nergal
staff puppet account
Noted Liar
Posts: 46
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Post by nergal on Jan 16, 2020 6:42:41 GMT -5
theres nothing quite like projecting ur feelings abt a completely ic elven slur onto a game that neither needs it nor ur anxiety abt how it makes u feel abt a rl slur if there are any things staff can do to try and placate a dwindling pbase that or any other attempt to soften or cushion the theme to make it more palatable to ppl too immature or lazy to separate ooc and ic should be the utter last of them It was a stupid bit of social justice posturing generally done by a specific type of asshat who wants to show how nice and woke they are by embracing large, metaphorical and relatively intangible issues instead of owning up to how they're the same piece of shit who is prone to yelling at the barista for getting their triple nipple vanilla caramel swirl double foam organic cruelty-free latte with a re-usable straw they brought from home so as not to kill the sea turtles. Stop being such little bitches, sea turtles. And stop stealing my bait when I go fishing. One of these days one of you fat green fuckers are going to bite into my hook when nobody is looking and I'm going to eat your turtle-ass on the halfshell right there on the fucking beach. That'll teach you to get straws banned. Don't fuck with a species with thumbs, is what I'm saying. Fucking reptile losers. Of course, I wasn't trying to be an asshat. I was trying to apply a blanket policy to a problem one player caused. A common theme to the mistakes I made. It would've been better resolved by talking to that player about it and then, if necessary, talking with players in general to form some kind of consensus. |
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nergal
staff puppet account
Noted Liar
Posts: 46
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Post by nergal on Jan 16, 2020 6:51:17 GMT -5
But given the dirty laundry that has been aired, I do have a question for Nergal that I would appreciate him answering. A bit of backstory to reduce any speculation: For a short while I was a staff member in Armageddon. I never did anything of consequence. None of you will remember me. A lot of people currently playing the game wouldn't have even been around when I was a staff member. I was the same as a staff member as I have been as a player: truly inconsequential with never having achieved anything in my time playing the game (other than entertaining myself). When I was on staff, which was before Nergal's time, there was a staff contract that we were all meant to follow and I am 100% convinced that one of the items on that contract prohibited you from watching players engage in mudsex. Was that still the case when you were on staff and was it ever actually enforced? I'm guessing the answer is no to either one, or both, questions. But I did want to ask. I don't think it was strictly outlined in staff policy that it was forbidden, but it was highly frowned upon and staff were encouraged to avoid it whenever possible, by ceasing to monitor characters when they start mudsex or leaving the room if mudsex started there. That encouragement obviously didn't stop some staff members from doing it anyway, and I wish that it had been strictly forbidden. When I observed other inappropriate behavior that resulted from monitoring mudsex, I brought it up, and staff were disciplined, but never to the point that they were dismissed from staff - in many cases, not for lack of trying. |
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gdbjohn
staff puppet account
Posts: 25
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Post by gdbjohn on Jan 16, 2020 6:53:15 GMT -5
Of course, I wasn't trying to be an asshat. I was trying to apply a blanket policy to a problem one player caused. A common theme to the mistakes I made. It would've been better resolved by talking to that player about it and then, if necessary, talking with players in general to form some kind of consensus. You should have dealt with the players who caused a problem (there'd been posts here of a few people doing it. They were probably newer players or bored players who would have stopped it had they been told to do so and given some form of entertainment beyond ganking random NPCs in the 'rinth). But I call bullshit that any sort of meaningful consensus can ever be gotten on the GDB. That's where staff go when they want to get an idea rubber stamped.
Because the GDB is filled with the same group of people who: 1. Say yes to everything staff say 2. Say no to everything staff say 3. Embrace any and all changes as being good. 4. Reject any and all changes as being bad.
1 and 3 are often paired together along with 2 and 4. And the group from #1 will often bend over backwards to try to guess what staff want the answer to be and then provide them with that answer. And it makes sure staff can say "Whelp. Guess there's support for this. We're now implementing it."
The number of people who actually apply any sort of reasoning to ideas are few and far between and they get drowned out by the sycophants and the haters. Staff love to hand pick which parts of the playerbase they listen to in order to justify what they want to do. And it's all complete bullshit.
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gdbjohn
staff puppet account
Posts: 25
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Post by gdbjohn on Jan 16, 2020 6:54:44 GMT -5
But given the dirty laundry that has been aired, I do have a question for Nergal that I would appreciate him answering. A bit of backstory to reduce any speculation: For a short while I was a staff member in Armageddon. I never did anything of consequence. None of you will remember me. A lot of people currently playing the game wouldn't have even been around when I was a staff member. I was the same as a staff member as I have been as a player: truly inconsequential with never having achieved anything in my time playing the game (other than entertaining myself). When I was on staff, which was before Nergal's time, there was a staff contract that we were all meant to follow and I am 100% convinced that one of the items on that contract prohibited you from watching players engage in mudsex. Was that still the case when you were on staff and was it ever actually enforced? I'm guessing the answer is no to either one, or both, questions. But I did want to ask. I don't think it was strictly outlined in staff policy that it was forbidden, but it was highly frowned upon and staff were encouraged to avoid it whenever possible, by ceasing to monitor characters when they start mudsex or leaving the room if mudsex started there. That encouragement obviously didn't stop some staff members from doing it anyway, and I wish that it had been strictly forbidden. When I observed other inappropriate behavior that resulted from monitoring mudsex, I brought it up, and staff were disciplined, but never to the point that they were dismissed from staff - in many cases, not for lack of trying. Glad to hear I didn't just imagine it. Disappointing that it was never really properly enforced. I guess that's how you get Nyr and stuff. Thanks for answering  |
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nergal
staff puppet account
Noted Liar
Posts: 46
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Post by nergal on Jan 16, 2020 6:54:48 GMT -5
Pretty sure you smoked a bowl of oregano laced with meth, shakes . Damn man. @qwerty - This guy is definitely nergal . When I read the Discord it struck me how fast I was reminded he played Raleris. Like jkarr, I vary my writing style and vocabulary from site to site so people won't automatically recognize me. Nergal writes conversationally the same way he conversed as Raleris. I would have been impressed if someone was willing to imitate his style for several hours in live chat, but no, he's him. nergal , you mentioned you burned out on MUDing because of Arm. I can certainly relate. It hasn't burned me out on game design though. We have numerous threads on how Arm could have been improved, or how to make a MUD without driving off a cliff and killing all your fucking players in the process like Arm does, and so on. You may want to give them a read and toss out a thought or two before you bail on the forum forever. I'm not sure I have any advice on running a MUD that anyone should follow, besides treating the person on the other side of the conversation like a human being instead of falling into an "us vs. them, the game-runners know best" sort of mentality. But game design is a hobby of mine as well and I'll see what two cents I can contribute to those threads you're referring to. |
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nergal
staff puppet account
Noted Liar
Posts: 46
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Post by nergal on Jan 16, 2020 6:59:20 GMT -5
Of course, I wasn't trying to be an asshat. I was trying to apply a blanket policy to a problem one player caused. A common theme to the mistakes I made. It would've been better resolved by talking to that player about it and then, if necessary, talking with players in general to form some kind of consensus. You should have dealt with the players who caused a problem (there'd been posts here of a few people doing it. They were probably newer players or bored players who would have stopped it had they been told to do so and given some form of entertainment beyond ganking random NPCs in the 'rinth). But I call bullshit that any sort of meaningful consensus can ever be gotten on the GDB. That's where staff go when they want to get an idea rubber stamped. Because the GDB is filled with the same group of people who: 1. Say yes to everything staff say 2. Say no to everything staff say 3. Embrace any and all changes as being good. 4. Reject any and all changes as being bad. 1 and 3 are often paired together along with 2 and 4. And the group from #1 will often bend over backwards to try to guess what staff want the answer to be and then provide them with that answer. And it makes sure staff can say "Whelp. Guess there's support for this. We're now implementing it." The number of people who actually apply any sort of reasoning to ideas are few and far between and they get drowned out by the sycophants and the haters. Staff love to hand pick which parts of the playerbase they listen to in order to justify what they want to do. And it's all complete bullshit.
That's a fair point, and I think we would have seen more honest feedback on the GDB if players didn't feel like constructive criticism would make them persona non grata. Which is a feeling that resulted from some staff members treating players that way when they did give feedback. It's hard because giving and taking constructive criticism is not a skill everyone has, and it's a hard skill to master as well. I fail at it often. |
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Jan 16, 2020 7:01:27 GMT -5
It's hard because giving and taking constructive criticism is not a skill everyone has, and it's a hard skill to master as well. I fail at it often. im glad unlike some other staff u dont seem to have been nogained on that skill |
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Post by jcarter on Jan 16, 2020 10:08:06 GMT -5
re: only liking nergal because he's posting here now.
a common criticism is that posters here never let go over being angry for events 5-10+ years ago and will be mad no matter what. yet when nergal comes over we get criticized for not still hating him when he hasn't been around for 4 years. why are we expected to hate the guy for incidences years ago when he's willingly came out, accepted responsibility, and apologized for his actions?
there's nothing contradictory with players going on in this thread. people naturally get frustrated with staff when they speak up about problems and essentially get told that it's their fault. people get accused of lying and fabricating the stories, or twisting the narrative. the only staff response is telling players to get over it and/or denying it happened. most of the time, people are willing to make amends but that requires efforts on both parts. i don't think it's unfair to say that staff aren't particularly forward nor interested in making that move.
even now, people are being told not to believe what's written on these boards because it's written by disgruntled players and staff. i'm not going to try to convince everyone that 100% of the posts on here are accurate reflections or entirely truthful, because i certainly don't believe that. but let's be realistic here, if even 10% of the things written are true then that's damning in and of itself. one person's story is easy to dismiss, but where there's smoke, there's fire. when a dozen different people come out with the same experiences and allegations over numerous years, then there's probably something to that. but even if you still think it's false, let's be pragmatic here and ask the question of wtf has someone done to piss off so many people over so many years to cause them to just make up imaginary tales disparaging them?
the argument that it's only a few bad apples and storytellers circle over the years doesn't hold water. just because the cashiers at mcdonald's are cycled through doesn't mean management's policies are going to change. these issues aren't storyteller level, it's higher. and it's not one person, it's multiple. the tracking pixel, for example, involved at least three people who were/are producers and administrators.
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nergal
staff puppet account
Noted Liar
Posts: 46
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Post by nergal on Jan 16, 2020 12:32:18 GMT -5
I've been incredibly humbled by the civility with which the vast majority of posters here have interacted with me here. Discussion on PMs and in Discord has been healthy too. But I'm not surprised by any of it. It's representative of the human capacity to listen to someone who acknowledges mistakes and is repentant for them. I don't think I would have gotten this treatment in the official forum because my staff and player persona had already known the touch of the wheels of the bus it got thrown under immediately after I left staff. I read the commentary of several staff members and prominent players on the official Discord that I started the days after I left, and when I discussed the possibility of apologizing on the GDB with old friends, they showed me examples of why I shouldn't. The fact that I thought a board that filtered my name to have Noted Liar in front of it would be more receptive to an apology post than the GDB probably speaks a lot to what I think is responsible for a lot of I went through - besides myself, of course.
That's not to say that Armageddon players don't deserve an apology from me - everyone who was involved in the game while I was there deserves one to some extent - but I wanted people to actually be able to read it unedited. Otherwise it doesn't get to the people it needs to get to.
I think a big part of the conflict between players and staff is the unwillingness of many staff members to show their own emotional weaknesses. The unhealthy extent to which they rely on Armageddon for escapist purposes and the desire to feel powerful in a world where almost everyone is weak in comparison to the strongest is very real It's okay to own up to bad things that you did, and if staff really want to close the divide between themselves and the players then maybe a thread like this will serve as an example of how an apology can turn out and start to help mend things up.
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najdorf
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 265 
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Post by najdorf on Jan 16, 2020 12:35:52 GMT -5
I believe Qwerty is asking about the super-statted mul npc that got dropped on our heads that one-shot two-thirds of the gang in seconds. If I recall correctly, some elves did some weird stuff in the Folley, the mul guard there was animated and went after the elves, the mul flew into a rage during combat which subsequently boosted its stats, and started smashing people much faster than intended. If that's right then Ath and I were a part of that animation and I believe I was apologetic at the time, but if not, I'll apologize now. (Had to ask Cayuga if she remembered the details.) If we remember all of that right that was clearly pretty heavy-handed and wrong. Hey, Nergal, it is great to hear from you. I would like to share my experience on this matter since my elf Temir / Sandals was on the spotlight. I believe I shouldn't have killed that Guilder in Hathor's. Up until that time, my characters were heavy PK'ers, including that event where I bashed and insta killed the green-wearing Guilder. After that event, (not because of the loss of my elf), I turned 180 degree towards becoming a non-PK player. However, I am curious if your decision to animate the mul and kill my PC was a result of my immediate character report in which I stupidly shared the scripts I used? Because the timing of the mul's apperance is right after I filed the PK report and received this from you: Request Resolved:
Najdorf,
1. The request tool is not for arguing about combat mechanics.
2. You have "autobash" in your log. Botting/using macros to help you in combat is forbidden by the rules. I've reduced your karma to 1 for longevity. We would like you see you roleplay your character without resorting to min/maxing and scripts.
Your Character Report request has been resolved.
Nergal
Producer
Armageddon Staf" |
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najdorf
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 265
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Post by najdorf on Jan 16, 2020 12:39:17 GMT -5
Nergal, one more, one more.
And, I have always been accused (if not praised) of becoming a great powerplayer. In your experience and based on the characters you observed, did you and other staff really consider me to be the most powerplayer twink that should be driven away from the game or ignored?
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Post by sirra on Jan 16, 2020 12:45:17 GMT -5
It's tempting, but I don't think we should use this thread, to ask Nergal about highly specific, personal incidents from his tenure, unless they had a broader impact or relevance to the community. Maybe send him a PM if you must.
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nergal
staff puppet account
Noted Liar
Posts: 46
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Post by nergal on Jan 16, 2020 12:52:19 GMT -5
najdorf, I don't think that was a motivation at all because I had the power to store characters. I could have simply force-stored your character for using scripts to gain an advantage for your character but I guess I thought that would be a few steps too far. Everything else was probably incidental. I also didn't know you had a reputation for twinkery although I guess the name "abuzer" should've given it away, and I don't remember your account name well enough to comment further, though if I did I'd probably do it via PM.
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najdorf
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 265
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Post by najdorf on Jan 16, 2020 12:54:00 GMT -5
I am posting here, because it is a great opportunity for players to resonate to what staff actually thinks about them, players who have powered/twinked their characters and had the feeling that they are hated because of it, and their entire efforts of actual RP (aside from their powerplaying) is ignored.
Because the amount of negative notes I received is significantly higher than positive feedback. I have spent 10x more time giving to the world, roleplaying and creating positive RP environments for others as well, but looking at my staff notes, it is mostly the bad. As if the staff has a fixated opinion and once you powerplay, all your good efforts are ignored as a punishment too.
Is that really the case?
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Jan 16, 2020 12:55:43 GMT -5
I think what Abuzer is really asking is can Nergal explain to us how account notes work. How are they added, are they discussed, are they well documented, what doesn't get shown to players, what does?
EDIT - Also how often are they looked at by staff? Do storytellers look at them a lot do producers are they just post-it notes?
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