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Post by topkekm8s on Jul 7, 2015 16:57:11 GMT -5
i chuckled heartily at the webcomic you shared, please continue to share them in the future and i will be sure to hit the "thumbs up!" button! Ha-ha!
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Jul 8, 2015 1:15:15 GMT -5
it wuz relivent 2 teh topik @ hand.
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bastilleangel
Clueless newb
Wielding the Power of Love and Investigation Since 2013
Posts: 119
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Post by bastilleangel on Jul 16, 2015 12:38:56 GMT -5
This is really a critical point in the "Anatomy of a Failed Producer". I've been involved with Arm (or was) now for a decade-plus. I've recruited dozens of friends and family to play over the years, some of whom still do. I've seen plenty of questionable calls staff-side, been on the bad end of them, and rolled with the punches. I've also staffed on other RP sites, and so have a certain sympathy for the difficulties involved. However, Nyr is perhaps a "perfect storm" of undesirable traits in leadership: 1) He is ubiquitous. He posts constantly. He "responds" (and I use the word loosely) to Player Requests prolifically. One of my family members actually started figuring out his daily routine by when he would get Nyr nasty-grams about specific events after the fact, and started playing in the windows of no-Nyr during the day. Suffice to say, the amount of time the man spends on Arm is frightening. 2) He is completely unable or unwilling to "check his ego". (Thanks to Anaiah, I believe, for that phrase in this thread.) If a staffer were ubiquitous, but solid in other regards, then it's a wonderful trait in a teammate. When paired with someone who can't be wrong, no matter what the evidence is, or admitting to a simple honest mistake, that same trait starts up a vicious synergy. Now you have someone who seems to be everywhere, both IC and OOC, who will never take responsibility for his part in any sort of error or misunderstanding. Seriously, if any of us conducted ourselves that way in the work-place, let alone with significant others or family, I doubt any of those relationships would last (or in the case of family, inevitably grow toxic if there's no chance of separation). and 3) He's terribly clever. In the aforementioned role-playing site (actually the extensive forum for a LARP I founded and ran for three years), I had a player who was legitimately sharp and aggressive. Unfortunately, he believed that meant he was the smartest person in the room, no matter what. I'm afraid Nyr suffers from the same affliction: he seems to honestly and passionately believe he is smarter, better informed, more insightful, wiser, and a better person (more patient, more giving of his time, more magnanimous) then any player he comes into contact with. As one might imagine, that's a serious problem. It's a cognitive distortion so disruptive that it makes negotiation or conflict resolution extremely difficult, if not outright impossible. If my premise is "BastilleAngel knows best" from the outset of an issue, as opposed to "What is the best resolution for this situation for the game?", arriving at results that are beneficial to the Arm community as a whole (which I would argue should always be a Producer's aim) almost can't happen. So, in summation, you have a ubiquitous person, who can't allow himself to be wrong, who assumes he is smarter/better informed than you, in the highest tier of authority for the game. Even Halaster at his worst didn't consistently hit all three of those (I would also note that Sanvean acted as a far more substantial "circuit-breaker" for Halaster's sometimes excesses than Adhira ever has for Nyr). Neither have any of the other problem staff that I'm aware of. Even Niamh could occasionally admit she had overlooked something, and that was at the height of acting as Nyr's personal echo-chamber. * * * There's probably a fourth variable in the equation I'm missing. And you know what? I'm fine with that, because I don't have to be right. Anaiah, out of curiosity, how was Nyr's behavior toward the other staff? Or any other whilom staffers we have here: was his tone more civil? Did he ever concede a point? Even a genius isn't going to get it right 100% of the time, which Nyr is a far cry from. I'm just wondering if he's able to admit at least partial culpability under any circumstances, at any time. I'm tempted to put up a particular exchange I had with him, which went to Big Daddy Morg, then back to Nyr. It "outs" me unmistakably, but seeing as I haven't played in several years, it's probably a moot point. It's the closest I've ever seen to an apology from him, except it didn't come from the man, the myth, the legend. It came via Morgenes, who has never been anything other than respectful and on-point with me. Goddess, I yearn for the days of Sanvean/Halaster/Morg as the active Big Three. As has been noted before, Storyteller Nyr wasn't actually that bad. The Jekyll/Hyde thing happened later, as he rose through the ranks and become more and more insulated from any possible backlash.
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bastilleangel
Clueless newb
Wielding the Power of Love and Investigation Since 2013
Posts: 119
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Post by bastilleangel on Jul 16, 2015 13:03:52 GMT -5
Yep, it was Rissa, his psion, in 2011. I'm still not sure why, but that's the impression I got as a ST, in that once I rotated to staff under him (a few RL weeks later), he more or less started vetoing and trying to stonewall anything I tried to do. So if it wasn't that, he either disliked me from the start, or that's how he often is with ST's who work under him. I know she reacted poorly to it. Which is sad, because they didn't even take any of her stuff. She comes in, he flees out the (uncoded but written into the room desc) window, she starts hearing his thoughts while he's right outside trying to get away. Ah, found this. Another chunk of confirmation. :/
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 13:29:41 GMT -5
He has a gigantic superiority complex. Armageddon is the platform that allows him to act out his disorder, and he has surrounded himself mostly with people who are similar to him or will let him be that way without objection. Sometimes people join staff who don't simply submit, and they're gone within a year. A great many of the players with backbone and principles have similarly been driven away, either leaving the game entirely or becoming detached outcasts like so many here who, even if they still play the game, do it in a kind of non-participatory or even actively contrary way.
The consequence is much the same as in a workplace with an abusive boss: the better personnel will start to seek elsewhere, or won't stay when hired, while those who remain are increasingly either too inexperienced to have better options, or just weak-willed and resigned to their situation. Eventually everyone in the office is one of those. Armageddon has lost nearly all of its best players, all the creative forces and talented writers. Almost all the players who could think for themselves, take initiative, and led the community. What's left, with a few exceptions, is bad players and dullards.
Notice also how departed staff never really stays on as player legends anymore? They used to do that all the time in the past. It seems that when someone has had close contact with Nyr, they usually get the hell away from Armageddon for good. This entire community is the result.
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bastilleangel
Clueless newb
Wielding the Power of Love and Investigation Since 2013
Posts: 119
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Post by bastilleangel on Jul 16, 2015 14:43:01 GMT -5
I think that's a fair characterization, Oldtwink. I don't know about the current state of IC role-play, but some family members still playing do tell me about the climate of the GDB. If anything, it's worse than when I left several years back. Also, your observation about Legend status is on-point. Talk about loosing your natural constituency! That's a class of folks who have been "there and back again". They should be some of the very best resources for continuity, newbie help, and solid role-play.
If Nyr left tomorrow, I'd be playing the day after. It's really that clear-cut for me. I can absorb pretty much any other staff idiosyncrasy or bias. We all have them, and we all will occasionally rub each other the wrong way. But because of the confluence of character traits outlined above, he's really in a class all his own. I'd have to have some of the true vets chime in if there's been someone who fit this bill in the first half of Arm's RL history, but I can tell you, there hasn't been one in the later part. It's appalling.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 15:32:38 GMT -5
There have been some bad people in the past. For instance, Nessalin could be just as unpleasant as Nyr. However, I don't think there have been any others who genuinely seemed to have a full-blown personality disorder that they channeled through their position of authority. Nobody else has gone to these length to enthusiastically bully players, nobody else was so actively hostile. Nyr sits on the forum and just waits for opportunities to treat people like shit because he so clearly enjoys it, and needs it so much that it's usually completely unprovoked and out of proportion to what he's replying to. Hence this thread, and countless other remarkably similar stories about how he has been an enormous cock to people.
He's the most toxic person in the Arm community and he happens to preside over the game, giving him unopposable authority and power over it and everyone in it. This is also why I know nothing will happen until he himself finds some better outlet for his need to treat people like that, and to be honest, what could possibly be better than Armageddon? Even if he does leave, he has carefully surrounded himself with people who are either like him or sufficiently milquetoast to be pushed around and take it, so I don't see anyone who can turn things around. There would need to be some new candidate who's opposite to that, and we all know that such a person would either never get invited to join staff or would be shunted back out once Nyr finds out that they're not gonna be his creature.
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Post by silentlamb on Jul 16, 2015 17:46:18 GMT -5
I've personally brushed against Nyr a few times. I wouldn't say I like him, nor would I say I hate him. I was permabanned for a while, and after sending in a ban request this was the response. I thought the reply was civil, and quite generous given the circumstances. Here's the content of the email;
"I believe that I have now removed your IP ban on the game/GDB. Please let me know if that is not the case and I can help zero in on the specific root cause.
Furthermore, I am granting you a karma point. This is your longevity karma point, but it also is something that serves as a specific reward and encouragement. You did exactly what was requested by staff, and you have improved. This is the kind of thing we hope to see from players."
So yeah not only did I get unbanned but I got a point of karma. Can't complain about that, but based on others experiences with Nyr and staff I'm to say the least wary about them. I generally just keep to myself these days. I haven't even logged into the game in 2 months, it's just lost its charm as far as I'm concerned.
I should probably note that staff wouldn't even acknowledge the reason I did what I did which got me banned, (at least not directly, they didn;t comment on it) and it wasn't till I sent this in that they sent the above;
"Hey staff, it's been six months since we last spoke.
I'd like to apologize for my previous behavior. I understand our interactions have been less than ideal... And in truth looking back over alot of what's been said, I admit I'm at fault, and made a right tit out of myself. I'm sending this in the hope you may be willing to allow me back into the game as a full player without the limits previous placed on myself, (requests etc...). Of course I'll be well behaved in future, and there won't be any repeats of my previously poor attitude with regards to the game and staff. It was never my intention to have things go as far as they did, but that still doesn't excuse my frankly shitty actions. I've matured a lot since we last spoke, and I hope with time we'll be on much better terms and we can look back on this in the future as a lesson learned. If you do lift the restrictions, could you also life the ban on my IPs/ISPs? I can't currently access the GDB/game without a VPN/proxy."
So make of that what you will.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 17:57:27 GMT -5
For every such case, there's three instances of "I'm banning you and your wife's account because we think you're using the shadow board and we're too unpaid and volunteery to do any real fact-checking."
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Post by silentlamb on Jul 16, 2015 18:12:33 GMT -5
For every such case, there's three instances of "I'm banning you and your wife's account because we think you're using the shadow board and we're too unpaid and volunteery to do any real fact-checking." Yeah I was there when that was all dropped. Pretty shitty imo, it's certainly contributed to my lack of enthusiasm towards the game. It's a game plagued with problems. If staff were to come out today, basically stating they wish to wipe the slate clean with all players, and offer a broad apology to those who've distanced themselves from the game, do you think things would improve? I can't see it happening, but it's a nice thought. While I personally don't feel wronged, it's obvious many others do, and I feel it's something staff needs to address which they appear to consistently fail to do.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,515
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Post by Jeshin on Jul 16, 2015 18:29:37 GMT -5
It's a toss up. Is it an apology and no staff position changes? Is there a new mission statement put out? A new guide to staff professionalism? A new stance on hrpts and rpts in general?
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Post by silentlamb on Jul 16, 2015 18:54:46 GMT -5
Well lets say it's all of those things, seeing as how this is all purely hypothetical.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,515
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Post by Jeshin on Jul 16, 2015 19:00:23 GMT -5
Okay then yeah, arm might get 50 more players. If they did all that. I'll say this short because cellphone
More players would return if change happened than people who would leave. Would any player quit if a staffer got fired? What about a return to old ways of handling plots? Think anyone will leave if there was a public apology?
There is overwhelming upside to such actions.
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Post by sirra on Jul 16, 2015 19:23:14 GMT -5
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 21:06:29 GMT -5
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." Also - better the devil you know, than the devil you don't. -A whole bunch of people
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