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Post by lyse on Mar 6, 2014 15:08:25 GMT -5
lyse - I think one popular school of thought amongst some Armageddon players, and members of this board predominantly, is that we like conflict. We're not necessarily saying that Allanak and Tuluk have to be at war, we're saying that we want them to be. Although, in a lot of ways, I think war makes more sense than the alternative (peace). Sure, peace is good for trade, but traders don't rule Zalanthas - Sorcerer Kings do. And Sorcerer Kings don't particularly care what is good for their people. (Well, maybe Utep does, but he's a fal.) Perhaps "at war" isn't the proper term, since, yeah, we can't have player-base cleansing battles every other month and still make the game fun and playable. The proper term is probably "open hostility." This makes sense in both the far-back history of Zalanthas, as well as the scope of recent events. Since the MUD began North and South have been at it, and the only reason this changed was because they decided to team up against whatever apocalyptic boogey-man the imms were planning to introduce in the '06 Reborn phase. That phase is gone, time to get back to the run of things. And sure, open hostility isn't fool proof. If I wanted to wander into the opposing city state, you bet your sweet ass I could. I could ride into Allanak, sell all the empty wooden chests and crates my star-inked hands could carry, hitch up my mount, and ride back out. Hell, odds are I could do this at peak and no one would ever noticed. But go sit in the Gaj once at any time remotely resembling peak hours. You probably won't get killed, but you'll see rinthis, gemmers, and commoners all ban together with the unifying opinion that your the most objectionable character in the room. Odds are you might even get questioned by a Templar. You might not like this, but some of us do. It is "gritty" and "harsh." (Not referring to the slogan on Arm.org) And yes, the battles of this "war" are definitely just Immortal light shows. Not at all player controlled. However, without trying to spoil to much, this conflict does and has created other RP plotlines. There have been pro-city groups sprouting up in the midst of this. The North is now without a mercenary company - someone could sure as HELL try and fix that. I've seen plotlines going for southern persons and/or resource raiders. (Not sure if any are currently active.) There are plenty of niches that can be filled in this conflict BY PLAYERS. I personally believe that peace will just funnel more players into GMHs, which does not a player-run game world make. As @jenki noted, the war has, in a counter-intuitive way, made the world seam larger. My character can no longer ride straight up to the gates of the other city one day, buy an item for less than I'd have to pay in the other city, and then ride right back the next. The opposing region is now this foreign and dangerous place, not to be triffled with idly. And this is what I have a problem with. Arguably the best material in the game for making weapons and it's not needed. It's bullshit. In Darksun Urik was the city-state with the obsidian mines and it was a huge deal. Everybody wanted to get their hands on the obsidian weapons made in Urrik because they were the sharpest deadliest of any weapon anywhere. Unfortunately I don't think the code even takes into consideration the fact that obsidian is that sharp and useful. Agreed. Obsidian is naturally jagged, and naturally sharp. It's glass, only MUCH harder. If edged obsidian weapons had a bonus to damage and/or armor piercing it would not only be realistic, it would give Allanak a real resource to benefit from. Because, honestly, if you wanted to try and stab my chitin armor with a bone-tipped spear, I could probably just stand there and let you. I honestly don't think it would go through. It wouldn't balance the cities out completely, but it would be a step in the right direction. Also, I like the idea of burning the grey forest - at least the outer edges. Drive the harvestable wood back, closer to the kryl hives. And let the combined ash from that fire and the volcano kill much of the southern and western scrub plains. *rolls up a krathi ... * Love how I was misquoted as saying I want a peaceful Zalanthas. Love how I was misinterpreted as being anti-conflict. My eyes glazed over a few times too. Without spoiling too much (lol), what's this war over? Since we all love conflict, why don't we feel it? Again, if I wanted to wander into Allanak, I can. If I wander into the Gaj with my Northie accent, I'm stupid. Help me as an average, once in a while player, make sense of this war. Besides, "We love conflict, not sure about you." Sell me on this particular Allanak v Tuluk war. Thanks.
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Post by tektolnes on Mar 6, 2014 18:38:12 GMT -5
Love how I was misquoted as saying I want a peaceful Zalanthas. Love how I was misinterpreted as being anti-conflict. My eyes glazed over a few times too. I still say they should end the"war" plot and open up trade between Allanak and Tuluk. Actually, they should make travel between the two cities easier so materials could be more accessible for crafters, making GMH grow. Get some intercity alliances and conflicts going so that clanned members have something to do, indie hunters and scavengers too. Definition of "Inter" in this contextWithout spoiling too much (lol), what's this war over? The powers that be in Allanak wanted to establish an outpost in the Tan Muark lands, out of the blue one day. They went to Tyn Dashra. Tuluk said, "Oh no you di-iiin', and marched against them. Battle was had. A volcano was thrown. Since we all love conflict, why don't we feel it? I believe you do feel it. Please see the bolded section of the following quote. Ask yourself why this is, and there you will have your response. Again, if I wanted to wander into Allanak, I can. If I wander into the Gaj with my Northie accent, I'm stupid.Agree with this entire statement. Help me as an average, once in a while player, make sense of this war. Besides, "We love conflict, not sure about you." Sell me on this particular Allanak v Tuluk war. Thanks. For more details, please read the History of Zalanthas and try to think of it from the perspective that old wounds mend slowly. For real world examples of how this is often the case, look at the Middle East.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 19:51:12 GMT -5
Keep in mind, that the war is actually pretty recent. So far the chronology loosely would be something like this ;
Allanak conquered Tuluk Tuluk rebelled and freed itself Open hostilities turned into the cold war, occasionally interrupted by skirmishes Cold war slightly alleviated due to commerce, open hostilities discouraged or punished for by the higher up nobility/templarate due to it resulting in losses of revenue. Cold war turned into a very mellow alliance due to an outside threat A mellow alliance turned into cold war due to an outside threat fading out. Finally ... we now have an open war once again.
This war began last july I think. Right now all noble houses, soldiers, and templarate PCs are creating their own plots on how to fuck up their enemies and prove the superiority of their house in smiting the enemies of their god, etc. Various loyalist and treachery capable characters are being created to subvert the enemies, infiltrate, betray, or destroy whichever city. The imms are trying to set up the theme, and players are doing whatever they like with it. It could all turn out into nothing. With people not bothering to really war against each other, and in a year the Imms would run an animated fireworks show and somehow close this plot with something either awesome, or more likely something lame like Volcano tossing. Or people will create plots and ... perhaps affect the final fireworks show somehow. The skeptics will say that nothing PCs will do will effect the ending of the plot, others will say it does. I dont know. But in the end, some people will run their own plots to do something, and others wont.
Generally speaking, it is believed that Allanak is richer then Tuluk is. At least virtually. Due to Allanak being the sole source of obsidian which I guess is more valued then wood is, for whatever reason. Virtually anyway.
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Post by lyse on Mar 6, 2014 20:37:40 GMT -5
Keep in mind, that the war is actually pretty recent. So far the chronology loosely would be something like this ; Allanak conquered Tuluk Tuluk rebelled and freed itself Open hostilities turned into the cold war, occasionally interrupted by skirmishes Cold war slightly alleviated due to commerce, open hostilities discouraged or punished for by the higher up nobility/templarate due to it resulting in losses of revenue. Cold war turned into a very mellow alliance due to an outside threat A mellow alliance turned into cold war due to an outside threat fading out. Finally ... we now have an open war once again. This war began last july I think. Right now all noble houses, soldiers, and templarate PCs are creating their own plots on how to fuck up their enemies and prove the superiority of their house in smiting the enemies of their god, etc. Various loyalist and treachery capable characters are being created to subvert the enemies, infiltrate, betray, or destroy whichever city. The imms are trying to set up the theme, and players are doing whatever they like with it. It could all turn out into nothing. With people not bothering to really war against each other, and in a year the Imms would run an animated fireworks show and somehow close this plot with something either awesome, or more likely something lame like Volcano tossing. Or people will create plots and ... perhaps affect the final fireworks show somehow. The skeptics will say that nothing PCs will do will effect the ending of the plot, others will say it does. I dont know. But in the end, some people will run their own plots to do something, and others wont. Generally speaking, it is believed that Allanak is richer then Tuluk is. At least virtually. Due to Allanak being the sole source of obsidian which I guess is more valued then wood is, for whatever reason. Virtually anyway. Thanks for the non-asshole response. Still not sold on it, and feel like whatever the players do it's a predetermined outcome. And no I don't fucking feel it and I play a combat oriented character.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
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Post by delerak on Mar 6, 2014 21:43:33 GMT -5
A lot of shit on Arm makes zero sense. The fact that Tuluk sprung up in a matter of a few years into this massive all powerful city-state... come on.
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Post by jcarter on Mar 7, 2014 7:55:00 GMT -5
A lot of shit on Arm makes zero sense. The fact that Tuluk sprung up in a matter of a few years into this massive all powerful city-state... come on. because wizards, Delerak. because wizards.
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Post by topkekm8s on Mar 7, 2014 8:04:41 GMT -5
le magic did it le lel
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Mar 8, 2014 3:32:42 GMT -5
I think they should end the war.
Mostly because it is not accomplishing a goddamn thing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2014 3:47:35 GMT -5
I think they should end the war. Mostly because it is not accomplishing a goddamn thing. Pretty much. I mean, it was one battle that ended in a lolzmagick light show that was way above the paygrade of ANY player to influence. And you can only really expect that it'll continue in that vein for the forseeable future until the hostilities do choose to end.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Mar 8, 2014 3:52:33 GMT -5
I think they should end the war. Mostly because it is not accomplishing a goddamn thing. Pretty much. I mean, it was one battle that ended in a lolzmagick light show that was way above the paygrade of ANY player to influence. And you can only really expect that it'll continue in that vein for the forseeable future until the hostilities do choose to end. But like.... What even are the hostilities? The only notable differences since that HRPT are that the Gypsies don't have a home, and northern vs. southern player interactions are ten times as bitchy as usual.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2014 4:59:27 GMT -5
Pretty much. I mean, it was one battle that ended in a lolzmagick light show that was way above the paygrade of ANY player to influence. And you can only really expect that it'll continue in that vein for the forseeable future until the hostilities do choose to end. But like.... What even are the hostilities? The only notable differences since that HRPT are that the Gypsies don't have a home, and northern vs. southern player interactions are ten times as bitchy as usual. I wouldn't really know, tbh. I haven't seen anything since before the rpt really. I only heard about it on here. It happened after I got banned I think.
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dcdc
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Post by dcdc on Mar 8, 2014 9:32:29 GMT -5
Cause I'm a lazy fuck who just got off of two days of being horribly horribly ill, I will try to respond against the counter-argument overall as oppose to quoting different posts in this 4 page cluster fuck we call a thread. Remember first, I love you all, equally, as a bon fire loves wood. Any who. Player Dilution isn't a thing, at lest not in Armageddon. Why? Because the world ain't that big, the entire known can be traversed in a day, and almost everyone rather be in Allanak anyways. Player Dilution is a convenient argument for a certain class of player to help prevent/force other players into roles THEY like to see them in. Playerbase Dilution is an argument favored by mush leaning, social only players. You know? The one that brag about never having to use coded skills? The player base is fine, in fact the player base needs more places to be. You don't understand dilution, dilution isn't cause by having 5 different places to start new character (including rinith here). First all, all those places any player, regardless of age/skill can traverse in a couple hours AT max. Tired of red storm? what isn't 5-7 rooms north and you're at Allanak? Dilution is too much that a player -MUST- do/go/accomplish to be apart of the narrative of any plot. This sadly doesn't hold water to me, because my lonely desert types, when I felt damn good and ready... and when my characters motivations called for it. Suddenly found themselves power walked and head first into the all wonderful "plots". With out the ability to solo-rp, build up my character, and build that past of hunting/wandering/sekret magick stuff/ hiding from authorities. Their whole place in the world would of been... forced. Also stop calling for the nuking of City-states, the more I think it over... the more I think it's an anti-answer. Probably one as a collective we've got because we don't like a certain staff member... lets try move past it, and remember Tuluk role play isn't always bad, hasn't always been bad... and kind of has its place in the world now... Whether we like it or not. (Side note: I think Tuluk being or attempting to be an anti-thesis to Allanak is good. Maybe needed, you know without the Nyr fuckery, but we'll see if this will continue much longer... at this rate. What can we do? Do any of the producers care/play anymore?) Back to my point. The player base isn't diluted. I just don't see it, when I come across folks in red storm, when I come across folks grebbing in the salt plains, when I'm constantly seeing movement out by the road, or seeing regular updates to the game boards, I see no dilution. Character are capable of walking straight into plots when the player feels ready, and there is nothing wrong with it. As a MUD we are strangely at each others whims. No one logs in to completely play by themselves. At lest with not that specific intention... and if they do... who cares anyways? Let players, play, even as players we need to stop bitching about what each other do. We are still... dependent on each other, on a player to player level. With out other players... whats the point? Forcing players into roles, making certain roles harder... or impossible... well Isn't going to achieve any results. Its going to achieve a lower population while players leave the game for greener pastures. Or at lest a game or area that fits their desired play style... or current character concept. People refuse to be placed in boxes, so don't even attempt it. It often causes rebellion. And the last thing Arm needs is another group of jaded pissed off players who just want their damn game back. You might feel sometimes as you're playing in a Ghost Town? But I assure you, not every player, especially groups are going to be operating out in the open. As well, certain restrictions places on certain roles in certain clans does nothing to help prevent this "40 players on, but Allanak is a PC ghost town" but I think we are all in agreement there. I feel in the end, the real solution... is to make the game better. I think 70 players fucking sucks. I want 140. Arm could do it too, I'm confident as the pretty lights of modern gaming wears off on the older more mature role players. As table top games become harder to achieve and people further can't engage in the hobby. There is a real market there, abet niche... its there, and Armageddon with some very simple changes... some that ironically don't even need staff attention. Could explode in popularity. But maybe I'm an idealist. Player dilution isn't a thing, you should stop rolling boring characters
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Post by BitterFlashback on Mar 8, 2014 22:50:26 GMT -5
Honestly, if they really want to make the world smaller they should make it more dangerous. By reopening the gith and mantis to players. why the fuck is there even a mantis on the new Arm site? Theyve been closed for almost 2 decades. Is there a problem with having Allanak and Antiallanak? Yeah. it's that the latter is too far from the former.
What we cant understand conflict unless its some literary mirror image shit? Fuck that. The gith and mantis are more culturally alien than tuluk could ever be.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2014 1:18:11 GMT -5
Gith and Mantis's danger is only PK centred, while Tuluk/Allanak have other alternatives of conflict?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2014 8:24:42 GMT -5
There were a few gith PCs in the last 2 years. They were hunted down and killed the first week of showing up. Was it even intended to be long-term? Not sure what it was all about but it wasn't even a blip in the "fun things radar." If that's how re-opening giths to players is going to turn out though, the staff wouldn't want to invest another moment in supporting it.
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