Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 13:01:37 GMT -5
I realize that I've been branded as the only one who is bitter enough to is not benevolent to your apologies and I'm sorry for that, Nergal.
I just find the matter insufficient and very disingenuous.
Please understand the situation. You've done a lot of unfair things in your time. You know this and are owning up to it. Thank you. But the time has passed and people forget. People learn to sharpen their pitch forks at people who are relevant 'now', instead of years ago. Sometimes for real reasons, sometimes for reasons imagined.
You show up and do a blanket apology. Which, if one is to be benevolent and accept it, clears you of all the misdoings, from mild to significant. At the same time, you portray yourself a victim of circumstance and point out people that are relevant 'now', and blame them for things.
What's happening in practice is that you show up and say "my bad, folks!" And since everything you've done was years ago, everyone just hand wave you. Then you proceed to excuse your deeds, blaming people that are doing things 'now'.
So what is the purpose of your writ here? What good came out of it? Did it make you feel better? You basically validated someone who created a fake account and accused a person of sexual harassment. Fake logs and everything. Was that your intention?
I know it looks ugly when a person refuses to be benevolent to another when they are in a supplicant position. But I find the apology disingenuous. If you genuinely want to make amends, speak of them in detail, instead of glossing over. And if you can't tell which of what you did deserved apology and what was righteous, then you aren't really apologetic. Disillusioned maybe, but not apologetic.
In your apology you speak ill of a few people. But you gloss over the details. Now every goblin with a bone to pick can make shit up and refer to your post as validation. Was this your intention?
There are talks here about admins editing the stats of their characters right now and the claim appears legit, because of what you wrote here. Was this your intention?
I don't know whom you are apologising to. But I do not believe it is to the playerbase of Armageddon. A small band of people who are filled with hatred that originated before you even began playing the game. You are apologising to them. And validating practices like fake logs, fake accusations, the making up of stories just to make shit appear bad, leaking code, creating stat prioretized dwarves just to kill a PC in a suicide attack. These are the things you've just justified right now. Was that your intention?
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najdorf
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 265 
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Post by najdorf on Jan 16, 2020 13:09:37 GMT -5
I realize that I've been branded as the only one who is bitter enough to is not benevolent to your apologies and I'm sorry for that, Nergal. I just find the matter insufficient and very disingenuous. Please understand the situation. You've done a lot of unfair things in your time. You know this and are owning up to it. Thank you. But the time has passed and people forget. People learn to sharpen their pitch forks at people who are relevant 'now', instead of years ago. Sometimes for real reasons, sometimes for reasons imagined. You show up and do a blanket apology. Which, if one is to be benevolent and accept it, clears you of all the misdoings, from mild to significant. At the same time, you portray yourself a victim of circumstance and point out people that are relevant 'now', and blame them for things. What's happening in practice is that you show up and say "my bad, folks!" And since everything you've done was years ago, everyone just hand wave you. Then you proceed to excuse your deeds, blaming people that are doing things 'now'. So what is the purpose of your writ here? What good came out of it? Did it make you feel better? You basically validated someone who created a fake account and accused a person of sexual harassment. Fake logs and everything. Was that your intention? I know it looks ugly when a person refuses to be benevolent to another when they are in a supplicant position. But I find the apology disingenuous. If you genuinely want to make amends, speak of them in detail, instead of glossing over. And if you can't tell which of what you did deserved apology and what was righteous, then you aren't really apologetic. Disillusioned maybe, but not apologetic. In your apology you speak ill of a few people. But you gloss over the details. Now every goblin with a bone to pick can make shit up and refer to your post as validation. Was this your intention? There are talks here about admins editing the stats of their characters right now and the claim appears legit, because of what you wrote here. Was this your intention? I don't know whom you are apologising to. But I do not believe it is to the playerbase of Armageddon. A small band of people who are filled with hatred that originated before you even began playing the game. You are apologising to them. And validating practices like fake logs, fake accusations, the making up of stories just to make shit appear bad, leaking code, creating stat prioretized dwarves just to kill a PC in a suicide attack. These are the things you've just justified right now. Was that your intention? You have to admit, it's better than nothing. His revelation means a lot to me. From a scale of 1 to 10, it's 8-9ish in a positive sense. The reason you are branded is because you either like to oppose everything for the sake of it, or you are here to troll. I believe it's the first. You are an edge character in RL. I bet we are all freaks in a sense, but you are just leading the race. |
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Post by shakes on Jan 16, 2020 13:15:28 GMT -5
His apology isn't a perfect ten. But I'm not the kind of asshole who is going to bash someone for the quality of their apology.
Particularly when I'd be doing it from the sideline. He's not apologizing specific to me because I don't know that he and I ever really had an interaction.
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nergal
staff puppet account
Noted Liar
Posts: 46
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Post by nergal on Jan 16, 2020 13:17:51 GMT -5
I am posting here, because it is a great opportunity for players to resonate to what staff actually thinks about them, players who have powered/twinked their characters and had the feeling that they are hated because of it, and their entire efforts of actual RP (aside from their powerplaying) is ignored. Because the amount of negative notes I received is significantly higher than positive feedback. I have spent 10x more time giving to the world, roleplaying and creating positive RP environments for others as well, but looking at my staff notes, it is mostly the bad. As if the staff has a fixated opinion and once you powerplay, all your good efforts are ignored as a punishment too. Is that really the case? A lot of staff perception of you relies on context, especially with respect to account notes. And a big part of context is time. If you have a couple, or even a lot, of bad notes in the distant past, but you've been a great contributor to the game since, and applied for a sponsored role, I'd probably look at that and say "let's give them a chance". But not everyone is going to look at it the same way and there's no rule of thumb as to when account notes start getting ignored. If it were up to me, negative notes from the past wouldn't matter at all unless they were similar to more recent negative notes. So to answer your question: it mostly depends on the staff member and how willing they are to read your account notes charitably. Account notes get looked at anytime an account note might need to be added or if you're applying for a special role or for staff. They're sometimes discussed if discussion of them is relevant for something like a role application. So mostly it just depends on how relevant a note would be. There's no hard and fast rule for when they get added or discussed. |
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nergal
staff puppet account
Noted Liar
Posts: 46
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Post by nergal on Jan 16, 2020 13:29:30 GMT -5
@qwerty, I'm sorry you don't find my apology sufficient. But you've been giving me bad vibes since I made my initial post. Your posts thus far have been targeted at discrediting me by trying to poke holes in what I remember or trying to see if I will try to make up an answer to a question when I have no idea why the question's being asked. Now you're starting to tell me I did things that I didn't do. The extent to which I remember or describe the things I did is irrelevant when different people have different views of what I did and it was so long ago that I couldn't possibly come up with every detail. I've acknowledged I was heavy-handed and far too eager to go along with the rest of staff.
The only person I blame for any action I mentioned in this thread is myself. All I can tell you is that my apology is genuinely directed at anyone who's played this game in the past or present that had to deal with me, like I already said.
Please stop trying to make me feel guilty for the act of apologizing just because of where I chose to post it. It's not going to work. If people believe that my post validates other things discussed here, then perhaps that's a question of credibility rather than intent.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 13:53:14 GMT -5
Well. You chose a forum where nobody would be willing to give you bad vibes. To challenge the narrative you are trying to run. Since your apology is more aimed about bashing the state of affairs of the game that you no longer run (which you never changed when you actually had influence to).
You could right now claim that Adhira asked players to create 13 year old boys and summoned them to her staff room and she would not be able to defend herself. And a vast percentage of this forums posters here would support that statement.
I'm sorry I had to do a little test on you. I genuinely thought it was 3 alts, not 5. But my experience is from before you joined staff. Either it got changed, or my memory is faulty. The latter is plausible. It did make me wonder if you are real. People pretended to be you in Armageddon negative reviews before.
Don't be offended for me challenging you. You seriously picked a place where nobody will, because you are singing their song. And placed yourself in position where it would be ugly and against the stream to challenge you.
All I can say is that player/staff relations improved significantly after your departure, Nergal. It wasn't perfect. It wasn't even "good". But improvement was so drastically better, that the void you left was very noticeable.
I don't know why you chose to post here. If it was just a way to make yourself feel better by shrugging off the burden of things you did that made you cringe, as well as doing one final poke at people who chose to move on without you. Then okey. Sad, but whatever. Your choice.
If you actually wanted to ease the burden of your deeds to rectify the damage you've done. You just made things worse.
You began well! And if the intention is indeed that, you could still try to do it. I would applaud you for it. But that would require effort and discussion, and conversation with people who are giving you bad vibes and disagree with you.
Otherwise. You are just one more person doing potshots at others while they can't defend themselves. Leaving them no option to be dismissive about your statements. (That's what Rathustra was telling you btw, Shakes).
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Jan 16, 2020 13:55:17 GMT -5
I want to say this very simply.
Anyone can do this. A player can do this, a staffer can do this. Retired staff, active staff. The only barrier between Nergal and Adhira or Nessalin is that he can take no action beyond apologizing and answering our questions. An active staff like Adhira/Nessalin can go further and make an official policy update. Even if it's to say we are aware of a culture problem amongst staff and are looking to address it. We encourage feedback via request too based on things people find disheartening or abrasive during request tool interactions. Then you take it all and go okay people don't like one word or short sentence replies, it makes them feel irrelevant or ignored. Check. All request tool response will now be 3 sentences! People don't like when staff hint they might have misread something in their request. All request tool responses will now be 3 sentences, 1 of which is reflecting a summary of what they believed the player reported.
Am I saying that is what should happen? No. Admit some mistakes, admit some changes, deliver on the changes (doesn't have to be right away), be willing to endure some skepticism.
EDIT - PS Qwerty is the height of hypocrisy. No one will challenge you (except him) and he won't do it in an intellectually honest manner because he wants a gotcha so regardless of the truth he can get his quote / soundbite to parade around.
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Post by LordOfChange on Jan 16, 2020 13:55:59 GMT -5
whats stopping adhira grom defending herself here?
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Jan 16, 2020 13:58:48 GMT -5
I take it back qwerty is a piece of shit.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Jan 16, 2020 14:06:49 GMT -5
PPS - If the staff refuse to post here under their names just take his 1st post. Copy paste it. Create a thread called staff thoughts on a recent former staffers statements. Boom then the GDB can circlejerk to their hearts content and then Nergal can't defend himself!
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Post by shakes on Jan 16, 2020 14:09:40 GMT -5
Otherwise. You are just one more person doing potshots at others while they can't defend themselves. Leaving them no option to be dismissive about your statements. (That's what Rathustra was telling you btw, Shakes). Actually, they CAN defend themselves. Any staff from Arm is perfectly welcome to come here, create an account, and explain their side of any issue. Only I imagine they won't because this is an unmoderated location where they don't have complete control, and it's fairly hostile here to staff for various reasons. Would it remain as hostile if they came, presented themselves as human, and made a reasoned case instead of just saying, "I'm the boss, bitches"? I don't know if it would. At least I'd see it as a decent attempt and it would make some of the diehard haters look somewhat irrational. As for what Rathustra was trying to tell me ... he's got my Discord handle now. He's welcome to discuss it and I'll give my take on it, with 30 years of mud experience behind me. And if he wants to keep it confidential then I'll commit to that as well, just as I've kept stuff confidential with you. |
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nergal
staff puppet account
Noted Liar
Posts: 46
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Post by nergal on Jan 16, 2020 14:14:31 GMT -5
Well. You chose a forum where nobody would be willing to give you bad vibes. To challenge the narrative you are trying to run. Since your apology is more aimed about bashing the state of affairs of the game that you no longer run (which you never changed when you actually had influence to). I posted in the place I expected I would get the most fair reaction, considering what I'm apologizing for. And I expected unfiltered anger, and I got some of that via PM and apologized for my role in those circumstances later. So you're wrong on sentence #1. And your last bit in parentheses is wrong, though conveniently for you, it would require me to speak ill of staff (to use your own words) or criticize staff (to use my own) to explain why. Given the shaky foundation on the start of your post, I don't feel that addressing the rest of your post is necessary or useful. |
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Post by jcarter on Jan 16, 2020 14:25:42 GMT -5
Please understand the situation. You've done a lot of unfair things in your time. You know this and are owning up to it. Thank you. But the time has passed and people forget. People learn to sharpen their pitch forks at people who are relevant 'now', instead of years ago. Sometimes for real reasons, sometimes for reasons imagined. you regularly complain about people complaining about old incidences. now suddenly you're complaining that people aren't mad enough about old situations??? he didn't excuse his deeds. he owned up to them by stating i did this, i should not have done that, i am sorry. Well. You chose a forum where nobody would be willing to give you bad vibes. huh? you were one of the first posters in this thread, and you challenged him and gave him bad vibes. Don't be offended for me challenging you. You seriously picked a place where nobody will, because you are singing their song. And placed yourself in position where it would be ugly and against the stream to challenge you. he was challenged in discord and verified by my2sids what are you talking about? staff are more than able to defend themselves. who/what/how are they prevented from this? |
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Post by shakes on Jan 16, 2020 14:27:32 GMT -5
Look, Nergal. I'm going to lay this out as best as I can.
You were mean and you hurt some nerd feelings. You've apologized. Not everyone will accept an apology, but some will. What's important is that you did what IS in your control and you apologized. An important part of your growth as a human, and you got my full support in that.
As perspective, some of my previous actions led to a lot of dead people. Not game dead people. Real dead people. Dead men, women, and children killed at the hands of a foreign government when I not only could have prevented it (for a little while, at least) or at least not participated in it. I can't apologize because they're dead. I can't apologize because they're in another country that doesn't even exist anymore and they'd shoot me if I even showed up to try.
So don't feel so fucking bad about something you did in your youth. Nobody died. You've apologized. It's done and you can't undo it. We're happy to have you here and we'd like to discuss game mechanics, problems with running a mud, or specific to an RPI, or whatever. Some of us are going to try out new muds, some of us are starting a new one, and some of us just like the concept of muds and like to discuss the systems involved. You have interesting experience in all of that shit, so welcome to the conversation. Anyone who wants to continue to dwell on your past misdeeds past the point of your apology needs to work on their own soul, not be poking at yours.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Jan 16, 2020 14:28:38 GMT -5
Lets ask some Qwerty themed questions in a non-asshole manner. Nergal if you please...
1. Do you believe the staff act maliciously or is it something else?
2. Do you believe that any single individual on staff is specifically responsible for the different eras of ups or downs (positive or negative)?
3. Do you think that the statement "necessary or useful" is akin to previous dismissive statements you have made as a staffer?
4. If you could say anything to staff publicly while this is a hot topic and people are looking, what would it be?
5. If there is any player(s) you specifically want to apologize for that you have not been contacted in PMs who would they be?
6. In your opinion does 'to many' hours logged in as a player or staffer cause a problem on any game not just Armageddon? If yes is there some threshold of hours you personally feel like you saw a distinct shift in personality or behaviour in yourself?
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