Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 11:17:27 GMT -5
Just to be clear, I'm not defending staff, simply posing an opinion about why they do what they do and a possible solution. Just wish for huge success in Nyr's personal life in that he'll have to retire because he has no time to create a quality Arm experience any more. Perhaps there once was a time quality experinces were created by specific staff members.
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Post by lyse on Sept 25, 2015 12:34:14 GMT -5
It's basically a bit of everything, but especially boring characters (and players). I can't comment on the current crop of sponsored PCs because I don't play, but the way Armageddon has been run in recent years has driven away many of the game's best players. Those are the ones who won't tolerate the kind of bullshit that goes on, and the ones who aren't satisfied with a hopelessly inert game. So, the best leave and the bad players stay, the ones to whom logging in and going through the motions is enough. If you have lots of the latter, there's little pressure on you to manage the game well. It'll sound a little harsh, but most of today's playerbase consists of dull, uncreative people with rock-bottom standards. They're the ones who will argue that there's still things happening in the game and, when asked for examples, say stuff like "my unit went on patrol the other day" or "Kadius is starting an herbalism group." You'll get Guild leaders who think that collecting monthly token protection money from indifferent merchant houses qualifies as an active criminal environment. You have players who think that carbon copy festivals constitute meaningful events. When you can maintain a playerbase that's satisfied with that sort of banal crap, it's just too easy. To every RPer, the first year of discovering RPIs is an exercise in amazed fascination just from having a place where everyone's in character and the rules enforce roleplay. Some players then move beyond that and start wanting things of actual value in the game; they leave Armageddon. Other players never really progress beyond the point of being satisfied with the basic features of the game, and when you've accumulated an entire playerbase worth of those, it's easy to claim that you're running a worthwhile game that your players are satisfied with. The ones who aren't have quit, but anyone can tell that the game has made no progress for years. Looking back at this game's past, the current Armageddon is a pathetic shadow of that. I place the blame entirely on Nyr's generation of staff. I wouldn't exactly blame the players, I feel a lot of the players really have invested so much into the game that, they just can't give it up and think, "Maybe if I try X concept (somehow) it'll get better, or if I stick with this character to X point things will start to happen for me.". It never does and the cycle repeats. It's a weird Stockholm Syndrome type thing that I can't quite put my finger on. The problem always starts when you start to feel you want more out of the game than the money game, the twink game, etc. I was really pulling for them, but...it's just in a really bad cycle. |
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341 
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Post by my2sids on Sept 25, 2015 14:12:44 GMT -5
Man it sure is easy to throw stones. As a player that regularly contributes I'm pretty happy with how much content I've added to the game over the past few years. Whenever I play leaders I am also impressed with the people I play with and their enthusiasm for contributing. Some people have varying amounte of time or energy, though. I don't personally mind doing the leg work for plots and creating cool shit because I know that at certain periods of my play at Arm I've just been along for the ride, role reversed. Espescially when I was a new player.
For all the complaints about staff scaring away new players I think it's ironic there is such an attitude here. It would probably be better to guide the new players in positive ways rather than expecting them to rise to your level of "awesomeness" overnight. I know that I was a shitty uninspiring player for my first 2 years RPing.
If you want a great environment then foster it.
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098 
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Post by punished ppurg on Sept 25, 2015 14:31:53 GMT -5
It's difficult and sometimes impossible to foster anything productive in certain environments, under certain staffers. To do any "good" in the game, you have to get under the staffers that will allow you to do that in the first place.
There are some that will throw a half-baked plot your way, see that they've created no actual way for you to solve or deal with the problem they've constructed, and then that issue will just be aborted and disappear. Then they complain that the playerbase isn't working with what they're giving... I can think of at least two of these in different scenarios I've experienced.
I'm not expecting the new player to fix this issue; they have to learn the setting enough to be comfortable with it to start that, not to mention gaining some competency code-wise. But if they hop into Arm and are exposed to no higher plots or over-arching story, they'll never have the experience needed to break out of that stagnation.
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Post by lyse on Sept 25, 2015 15:02:54 GMT -5
Man it sure is easy to throw stones. As a player that regularly contributes I'm pretty happy with how much content I've added to the game over the past few years. Whenever I play leaders I am also impressed with the people I play with and their enthusiasm for contributing. Some people have varying amounte of time or energy, though. I don't personally mind doing the leg work for plots and creating cool shit because I know that at certain periods of my play at Arm I've just been along for the ride, role reversed. Espescially when I was a new player. For all the complaints about staff scaring away new players I think it's ironic there is such an attitude here. It would probably be better to guide the new players in positive ways rather than expecting them to rise to your level of "awesomeness" overnight. I know that I was a shitty uninspiring player for my first 2 years RPing. If you want a great environment then foster it. Just out of curiosity what do you mean doing leg work and creating cool shit? Do you mean items or something else? By legwork, do you mean setting up a party or some type of event or do you mean some kind of plot that required something from staff, besides a keg of beer? The I make my own fun line is going to need a little more explanation this time. It's a very GDB type response. I'm asking because I think there's always been a discrepancy between what people would consider awesomeness. But that aside other than the super secret that's been turned on its ear here there's always been an under current of staff doesn't do enough....or the minimal. One thing I've noticed is the people that leave or get the most frustrated are the people that want more from staff than "your clan party has been approved" or being allowed to make The super sharp, keen edged longsword of cutting (insert your cool description here). I'm getting the sense that's what you mean. ....and I could see how that would be fun for a certain type of player. Thing is, how could you not see how that wouldn't appeal to some people? Also, wanna know what's really ironic? "If you want a great environment then foster it". That's actually funny, because if anything that should also go for staff. How have they been fostering a great environment? |
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Post by Tektrollnes on Sept 25, 2015 15:15:43 GMT -5
Its just rife with favoritism. They ostrisize the majority of the player base as this board has pointed out by many of us time and time again.
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341
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Post by my2sids on Sept 25, 2015 17:09:10 GMT -5
Man it sure is easy to throw stones. As a player that regularly contributes I'm pretty happy with how much content I've added to the game over the past few years. Whenever I play leaders I am also impressed with the people I play with and their enthusiasm for contributing. Some people have varying amounte of time or energy, though. I don't personally mind doing the leg work for plots and creating cool shit because I know that at certain periods of my play at Arm I've just been along for the ride, role reversed. Espescially when I was a new player. For all the complaints about staff scaring away new players I think it's ironic there is such an attitude here. It would probably be better to guide the new players in positive ways rather than expecting them to rise to your level of "awesomeness" overnight. I know that I was a shitty uninspiring player for my first 2 years RPing. If you want a great environment then foster it. Just out of curiosity what do you mean doing leg work and creating cool shit? Do you mean items or something else? By legwork, do you mean setting up a party or some type of event or do you mean some kind of plot that required something from staff, besides a keg of beer? The I make my own fun line is going to need a little more explanation this time. It's a very GDB type response. I'm asking because I think there's always been a discrepancy between what people would consider awesomeness. But that aside other than the super secret that's been turned on its ear here there's always been an under current of staff doesn't do enough....or the minimal. One thing I've noticed is the people that leave or get the most frustrated are the people that want more from staff than "your clan party has been approved" or being allowed to make The super sharp, keen edged longsword of cutting (insert your cool description here). I'm getting the sense that's what you mean. ....and I could see how that would be fun for a certain type of player. Thing is, how could you not see how that wouldn't appeal to some people? All of the above, yes. I understand the lack of appeal in how static the world can seem because of how restrictive some admins can be. I'm not really contesting that front. I find it annoying when I read toxic posts about how things should be their way or how they would "run things better". A middle of the road approach or reaching across the aisle will probably yield better results. Throwing temper tantrums doesn't really encourage an admin to listen to your side. Regardless of whether or not an admin is being reasonable or is justified -- you completely lose any opportunity to change anything if you act like a jerk. Do you need to suck up? No. You just have to be mature. In b4 2048472 hate posts. About staff edit: You're right. Staff should be professional. |
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tedium
Clueless newb
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Post by tedium on Sept 25, 2015 19:03:24 GMT -5
If you want a great environment then foster it. I find this attitude insulting and more than a little ignorant. It implies that it's the fault of leadership for not kissing enough ass to make things happen. Tuluk for example was shit because staff were preventing major clan leaders from making it great, not because Tuluk's leaders were too apathetic. Unless you're Shaloonsh, who gets free pass on everything from staff, you'll be managed and stonewalled into oblivion. No amount of dedication or faithfulness can deter them, as evidenced by the two examples I used prior. This is exactly the sort of thankless attitude that makes playing a leader in Armageddon awful. You're expected to drive RP, and blamed when you can't, even if all your attempts to do so are foiled by staff who have a 'vision' for the clan that they're unwilling to share. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 20:38:31 GMT -5
Players can only do as much because the game world is limited in a way so that much of the power and ability to do things are controlled by the staff. If staff want a great environment it'd be good if they fostered while avoid sabotaging their own efforts and the efforts of their players.
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Post by lyse on Sept 25, 2015 20:49:25 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity what do you mean doing leg work and creating cool shit? Do you mean items or something else? By legwork, do you mean setting up a party or some type of event or do you mean some kind of plot that required something from staff, besides a keg of beer? The I make my own fun line is going to need a little more explanation this time. It's a very GDB type response. I'm asking because I think there's always been a discrepancy between what people would consider awesomeness. But that aside other than the super secret that's been turned on its ear here there's always been an under current of staff doesn't do enough....or the minimal. One thing I've noticed is the people that leave or get the most frustrated are the people that want more from staff than "your clan party has been approved" or being allowed to make The super sharp, keen edged longsword of cutting (insert your cool description here). I'm getting the sense that's what you mean. ....and I could see how that would be fun for a certain type of player. Thing is, how could you not see how that wouldn't appeal to some people? All of the above, yes. I understand the lack of appeal in how static the world can seem because of how restrictive some admins can be. I'm not really contesting that front. I find it annoying when I read toxic posts about how things should be their way or how they would "run things better". A middle of the road approach or reaching across the aisle will probably yield better results. Throwing temper tantrums doesn't really encourage an admin to listen to your side. Regardless of whether or not an admin is being reasonable or is justified -- you completely lose any opportunity to change anything if you act like a jerk. Do you need to suck up? No. You just have to be mature. In b4 2048472 hate posts. About staff edit: You're right. Staff should be professional. All of the above, yes: I'm sorry. Why do you find it annoying when someone gives their opinion of "how things should be"? People are going to do that, because there actually isn't a hivemind on how awesome Armageddon Mud is, and I don't care who you are it needs improvement. It's almost as if....you have some kind of stake in the matter besides being a player that knows how do get things done and have fun. I don't think you're going to get too many hate posts, honestly. I think this forum has truly had it's moment. So I know, you're all "Ohhh shadowboards.....edgy", but most people have always been able to have a pretty civil discussion. Although your passive aggressive style might annoy some to make them want to troll you, I find your vague style a pretty good predictor how reaching across the aisle would work. Someone would make an assertion. Vague answers or responses from staff would follow. Someone would get pissed off, usually the player who has the issue...nothing is accomplished. You do know this is one of the reasons the shadowboard exists, right? There is no reaching across the aisle. I think being mature is actually responding to someone's ideas and opinions in an adult manner. |
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Sept 26, 2015 0:13:43 GMT -5
If you want a great environment then foster it. What if that's not possible? The last time I played any sort of sponsored role just about every plan or request I had was met with a resounding no. And these were hardly grandiose plans or anything out of the ordinary. I meant it when I asked if the players are boring or the imms are. And I suspect it's the latter based on my experiences (even of that was a while ago now). Most merchants and nobles cannot even handle their respective family trades. They're instead encouraged to be "political"..whatever that means. I actually enjoy playing underlings, but not to powerless leaders. |
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341
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Post by my2sids on Sept 26, 2015 0:19:13 GMT -5
If you want a great environment then foster it. I find this attitude insulting and more than a little ignorant. It implies that it's the fault of leadership for not kissing enough ass to make things happen. Tuluk for example was shit because staff were preventing major clan leaders from making it great, not because Tuluk's leaders were too apathetic. Unless you're Shaloonsh, who gets free pass on everything from staff, you'll be managed and stonewalled into oblivion. No amount of dedication or faithfulness can deter them, as evidenced by the two examples I used prior. This is exactly the sort of thankless attitude that makes playing a leader in Armageddon awful. You're expected to drive RP, and blamed when you can't, even if all your attempts to do so are foiled by staff who have a 'vision' for the clan that they're unwilling to share. I don't really know how to respond to that because I don't think staff should be as restrictive as they are in a lot of cases. edit: You're referring to the Winrothol/Tenneshi conflict. I was never involved in that but from what I hear it was a lot of back/forth that amounted to no concrete resolution. I think a lot happened, but yeah, no reward cake. |
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341
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Post by my2sids on Sept 26, 2015 0:26:09 GMT -5
I should be more clear: I find it to be annoying to have someone who admits they no longer play the game spin their broken record about how such and such is an evil king from 2002, or whenever it is they were wronged.
It's pretty cool to have shared experiences and all of these perspectives laid out like this. I'm just not a fan of others painting a picture from when TLC was on the radio. It's disineguous imo.
To clarify, I'm not claiming you've thrown a temper tantrum. That's in reference to the ol' standard ragequit that pops up now and then.
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341
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Post by my2sids on Sept 26, 2015 0:27:48 GMT -5
If you want a great environment then foster it. What if that's not possible? The last time I played any sort of sponsored role just about every plan or request I had was met with a resounding no. And these were hardly grandiose plans or anything out of the ordinary. I meant it when I asked if the players are boring or the imms are. And I suspect it's the latter based on my experiences (even of that was a while ago now). Most merchants and nobles cannot even handle their respective family trades. They're instead encouraged to be "political"..whatever that means. I actually enjoy playing underlings, but not to powerless leaders. I think it depends on what type of sponsored role/leader you play and who your boss (admin) is. Are you willing to share those details in order to give your post more context? |
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Post by Tektrollnes on Sept 26, 2015 0:48:24 GMT -5
I agree that a middle ground exists, but thats not what is fucking happening.
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