for staff to get even more incestuous and defensive of each other. I don't want someone as staff, who is so beholden to the game, and so involved in it, that they're meeting people IRL. It just gives them another reason to bend or pervert the rules for a so called 'RL friend'. It's like taking a tabletop game seriously, where the GM has his new girlfriend participating. What's the point? I think that's key right there. It's the convoluted nature of the game itself, that makes that kind of cheating easy to get away with. Don't forget on the GDB you have alt handles within alt handles within alt handles. So what you end up with the new guy that's actually the old guy that's actually.....inception. ...that's actually Nergal. |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Sept 1, 2018 12:39:57 GMT -5
Nergal was actually good about not posting as his player handle (Cutthroat) on the GDB during his time on staff. I don't know if anyone does that lately, but I seem to remember Malifaxis, bcw81, and Barzalene moving in to help staff in GDB arguments. (Those are Shalooonsh, Akariel, and Renenutet for those lacking staff friends to provide fresh intel.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 14:27:15 GMT -5
That was actually Nergal's folly, not shaloonsh's, akariels, Renentutet's.
When a staffer posts his opinion, it is read by many as dogma. The official Staff Announcement. So much that often enough many of them have to add an "This is just my opinion, it is not the official staff position."
Often enoough. Staff as players have opinions and they voice them. And very often they get dragged into debates, arguments, periodic insults, and trolling. The usualness of the GDB. People are not afraid, or sycophantic to Malifaxis, and so on.
But when they post as Staff, the messages they post carry a little extra weight. It is a little (or a lot), more official. Even when they dont mean it to be.
Nergal though didnt do that. He posted as Nergal. He posted with full weight of Staffdom. When he went on tantrums, he did it as a Staffer. When he posted in a passive aggressive, or baiting, or any other stupid manner. He did it as a staff member. And often enough when people argued with him. Even if he did not respond in a kneejerk hostile manner to opposition (he did), the people who argued had to overcome this barrier of, "Will my post get me fucked up in game."
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Sept 1, 2018 14:55:11 GMT -5
While true that Nergal happened to screw himself over, that doesn't relate to the act of sockpuppeting at all, which is what the staff I named engaged in to a degree. If you're going to try to justify staff duplicity this is probably not the ideal place to do it.
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