Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Oct 19, 2014 20:10:14 GMT -5
That would be a difficult question to answer. I'm sure staff would argue that a goodly portion of the playerbase was involved in the pre-plot. I can see the argument now...
Tribes that knew prior and made decisions prior to the event about actions to be taken: Al'Seik, Arabeti, and Tan Muark
Clans that knew prior and made decisions prior to the event about actions to be taken: Kurac, Byn, Militia, Templerate, Faithful, Legions, Gemmed, Oash, theoritically all southern houses and Salarr.
The forays into the Silt involved multiple RPTs and I believe the final push for the guitar involved minimum 12 people from various southern clans. (for example)
The Tan Muark asks for aid / relief / sanctuary with the Al'Seik and Arabeti and basically got shot down because when the Al'Seik were destroyed the Tan Muark offered them help if they became farmer slaves and they turned it down. (for other example)
The problem with this argument is that while factually these clans were involved and these people likely participated in some unwitting manner. That isn't really 'fun' because having no larger sense of importance and such a quick conclusion de-values sekrit build up. Sekrit build up is only gratifying during a pro-longed conflict when people ask how did this happen why were we not prepared and they can go back and see the chain of events that they missed and potentially learn something about who to trust and who not too for the current war. Which end in 72 hours with a volcano. Have an NPC fuck up and be overheard, have less cloak and dagger shit for the fucking Allanaki army movement. Like everyone KNEW it was coming in power. Everyone from Muk Utep to the active PC faithful knew. Everyone from Tek to the active blue robes knew. Clan leaders knew. But it all went according to script because changes that were attempted prior to the event were blocked by higher up NPCs.
As I said in the original thread I knew MULTIPLE Clan leads who were pissed off at this plot because they tried to avert or change it and kept getting blocked by higher VNPCs who had one excuse or another about why the information wasn't viable why it didn't matter why it wouldn't happen why they couldn't do anything. So if the objective was to go for realism over experience then ARMs virtual governments are as inept as real life ones. Yeay what fun?
EDIT
It's like having a friend over for the night then a day later the SWAT team busts down your door and seizes a bag of drugs. You were involved in your friends illegal drug activities but you had no idea and you were left deeply confused and unsatisfied with the experience of his visit. Also you were jail raped by him when you confronted him in jail about it because the police didn't believe you were innocent... ARM HRPT!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2014 20:29:14 GMT -5
all it shows is that 10% or less of the pbase is all that is needed to make an enjoyable plot between pcs and that the # of pcs involved is no indicator of how successful or enjoyable a plot is but it can show that ppl that are uninvolved in some of these plots can falsely conclude the game is stagnant or that other ppl are obligated to include them when theyre not No, it shows that the imms running plots would rather engage a small few than the whole playerbase. Its lazy, elitist, and serves no purpose in retaining more players. |
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Oct 19, 2014 20:41:49 GMT -5
it dooesnt show any of that as can be seen by the last few hrpts (which are the main ways the staff use to involve most of the pbase if they can). the rest of it doesnt put u in a position to gripe since rpts and others arent even designed for pbase-wide involvement, if shit happens great but thats just the result. if their stated goal of player retention is any indication then its pretty clear ur conclusion about what its not doing to keep players isnt shown in their decisions
also u shouldve skipped the checkers analogy (two ppl playing checkers is not rping) [EDIT:good boy that was a smart edit on ur part] because rp isnt established by the amt of ppl involved, but rather by what those ppl are doing within the setting
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Post by hyperion on Oct 20, 2014 8:26:04 GMT -5
So, the majority of events that constitute change are mandates from above and do not involve the player base. Those few that do, as reported here, do not account for the 10% cut of player's action, as all of them tried to change the outcome that was not set to the predetermined end so they were flatly denied, despite realism.
So - Player's don't get to make changes. The few times they are included, they just have rink side seats, but no power to influence. Doing something outside this span is simply building sand castles in the tide.
So hard to see why Arm simply isn't living up to its stated mission. And this is the core complaint of nearly everyone who has posted here.
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Post by jcarter on Oct 20, 2014 10:06:05 GMT -5
i'd argue that there's a lot of better ways to engage the pbase than running a long-term RPT using a small number of special app PCs on a furtive mission which doesn't involve others beyond their circle but honestly something is better than nothing. I think better ways to run it would be having one or two special app PCs being involved in recruiting in game PCs, who either have the option of ratting them out and creating a plot for others to capture the spy or getting in on the action.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Oct 20, 2014 10:11:53 GMT -5
I think better ways to run it would be having one or two special app PCs being involved in recruiting in game PCs, who either have the option of ratting them out and creating a plot for others to capture the spy or getting in on the action. w/o trying to derail this thread further that is one very cool approach that blends staff support w/player initiated and managed actions, great angle |
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delerak
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"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
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Post by delerak on Oct 20, 2014 15:44:47 GMT -5
Just a few things Arm could do but doesn't:
-Ruins: Have random ruins strewn about the world. Sands can cover a lot so building new stuff like this is logical.
-Steinal?
-Artifacts, mysterious objects/items that have magical properties. As much as they tout low fantasy there is/was/still is a ton of magick in the game and why is it that you don't just run a plot like a golem is discovered deep in the obsidian mines of allank. Maybe it only activates at night and kills anything in its path. This prompts the black robe templars to investigate and try to control the magical monstrosity.
-There should be more oases around the world where strife is borne from those trying to control such a valuable resource. Unfortunately all water is removed from the world and now only the cities have water.. makes zero fucking sense.
-More tiny villages all over the world. People don't just settle in cities, there should be small settled villages all over the world.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 18:27:09 GMT -5
Just a few things Arm could do but doesn't: -Ruins: Have random ruins strewn about the world. Sands can cover a lot so building new stuff like this is logical. -Steinal? -Artifacts, mysterious objects/items that have magical properties. As much as they tout low fantasy there is/was/still is a ton of magick in the game and why is it that you don't just run a plot like a golem is discovered deep in the obsidian mines of allank. Maybe it only activates at night and kills anything in its path. This prompts the black robe templars to investigate and try to control the magical monstrosity. -There should be more oases around the world where strife is borne from those trying to control such a valuable resource. Unfortunately all water is removed from the world and now only the cities have water.. makes zero fucking sense. -More tiny villages all over the world. People don't just settle in cities, there should be small settled villages all over the world. Ruins: There are. Steinal: Sadly, no, but it'd be fun if they could turn the discovery of it into a plotline. Artifacts that have magical properties: There are. Oases: There are several water areas in the game outside cities and outposts. "All water is removed from the world and now only the cities have water" - not even almost kind of true. Even if you don't count the actual oases and water-caves (and there are several) there's also all the outposts and Red Storm all have water. More tiny villages: That might be nice, but that'd be diluting the playerbase more than already is. "People don't just settle in cities" - that is already a true statement. There's the two cities, and Luir's, Red Storm, the Tablelands, Cenyr. Cenyr is the only one of those that doesn't have a spawn room out of the hall of kings. There are also coded farming villages in the south with quit-safe rooms and 2 different outposts in the Tablelands (Blackwing and Mul). |
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delerak
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"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Oct 20, 2014 18:37:48 GMT -5
There are ruins? Really? Where? Considering I've mapped every single area on the game (ever seen my excel map?). So please enlighten us with these mysterious ruins that exist.
Artifacts: Way to be vague again.
Oases: Lol. Several? There should be hundreds.
Villages: No it wouldn't it would be a realistic representation of the virtual world.
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Post by gloryhound on Oct 20, 2014 18:54:27 GMT -5
Ghaati's post, to me, just demonstrates "the GDB Way". Namely, whenever someone wants to see a change, be it in the code base or the world data, the reaction is an immediate search for reasons to do nothing and change nothing.
That's why they'll point at a crappy little platform with one room below as being a sufficient ruin, for example, when someone wants to see full blown areas to explore, with special features, creatures and a chance for discovery. I mean, how cool would it be to stumble into a multi-room, detailed ancient Ruk temple, one that actually has symbols that clever Rukkians could decipher and learn something from? Why is this so impossible in the Arm of today? Why do the people on the GDB resist everything and anything unless it's a staff announcement, in which case they flip out joyously?
Then there's the ultimate trump, when any reason they invent is too half-assed to convince even themselves. "It's too much work for staff".
What can you do when a staff member posts she can't even be interested to make a medic patch for a clan? Why not? Why not?? It's the final big no: "be the change ", except that players can't change a single line of description or byte of code!!! I really wish someone could explain this inertia to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 20:01:19 GMT -5
Spot on. It's such an ingrained trend on the GDB. I don't think there has ever been a suggestion made on there that wasn't argued against by people like spawnloser who just naysay everything in order to feel like they're smarter than others. Also the fact that it really is a search for reasons to disagree, a reactionary contrarianism, not naturally believable opposing opinions that make sense. It's usually obvious that they don't really think the suggestion is problematic, they just want to disagree.
I remember back in the day when I suggested stat prioritization and more balanced stat aggregates and idiots came out of the woodwork to argue that completely randomized stats were better because you don't get to choose your stats in real life. The prioritization part did eventually get implemented, but not until like two years later, and the game's stat system still remains so random and unbalanced that people routinely suicide characters because of stats.
You can often tell exactly how they'll have sat there going "what can I come up with that will make that suggestion sound bad?" Arm's community has fought any and all change so fiercely and for such a long time that while staff hold much of the blame for the game's stagnation, its veteran players have also made it far too easy for staff to get away with doing nothing. They can decline to take all suggestions because they can find enough people who disagree with anything to justify (to themselves, anyway) deciding not to do so on the pretense of it not benefitting the game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 20:54:30 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to make the suggestion sound bad. I was sying some of suggestions were already implemented. Some of the ruins are on the map. Others I spent a lot of time exploring and finding for myself and I'm not about to give that information away. You want it, go play and find it or find someone else willing to do all the work just so they can give it away to people who are too lazy to bother (or who don't even play anymore). I also agreed that discovering Steinal would be a great idea for a plotline. And I agreed that more villages would be great, but that there's the problem with player dilution if you add more than there are now.
Delerak was pretty specific in stating there were no sources of water except in the cities. I posted that he's wrong about that. There are several other sources of water in outposts, villages, and natural sources of water. It's a fact. Delerak doesn't like being corrected, so he changed his statement. Now, instead of being dissatisfied that there aren't more sources of water other than just the cities he's griping that there aren't hundreds. If I could prove there's hundreds he'd complain that there aren't thousands. This from someone who doesn't even play anymore.
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delerak
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"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
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Post by delerak on Oct 20, 2014 22:31:09 GMT -5
Re-read my post.. I will quote a few parts for you:
I stated there should be more. I know there is a shitty mud oasis in the tablelands, I know there is a shitty grey water oasis in the windy plains, I know where all the water sources are. Why not have a dozen or so oasis just surrounding allanak? Maybe a band of raiders take one over, maybe some mantis even bed down at another one. You're so brain washed by Arm that you aren't thinking outside your silly square box that Arm has so neatly packaged for you.
This is obviously SARCASM. I know not ALL water is removed from the game. But of the good oasis that are left, they are garbage, and there is no point in them even being there. Name me one source of water that is within 40 rooms of Allanak outside besides the secret cave water source. Again makes no fucking sense. Oases should be more realistically represented, it's not like you're going to make the game any easier, hell you'd just cause more conflict because people would flock to those areas for free water and get insta-gibbed by NPC raiders or even PCs that know to check their for fresh meat.
I love being corrected, it means I learn something, but I wasn't wrong on this front. It makes no sense that clans get a magical barrel of endless water and that 'Nak and Tuluk and Red Storm and all these other places have endless supplies of water, obviously there is water in the world, not including oases in a desert world is just dumb, another thing they got wrong when they ripped Darksun.
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Oct 20, 2014 22:43:18 GMT -5
Every Rukkian, Scavenger subguild, and Ranger has water whenever and wherever they need it. If I was going to go with a character concept that primarily traveled in the wilds I'd likely go Ranger for all the skills and bonuses and food/water foraging or at least get Scavenger. Also high forage skill means easy sid. Likewise Viv's can create abundant caches of water even easier than foragers can find it.
As noted in other threads 'survival' in ARM is a joke. Anyone with a modicum of experience can completely negate any illusion of food/water shortage because there isn't one. Might as well create easy sources of it as wilderness hotspots for random RP to happen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 23:27:45 GMT -5
Ghaati's post, to me, just demonstrates "the GDB Way". Namely, whenever someone wants to see a change, be it in the code base or the world data, the reaction is an immediate search for reasons to do nothing and change nothing. That's why they'll point at a crappy little platform with one room below as being a sufficient ruin, for example, when someone wants to see full blown areas to explore, with special features, creatures and a chance for discovery. I mean, how cool would it be to stumble into a multi-room, detailed ancient Ruk temple, one that actually has symbols that clever Rukkians could decipher and learn something from? Why is this so impossible in the Arm of today? Why do the people on the GDB resist everything and anything unless it's a staff announcement, in which case they flip out joyously? Then there's the ultimate trump, when any reason they invent is too half-assed to convince even themselves. "It's too much work for staff". What can you do when a staff member posts she can't even be interested to make a medic patch for a clan? Why not? Why not?? It's the final big no: "be the change ", except that players can't change a single line of description or byte of code!!! I really wish someone could explain this inertia to me. I will tell you now, and succinctly, here, why 'be the change' doesn't work. That wasn't the quote, the quote reflects what these boards are doing, actually: The closest verifiable remark we have from Gandhi is this: “ If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. ... We need not wait to see what others do.” Here, Gandhi is telling us that personal and social transformation go hand in hand, but there is no suggestion in his words that personal transformation is enough. In fact, for Gandhi, the struggle to bring about a better world involved not only stringent self-denial and rigorous adherence to the philosophy of nonviolence; it also involved a steady awareness that one person, alone, can’t change anything, an awareness that unjust authority can be overturned only by great numbers of people working together with discipline and persistence.When looking at the actual quote in context, it becomes very easy to see how the insular nay-saying and white-knighting of the GDB has led to the stagnant clime of the game. And perhaps why so many small changes have been implemented since a plurality (or possibly majority) of players have begun to visit or take part in the community here, thus changing themselves, and the approach taken toward the world in question, virtual or no. |
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