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Post by BitterFlashback on Mar 5, 2017 7:03:43 GMT -5
I was force stored twice, both times I hadn't broken any game rules whatsoever. The first time my clan members wanted to PK me but couldn't because of my offpeak playtimes. Staff never told me the reason, they said 'we can tell you're not enjoying the role', which wasn't true. I would have been cool with this storage if staff told me the reason, but instead I quit the game and only found out the reason much later. I was also a total newb and way too inexperienced for this role, but too stubborn to admit it. Still, I liked the character. The second time I was force stored, I also hadn't broken any rules whatsoever. I was frustrated with being lifesworn to a clan where everyone played other times than I did, and I had no idea what was going on with the clan. I was completely left on my own with my first ever military leadership role and a character who knew nothing about leading people because no one was showing her to do it. (I know how to lead, but felt it wasn't fair for that character to be really good at it unless she had a good example to learn from). I also wasn't allowed to resolve certain issues on my own without the leader PC who never logged in during my times. I was basically force stored because the staffer in charge didn't feel like helping me resolve the situation in a fair, enjoyable (for me) way, and I frankly felt kind of bullied for reasons I won't get into because... that's the stuff that triggered me 3 years ago and I'm hesitant to dip my brain back into it. It felt like the storage was to shut up my frustrated, desperate pleas of 'please help me enjoy this role again, because I love the character'. That character was 100% loyal to her clan and the worst thing she ever did was to let a recruit act up with her because she didn't know how to be a military leader. Judging by the way she was treated by animated NPCs (and I was treated in request responses) you'd think she killed a templar. One time I was threatened with forced storage because of something I didn't do and had no control over. I had been reporting (thing that was happening to me and I had no control over) for some time, but was told to stop seeing things until it escalated so much that a bunch of people complained. I had to appeal to the Producers so the actual ingame logs would get looked at - to prove my innocence. If I hadn't known that appealing to the Producers was even possible, I might have turned into one of those bitter, venomous players who vent against staff. Because I was 100% innocent and the logs, once someone actually looked at them, proved it. I didn't want to bring this up but I felt I had to, to give a voice to everyone who was ever treated unfairly by staff. In my experience, it's not that uncommon. And it makes people quit. fucking hell thats alot of completely avoidable bs If she keeps contradicting Nergal's line of bullshit she's going to wind up posting over here about her ban. |
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Post by sirra on Mar 5, 2017 22:44:40 GMT -5
The second time I was force stored, I also hadn't broken any rules whatsoever. I was frustrated with being lifesworn to a clan where everyone played other times than I did, and I had no idea what was going on with the clan. I was completely left on my own with my first ever military leadership role and a character who knew nothing about leading people because no one was showing her to do it. (I know how to lead, but felt it wasn't fair for that character to be really good at it unless she had a good example to learn from). I also wasn't allowed to resolve certain issues on my own without the leader PC who never logged in during my times. I was basically force stored because the staffer in charge didn't feel like helping me resolve the situation in a fair, enjoyable (for me) way, and I frankly felt kind of bullied for reasons I won't get into because... that's the stuff that triggered me 3 years ago and I'm hesitant to dip my brain back into it. It felt like the storage was to shut up my frustrated, desperate pleas of 'please help me enjoy this role again, because I love the character'.fucking hell thats alot of completely avoidable bs I wonder if she ever realized that that was EXACTLY why she was force stored. There's nothing the average clan staffer hates more, than a character who expects any kind of meaningful attention. There could be eight or nine Kuracis hunting a silt horror, and who had planned and talked about the event for two RL weeks, and repeatedly informed Nergal as to it, and his response to the hunting expedition resulting in FUCK-ALL because no Silt Horror was loaded, after we stood around trying to bait it for several hours, is basically a bemused shrug as to what we expected him to do about it. It took RL months to finally get a single lousy horror loaded for us. Something which might've taken him twenty seconds. Of course we had to act like he cured cancer, to show our proper gratitude. I can only imagine that if one of us expected him to animate an NPC leader to have meaningful one-on-one tutoring sessions with, mentoring and setting an example, he would have died from shock. And yet, you would instantly have his full and undivided attention, 24/7, if you dared to fight a gortok in the dark. |
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Post by jcarter on Mar 9, 2017 8:39:44 GMT -5
documenting this for all eternity. not all posts are in order, nor do they necessarily have anything to do with one another but are still important. gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52291.225.html turns out that people do get moderated even for making posts that don't break the rules: Bahliker: The point is that posters would draw attention to the fact that the character was still alive or had very recently died, whatever the case may be (whether you believe me is irrelevant to me - it's the only reason I'd moderate that thread, so make of my reasoning what you will). Not every moderation is for rule-breaking, though every rule-breaking does get moderated. Not every moderation carries with it a punishment either. Sometimes we do need to suppress discussion of a character that is alive but no one knows is alive. In other words, don't take a post edit personally, and ask questions if it's unclear why a post was edited instead of letting it stew in your head for several months that you were wronged somehow. reiloth gets annoyed with nergal passing the buck onto previous staff and posting backhanded remarks that insinuate players are only mad they're no longer getting special treatment, points this out, and nergal flies into hyperdefensive mode accusing reiloth of trying to insult him...even though there's clearly no insult in the 40 words Reiloth posted. I would believe you if you showed an ounce of humility in admitting the grievances brought up here have legitimacy. Instead, veterans with 8 Karma are privileged brats. Interesting amendment. Would you have amended without being called out on it? or why you're sticking words into my mouth. I already explained I did not include it previously because I felt it would give too much of a hint to other players on who aggrieved people in this thread played. Would you prefer that staff simply gave information on players' private cases openly? I can assure you the discussion would be significantly more messy if we did not have any qualms about that. But we do, so we do withhold information from time to time to keep things civil. I need to support Reiloth here. I'm also a former staffer and though I've personally never had a significant problem with the administration I have witnessed a decline in staff-player relations which, despite the Shadowboard madness, I think is primarily due to staff culture. I don't know exactly what the malignancy is but it's there. It was there when I staffed (and I probably contributed to it). Hell, it was there long before I even started playing, but it's definitely gotten worse in the past few years. Nergal, I think many players and staff have tried to fix the problem and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise. People are speaking up more and more not because they are merely disgruntled or disenchanted - they're actively trying to keep this ship from sinking. The fact is that players can only change so much. There is a big culture problem staff side which really is on you and the other producers, administrators, and storytellers to fix. How many players are going to have to tell you that something is wrong before you stop brushing it off and start listening? Example: I had a PC force stored, though I broke no rules of the game. Staff Hardline: "We don't store PCs unless they break a rule of the game". How does that engender trust with the community? Example: Staff asks for my side of a story. I give my side of the story, taking the time to really go through it. Staff: "We don't believe you. These are flimsy excuses." How do you respond to that? These are gross over simplifications, but I understand 'airing dirty laundry' on the GDB is poor form. Alluding to vague details also comes off as bashing Staff instead of giving honest feedback. However -- Staff Complaints yield zero results, as Staff isn't accountable to the player community (the player community can't force store a Staff member). So with a zero sum game, I feel the only option is to call out Staff on being hypocritical. Another example -- I was banned from the GDB for a week after stating 'maybe we should post our opinions on the shadow board, then'. I've never posted on the Shadow Board, but was banned for alluding to possibly posting on the shadow board. After attempting to post a retort to my ban on an alternate account, both accounts were banned for a month. I was told in my ban message it was 'unwise' to post such hyperbole, especially considering I am an ex-Staff member. There are three veterans that I can count that have left the game in the last couple of months due to their interactions with Staff (among other things, like, life) -- Does Staff have an honest, heartfelt response to this, or are they going to just post GIF memes? I've been pretty sick the past few days, and it's only getting worse, hence the lack of replies to this thread today. Sorry. I'm going to pop on to write a message now though. So what I've noticed the past couple of years, and while studying similar issues, is that in a society which trends toward equal treatment for all, the people who were previously treated better than everyone else begin to feel discriminated against when they are treated equally to the people that were previously treated worse than everyone else. It's no secret that longtime players of Armageddon and players that staff liked were given boons that other players did not get. I'm talking beyond the (ideally) meritocratic scale of the karma system, to outright favoritism on the side. When these players found that the rules are beginning to apply to them in ways they hadn't before, they tended to get annoyed that their special treatment was gone. Although equality is, on its face, a good thing, it's only really good for those who stand to gain from it, and not so much for those who stand to lose (except, perhaps, in their conscience). So one main consequence of the game's administration becoming fairer (and as a side-effect, more bureaucratic) is that people who used to be able to cut the line, so to speak, weren't able to cut the line anymore. People who used to be able to get staff to look away when they broke a rule or when they outright lied about what they did or didn't do, weren't able to do that anymore.
A lot of veterans that leave due to unfair treatment are really leaving due to less favorable treatment - but they're getting the same treatment that newer players get, which is truly fair, though understandably frustrating to a player that once held privilege. And it still takes into account the length of time they put into the game, for example, by having the benefit of the doubt for an 8k player that breaks the rules just once. But when it keeps happening over and over, or when someone in a sponsored or otherwise limited role breaks the rules at all, it becomes a problem that staff needs to address and can't just be swept under the rug like it used to be. I'm slightly sympathetic toward that, but I think it's vastly preferable for the interests of retention to not have a privileged class of players that are judged differently from everyone else when they do something wrong. I am, however, very sympathetic to veterans that just don't "feel it" anymore - who think the game itself is failing or stagnant, rather than the bureaucracy surrounding it. I think players who feel this way should say what they wish staff and other players would do to fix this problem, rather than just state it as fact. This goes beyond rule enforcement and communication with staff, to what's actually happening (or not happening) in game. Hi Nergal, I bolded the relevant bits of your response. A few quick questions: Am I a liar? Am I an 8 Karma Player (And Ex-Staffer) who is a one time liar, or a habitual liar? Is it shocking that someone would be upset when you force stored a PC of theirs when they didn't break any of the rules of the game? When they asked for clarification if a Staff policy had changed? Is it preferential treatment to respond politely (and with detail) to a request for clarification from Staff, to only be called a liar, that these are 'flimsy excuses', and that asking for clarification to a Staff policy is considered 'letting accusations fly'? The confusing thing about your statements here ( beyond a 'truly fair' system, which lets be honest -- The players should be the judge of that, not the Staff) is that you are basically saying 'people who have 8 karma are treated with preference over people without 8 karma'. Isn't that exactly the point of earning karma? You are earning trust with Staff? You are able to play guilds and races that are otherwise unavailable to people who do not have the same level of karma (trust)? I understand that you are looking into revamping the karma system -- but saying that people with 8 Karma are basically 'privileged' and treated 'preferentially' is putting the onus on them, almost shaming them for having 8 karma. It makes them wonder -- Did I earn karma because of my merit, or am I being perceived as some sort of 'Staff Pet'? Your statements here completely refute the veracity of the karma system as a whole. The onus is on you, as Staff, to either trust players or not to trust them, and to accord them the merit of karma earned, or not. I think it's absolutely bogus that you think there are 8 Karma players that are one time liars, habitual liars, and abusers of their positions. It's incredibly crass of you to say this, not only of me, but of other recently departed veterans. The onus is on you to treat everyone fairly, with empathy, and kindness. Given the opportunity to be punitive, you should resort to methods that make the party aware of why a decision was made, and how they can improve in the future, instead of slamming the door in their face and saying "Sorry that didn't work out for you". If my recent treatment is an indication of your new truly fair system -- Good luck holding on to new or veteran players.
By the way -- I have absolutely nothing to hide, and would have no problem with the entire recent request chain being revealed. I think it would be a pretty troubling read for many people. However, out of respect for other players, I wouldn't, and won't, in any respect. I'm not going to pop up on the Shadow Boards suddenly with 'all the info'. Constructive Criticism: -Give players the benefit of the doubt, regardless of their karma. -Don't assume you know their motivations or morals based on run logs. -Focus on player retention instead of pretending it isn't a big deal that you are hemorrhaging good players. Pursue having conversations with players, instead of waiting for them to put in a Staff Complaint. -Focus on the game, not on the request tool. « Last Edit: 8 mins later by Reiloth » |
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 9, 2017 16:29:28 GMT -5
Ok, so I basically stopped paying attention to these greasy neckbeards after getting a super-mul dropped on the heads of our group when "insert unspecified group here" and shortly afterward got banned AGAIN, this time for more flimsy reasoning than the usual. My reason for taking my ball and going home was, either I am a seriously horrible player like they're telling me, or things really HAVE gotten this bad (and possibly both), but either way I decided it was a game I would not win and decided walking away was a better option. Still, I got some morbid curiosity in me and decided to check on the state of things, and if the really GOOD players are experiencing this sort of treatment as well (there's many we may never hear about), then I'm saddened to say that it's gone from bad to worse, and hang on to the faint hope that staff will hear Reiloth and Yam out, instead of being bull-headed about the whole thing, but I'm not holding my breath either.
EDIT: That was wonky wording. Anyway, yeh, that was the cutoff point, even discussing the specifics of it now seems sort of pointless if ex-staffers are noticing it.
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jenki
Clueless newb
Posts: 156 
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Post by jenki on Sept 22, 2017 14:13:33 GMT -5
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Sept 22, 2017 18:37:57 GMT -5
It seems this staffer has begun their journey on the path to the snark-side of the force. I sense anger in this one's reply. Anyone have an opinion? yeah thats just what u get for being a smartass and airing ur impatience in public |
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Post by BitterFlashback on Sept 22, 2017 22:34:44 GMT -5
Sounds like marketer talk in response.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Sept 23, 2017 12:41:08 GMT -5
Snarketer talk...
But yeah, generally, I find staff doesn't "lose" requests in my experience, unlike some games *eyes Sindome* where they might. Even if you have what seems a simple request that's not getting answered, it's usually good to just wait until someone responds, even if it seems like it might be taking a lifetime to get a response. I know it can seem like it takes forever, especially when it's your own request and particularly when it's time sensitive...
That said, it wasn't the best answer to an honest query, but it also wasn't the worst. The problem is it reads like it starts with a base negative assumption as to the motive of the player. Yes, I'm sure there are staffers, as well as players, dealing with the inconvenience of the floods of Noah at the moment. The only way to really know if the response was warranted would be to look at the recent request history of the player in question, and that's simply something few, if any of us, have access to.
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Post by supahotgal on Sept 25, 2017 15:10:05 GMT -5
It seems this staffer has begun their journey on the path to the snark-side of the force. I sense anger in this one's reply. Anyone have an opinion? yeah thats just what u get for being a smartass and airing ur impatience in public This being said, it is true that FamousAmos has, in an in game sense, played some pretty bad emote-less characters. If anyone remembers Fortuna from Tuluk, an incarnate of her (to my knowledge) exists in Allanak, and yes, is controlled by that player to this day (again, to my knowledge). I agree that the newer staff are getting a bit pissed off at the general clique of players as they are, but that's not on the staff themselves, for the most part. Not saying that every staff member is motivated by their hate of cliquey players as they are with power, pure spite, etc., but it's still something to consider. |
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Sept 25, 2017 19:12:21 GMT -5
yeah thats just what u get for being a smartass and airing ur impatience in public This being said, it is true that FamousAmos has, in an in game sense, played some pretty bad emote-less characters. If anyone remembers Fortuna from Tuluk, an incarnate of her (to my knowledge) exists in Allanak, and yes, is controlled by that player to this day (again, to my knowledge). I agree that the newer staff are getting a bit pissed off at the general clique of players as they are, but that's not on the staff themselves, for the most part. Not saying that every staff member is motivated by their hate of cliquey players as they are with power, pure spite, etc., but it's still something to consider. ... I happen to think this is false. I RPed with Fortuna on several occassions (as a captive southerner, this is assuming you're talking about the Templar, it was a nail-biting experience) and didn't find her to be remotely emoteless. I found out who it was years after the fact, and from what they told me they're too busy with other things to play Armageddon at the moment, and they strongly doubt they will be doing so again, so forgive me for stating that I think your sources are incorrect. Also, that request was totally not their style. |
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MartenBroadcloak
Displaced Tuluki
It's not a shit post if you spell check (tm)
Posts: 370
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Post by MartenBroadcloak on Apr 16, 2018 23:33:39 GMT -5
Give a man a keyboard
he will post shit.
Give a man a keyboard and control of a world-simulator
he will make shit.
Give a man a keyboard, control of a world-simulator and fill it with people,
he will build a shit wall to prove his shit is bigger than your shit.
Give a man a keyboard, control of a world-simulator and fill it with people who ask any questions about the shit wall,
he will pour flaming shit off his shit wall to remind them where shit comes from.
or some shit.
literally, every fucking text based game I ever played is run by Kim Jong-il
There's like a sociology grad thesis in here somewhere that I'm too stupid to write.
*drunk rants on random boards in the middle of the night feels so good*
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 18:28:35 GMT -5
Eyeball wrote (5/28/18):
"When was it decided that Armageddon Mud was Killer/Social only? It certainly didn't start out that way."
Mid 2010, plus or minus based on which clan you were playing in.
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,701
Member is Online
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Post by mehtastic on May 29, 2018 18:52:09 GMT -5
Eyeball wrote (5/28/18): "When was it decided that Armageddon Mud was Killer/Social only? It certainly didn't start out that way." Mid 2010, plus or minus based on which clan you were playing in. Hey now! Explorers can explore the same rooms that have been in the game for the past 10 years! And achievers can build their own clan as long as they go through 5,236 steps created by Nyr and never revised since! |
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Post by lechuck on Jun 2, 2018 13:54:21 GMT -5
gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53814.msg1013124.html#msg1013124 Someone suggests opening karma reviews again. The despicable cunt known as Lizzie says "no, I don't want anyone to get karma, because then my karma will feel less special." She's so ignorant about the whole thing that she actually believes everyone starts with 1 karma. And then she shows her sheer twattish stupidity by strawmanning that "I don't want 1-month players to have 2 karma!" She really is the most disgusting, rotten to the core person in the community. Just a legitimately awful and incredibly unintelligent individual. Every sandstorm in Zalanthas originates from her cavernous vagina.
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Post by Amos's Boots on Jun 2, 2018 15:47:57 GMT -5
gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53814.msg1013124.html#msg1013124 Someone suggests opening karma reviews again. The despicable cunt known as Lizzie says "no, I don't want anyone to get karma, because then my karma will feel less special." She's so ignorant about the whole thing that she actually believes everyone starts with 1 karma. And then she shows her sheer twattish stupidity by strawmanning that "I don't want 1-month players to have 2 karma!" She really is the most disgusting, rotten to the core person in the community. Just a legitimately awful and incredibly unintelligent individual. Every sandstorm in Zalanthas originates from her cavernous vagina. It's people like Lizzy that ruin the world and promote the regressive idiological stances that are well known today. |
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