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Post by pinkerdlu on Oct 10, 2023 16:16:38 GMT -5
Just like how you can't win at Armageddon, you can't win conversations on the GDB with logic. Figures. People are only allowed to be wrong on the GDB. If you speak too much truth, you get banned. But if you enjoy a virtual (moderated) hellscape where you're allowed to politely discuss the same topics again, and again, and again... without any solutions being presented or implemented... Well, my friend. Then the GDB is your paradise. The unfortunate truth is, your opinions aren't worth shit. The staff don't care until they're forced to. They'll sooner abandon the game than implement meaningful solutions. They keep adding magickal stuff to the game because magick is very easy and convenient for lazy storytelling. Roon pretty much hit it on the head. Also consider that most staff avatars are mages and high karma is most likely to be given to those that maintain good, productive, long-lasting relationships with staff members (see: staff friends). Here's the unmoderated thread before it got ruined by GDB mod cocksuckers. Not because it was a productive thread, but becuz fuck 'em: imgur.com/a/htyNoBJ
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baobob
Clueless newb
Posts: 119
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Post by baobob on Oct 11, 2023 19:22:07 GMT -5
It's probably just me, but I find it reassuring that I can still find a "Because? Because... fuck 'em!" post here when I need cheering up.
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
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Post by punished ppurg on Oct 11, 2023 22:47:57 GMT -5
An exchange I had just now. >>Nyr's reign truly sealed the death of the game.
>>Some might say that when Reborn was announced, Arm died. That's when we see the emergence of staff cheaters like Halaster. But it was a different spirit back then... "the game is dying, let's milk as much fun and excitement out of it as possible!! wooo!!" But then Reborn never happened, Arm never truly died, and that mentality stayed. Then you see Nyr and cronies essentially become an elitist cabal at the top of the game's hierarchy and rule it with an iron fist. That was the start of the end, really. When staff members decided to keep milking the game of every last drop of energy, passion and creativity instead of truly investing any of their own genuine effort into it
>I think you're right on the money. I've done some reflection about why it is that Arm feels special to me, why it still calls to me every now and then, why it still ghost-drives on the vapors of its own weight. And the answer that I came to was, in the years before I found it, with the competent authors like Sanvean & other staffers: though they HAD THEIR FLAWS, they were putting effort into the game in such a way that an author puts into their setting's creation. They really did make a whole other world in the work they did in the lore, in building, in the tropes that they employed to create a novel experience. And the best way that I can explain it is, like you said, Nyr set the precedent. It was no longer about the integrity of the game; rather it became an outfit for Nyr and his buddies to lord over people. Unworthy inheritors? It's like when you play Arm, you can read the first few books of a series where the original author put care into it. But now, the only book that you can "play", is done by these inheritors that only manage to disappoint.
>Take a quick Google search of "Frank Herbert vs Brian Herbert" and read the literary consensus on the difference in the voices of these two authors. The beginning Dune trilogy, great. Cerebral. With Frank's death, and his son Brian inheriting the rights of the Dune name, you see the change in presentation. "Frank Herbert was a master of internal dialog, of byzantine plots, of “plans within plans.” These elements permeated especially the first Dune novel. Brian Herbert & Kevin Anderson’s books are more straightforward space opera." >>original arm storytelling vs. the storytelling of the past 10 years. lol. AH GITH ARE ATTACKING. AH MANTIS. AH MAGICK. AHH ITS RAINING AGAIN. vs. the politics of the copper war for instance
>Can you see yourself applying these same criticisms to Arm? With Dune being one of the core inspirations of Arm, it's well placed. Where some readers criticize Brian for being "greedy" or after money, we criticize the staff clique of being vain and in pursuit of abusing the good faith of the game to their own ends, their own stories and their own jollies - at the expense of the playerbase. That was Looonsh & his ilk's sort, and the game suffered for a long time with staff like that in charge. Ever since Nyr. Those sorts of people would select their own, and staffers with integrity would either be rejected from the team (filth filtering for filth), or they would quickly self-select out and quit.
>>The inheritors that only manage to disappoint - and only continue the series in hope of turning a profit and prestige. Or in this case, playing what remains of the game with staff perks and absolute control, social status, discord friends, etc.
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jenki
Clueless newb
Posts: 156
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Post by jenki on Oct 12, 2023 10:01:29 GMT -5
To be fair, when Arm Reborn was announced Halaster was upset and left the game (preferring to play MMOs). It wasn't untilicj later he returned. Sorry to split hairs but accuracy is important to me. So just to be clear we're talking about cheaters -like- Halaster because Halaster had left at this point (only later to return shortly before Adhira and Co left.
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Post by pinkerdlu on Oct 12, 2023 13:03:31 GMT -5
To be fair, when Arm Reborn was announced Halaster was upset and left the game (preferring to play MMOs). It wasn't untilicj later he returned. Sorry to split hairs but accuracy is important to me. So just to be clear we're talking about cheaters -like- Halaster because Halaster had left at this point (only later to return shortly before Adhira and Co left. Plainsman and the other cheating staff sorcerers were around ~2006, no? Reborn was announced in 2006 and puttered out a few years later. So I'm not sure how important the distinction is. Halaster, Bhagvera and cronies go on a high-magick marathon, and threw a fit when the magick insanity opened up to the rest of the playerbase during/immediately following it? Stands to reason, that staff reign was the beginning of the end and set the precedent for following generations. However it all got less exciting and more petty... I could be wrong with those dates, and I appreciate accuracy too, so thanks for the post nonetheless. Interesting posts: armageddonmud.boards.net/post/32012armageddonmud.boards.net/post/59/thread
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Post by uncoolio on Oct 14, 2023 2:06:22 GMT -5
Nyr really was uniquely awful. There have been other bad staffers, but he's by far the worst admin I have ever seen on any MUD, having played countless since the mid-90s. Just a thoroughly reprehensible, spiteful individual obsessed with power and constantly seeking to wield it against players. If he had no legitimate reason, he'd just make something up.
He was ruinous to the game and the relationship between players and staff. It's no coincidence that Armageddon's decline began with his tenure and somewhat stalled with his departure, but the damage is still done. Some of his influence still lingers in the game, and the rift he created between players and staff compelled some players to lay off the copium and speak up about their grievances instead of keeping silent.
While being open about a game's problems is generally a good thing, a game with as many problems as Armageddon will quickly develop a heavy element of negativity within its community when people stop censoring themselves and start saying what they really feel. Even if keeping quiet about those problems doesn't solve anything, open dissent is even worse if it still doesn't solve them.
In a MUD community (or any small, insular community of any kind), it's actually better for people to bite their tongue and huff copium than to voice their complaints about things and discover that it doesn't help. The best thing would be for people to voice their complaints and see change for the better as a result, but if that's not an option, it's better actually if those people are sufficiently content to just grin and bear it. Dissent without useful results doesn't help anybody, but Nyr's administrative style set Armageddon up for that very thing.
That's not to say that Armageddon hasn't seen changes, and some of them have been for the better--but many of the problems that Nyr made the order of the day are still present to one degree or another.
It's still an inert game where very little happens on a day-to-day basis and players face huge obstacles if they ever try to do anything that doesn't fit within the curated pockets of staff-sanctioned generic gameplay (hunt, spar, craft, fuck, gossip). When some larger event does happen once in a blue moon, it's usually way out of reach of ordinary players who end up being mostly spectators with no serious role to play in it all.
It's still a game where players who feel aggrieved by staff actions face impossible odds if they try to complain. They'll defend each other beyond the limits of reason, turn a blind eye to abuse, trash-talk players on the immortal channels, etc. There's a weirdly juvenile vengefulness from staff if they ever come to perceive you as a "problem player," and some of them will go out of their way to sabotage your character if they don't like you. Meanwhile, their old friends get away with anything, and woe to any who might complain about that. You can land on the list of problem players simply by being the victim of a twinky piece of shit who you sent in a complaint about and didn't know it was someone with friends in high places.
It's still a game whose staff choose the most baffling things to work on. You can have a year where the hottest topic is the fact that people don't play in cities anymore, and what does staff do? Add a new race with absolutely no connection to any cities, located in the middle of nowhere. Players long for a war like in the game's golden age, and what does staff do? Vaguely dangle the promise of war in front of everyone, but give a few sponsored non-combat players the opportunity to call it all off if they want to, which they then did.
These are the kinds of fork-tongued methods that Nyr represented, and while the staff culture is not as bad today as it was then, his influence is still there and still affects the way Armageddon is being run. Look at how they handled the big Shalooonsh scandal this year. First they fucking BANNED the asshole's victims. Then they hemmed and hawed when the whole playerbase revolted against them. Then when it was clear that they could not get away with subjugating people and browbeating them into acceptance, they discreetly allowed him to stroll out the back door and have ignored the whole ordeal ever since. That's the Nyr playbook, except when he was around, he would have been satisfied with baning everyone who complained and then silencing any further discussion of the event while calling people malcontents if they hinted further at it. Baby steps, I guess. Very slow and tiny baby steps.
Back in the days of Nyr's rule, I had a character in Tuluk while he was in charge of the city. My character was a bard but not a member of any of the circles. I sang some vaguely comedic songs in taverns a few times, nothing particularly ambitious, and did card tricks (using the pickpocket skills, mainly peek and sleight of hand) as one of the PC's roleplay gimmicks.
One day, someone animated an NPC master bard and told me I ought to join one of the circles. Totally unprompted, never instigated by me in any way, never heard of the NPC in question, never expressed any desire whatsoever to talk to them or anyone. Joining wasn't part of my plans, so I said I'd think it over but did some internal dialogue about not really intending to. Then over the course of the next two weeks, this NPC bard kept contacting me with increasingly threatening suggestions of joining a circle, until he finally said he'd have me killed if I didn't.
At that point, I re-checked the helpfile on bardic circles--and sure enough, as I had remembered, it said that "some bards choose to join a bardic circle." I wished up to point this out and expressed my displeasure with having an NPC animated to send me death threats for not joining. Nyr, revealing himself to be the one behind it, immediately responded in a highly confrontational manner. He deflected my actual complaint, ignoring my citing the documentation, and promptly accused me of "twinking my skills" by using peek and sleight of hand to do card tricks. He then swiftly railroaded the conversation into force-storing my character. There was no talking to him. He just felt like ruining a player. I had never communicated with him personally before then and was not, to my knowledge, in bad standing with staff. He simply picked me as someone to fuck over.
They don't go to those extremes anymore, but if you aren't one of the players they expressly like, you can still find yourself the target of an arbitrary fucking-over. Being set perma-wanted for minor things, refusal of any request they can possibly justify declining, exclusively punitive animations, all those little things that make you feel vaguely unwelcome. And in exchange for that, do you get a game that's brimming with activity and drowning in exciting everyday events? No, you get a stagnant nothingburger where approximately fifteen staff members manage to put together all the productive energy and creative spark of three depressed accountants hooked on ketamine.
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Post by pinkerdlu on Oct 15, 2023 17:29:07 GMT -5
It's still an inert game where very little happens on a day-to-day basis and players face huge obstacles if they ever try to do anything that doesn't fit within the curated pockets of staff-sanctioned generic gameplay (hunt, spar, craft, fuck, gossip). When some larger event does happen once in a blue moon, it's usually way out of reach of ordinary players who end up being mostly spectators with no serious role to play in it all. It's still a game where players who feel aggrieved by staff actions face impossible odds if they try to complain. They'll defend each other beyond the limits of reason, turn a blind eye to abuse, trash-talk players on the immortal channels, etc. There's a weirdly juvenile vengefulness from staff if they ever come to perceive you as a "problem player," and some of them will go out of their way to sabotage your character if they don't like you. Meanwhile, their old friends get away with anything, and woe to any who might complain about that. You can land on the list of problem players simply by being the victim of a twinky piece of shit who you sent in a complaint about and didn't know it was someone with friends in high places. It's still a game whose staff choose the most baffling things to work on. You can have a year where the hottest topic is the fact that people don't play in cities anymore, and what does staff do? Add a new race with absolutely no connection to any cities, located in the middle of nowhere. Players long for a war like in the game's golden age, and what does staff do? Vaguely dangle the promise of war in front of everyone, but give a few sponsored non-combat players the opportunity to call it all off if they want to, which they then did. Great post. It's really sad seeing Armageddon in its current state as someone who still appreciates the RPI/MUD medium compared to 99% of what's out there. The refusal from staff to (meaningfully) innovate or considerate alternative perspectives is baffling.
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baron
Clueless newb
Posts: 119
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Post by baron on Oct 16, 2023 11:03:31 GMT -5
just a thought
Maybe Armageddon is dying because its 2023 and it's a text-based game from the 1990s.
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Post by uncoolio on Oct 16, 2023 13:15:51 GMT -5
There's plenty of room for RPIs in 2023.
Just not bad ones run by people who aren't doing what it takes to make an RPI work in 2023.
Given Armageddon's status in the genre, almost anyone who ever tries a serious RP MUD will cross paths with Arm or at least hear about it. It's just that the ones running the game these days have let it become a dull affair that doesn't offer anything to anybody who has standards of any kind.
It wasn't more than like two years ago when Arx launched and immediately attracted something like two hundred players. This tells us that there's a market for a good roleplaying experience. Unfortunately, it has been some time since Armageddon could claim to offer any such thing.
It used to be great. Then really bad people joined staff and drove away most of the players who had any standards. Then those staff members (read: Nyr and his crew) left staff, but very little was done to repair the damage he had done or bring back the players who quit because of him.
That's how Armageddon entered its decline. Not because you can't get a few hundred people out of the global popluation of eight-something billion to play a MUD, but because this one in particular stopped being attractive.
While it's true that MUDs have declined in popularity for years and years, the ones that are good have resisted that decline. Meanwhile, Armageddon has lost something like 50% of its playerbase in the last decade, and although there have been efforts to update the code, they've never seemed able or willing to tackle the issue that is: very little goes on in the game, and while a staff roster of that size should be able to change that fact, they don't.
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Post by pinkerdlu on Oct 16, 2023 14:09:16 GMT -5
just a thought Maybe Armageddon is dying because its 2023 and it's a text-based game from the 1990s. Weren't you comparing Armageddon to scientology and calling it a cult earlier this year? But yeah bro - great post! You're a genius!
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baron
Clueless newb
Posts: 119
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Post by baron on Oct 16, 2023 19:24:49 GMT -5
Yeah, well, the ex-scientologists spend all day thinking about why scientology failed, too. It's always because so-so is a bad administrator, and not because scientology is a played out scam contrived by a shit science-fiction author.
Just saying. Nyr or no Nyr, the game was going to end eventually. Circa 2023 seems like eventually to me.
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Post by picklehead on Oct 16, 2023 20:06:49 GMT -5
just a thought Maybe Armageddon is dying because its 2023 and it's a text-based game from the 1990s. I think there's a market for good text-based role-playing games in a predominantly graphically-driven gaming world. People still read books while movies and television exist. They allow more space for your imagination to take hold. A text-based role-playing game potentially allows you to join with others in creating your very own story, with a character that you created, in what should be a vibrant and fleshed-out world. That's a pretty compelling idea. The problem lies in creating a world that allows enough space for people to create these characters and gives them enough agency to tell their stories and have the kinds of impact on the pre-existing world that they'd like to see. There's also a balancing act between making sure that players can actually achieve their goals with a reasonable commitment of time, while also keeping it from being a one-day quest to transform yourself into a dragon. You also probably need to automate a lot of things on the player side so that they aren't constantly having to run to the staff for every little thing.. and staff and players both should have a lot more tools at their disposal on both sides. Then of course you need to staff the game with the right kinds of people who aren't going to constantly cut players legs off at the knees and constantly squash everything they ever try to do for no apparent reason. And if you DO happen to have that initial core group of staff who are doing all the right things and building and maintaining a great game, how do you ensure their legacy continues if/when they decide to call it quits? How do you prevent situations where bad staffers like Nyr rise to power, fill the ranks with like-minded toadies, and poison the well for the rest of time? That's just the tip of the iceberg as far as the problems with making it all work, but I think there are plenty of people out there who would enjoy sinking some of their free time into what amounts to a living novel.
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Post by pinkerdlu on Oct 17, 2023 0:27:20 GMT -5
Just saying. Nyr or no Nyr, the game was going to end eventually. Circa 2023 seems like eventually to me. Sure, but I don't think that sort of reductionist logic is productive or interesting for discussing what remains of this silly text-based game from the 90s. Obviously there are a lot of factors that contributed to Armageddon's demise/decline to its current state. A lot of them were avoidable and some of them are still correctable to this day. Just because all things eventually end, doesn't mean that people should favor inaction or a "maintenance mentality". It's good to be reactionary and want to correct things that are broken - because that means you care. But if you think things are futile, that's understandable. I personally agree with uncoolio and modocf1 that a text-based game could still do well in 2023. That's just the tip of the iceberg as far as the problems with making it all work, but I think there are plenty of people out there who would enjoy sinking some of their free time into what amounts to a living novel. The sentiment is shared ^
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,695
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 18, 2023 5:55:56 GMT -5
"The game would have died anyway" is a cowardly argument that fails to take into account the fact that many text-based roleplaying games grew while Armageddon shrunk. With the #1 biggest shrinkage occurring around the time Nyr decided to change Tuluk with one overcompensating change after another, trying to fix what prior changes broke and breaking more things in the process. And when just about everyone except the Tuluk lifers like Raleris and Tallis's players decided that Tuluk wasn't worth their time, he set in motion the closure of Tuluk in the ultimate take-my-ball-and-go-home move, and caused the steepest decline in the playerbase the game had ever seen as his last act before quitting staff entirely.
This was AFTER Shadows of Isildur had closed the Northlands sphere and caused its own exodus within the playerbase. This was AFTER being told internally by other staff that what happened to SoI would happen to Armageddon. Nyr knew precisely what would happen, and decided to set the game's ruin in motion as one last big fuck-you to its players.
Armageddon's decline is directly linked to the arrogance of its owners and the use of the game as a testing ground for half-assed ideas. You need only look to the popularity of MUSHes and the new RPIs to see that people want to play text-based roleplaying games in 2023. They increasingly just don't want to play Armageddon. And for good fucking reason.
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,695
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 18, 2023 7:07:12 GMT -5
Honestly I think it's less insanity, more masochism. I guess it's better than having people put out their cigarettes on you. There's definitely a lot of masochism involved. Miradus, if you SO BADLY want a harsh survival experience... just go play Apocalypse solo. You know, the game that you staffed during the last two iterations. That completely failed and died both times... Because you have no clue what players actually want or what makes a good game. gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59912.msg1098216.html#new This gdb thread is pretty funny. You have players passive aggressively alluding to how the game is deader than ever. And you have an ex-Apoc staffer and failed game admin, with the unpopular and nonsensical opinion trying to dictate what type of game Arm is. Lemme help you figure that one out... Armageddon is a dying game because the producers have yet to take decisive action or even attempt to revive/save it. If you aren't going to completely rework the cities and clans, which is what you need to do to save Arm, at least implement changes to make it feel less barren for the couple dozens players that still care to mudfuck and idle at the bar. Leaving the gates open might help with that. Miradus is one of those players that hangs around Armageddon to be a cool desert samurai. RP and the expectation of it is simply an obstacle to his goal to live vicariously through his character. He struggles with even the most basic elements of Zalanthas (his misogynistic Kadian merchant comes to mind). When X-D is a better roleplayer than you, there is a problem.
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