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Post by sirra on Dec 31, 2019 13:02:00 GMT -5
I would argue that, on an individual level, most of the staff members are not inherently bad people. What is actually bad, that we've actually seen in this thread? They are just incapable, which is worse. They are bad at management. If these guys were given a proper company, they would bankrupt it in months. You can't expect such retards to maintain any game, be it a MUD or something else. That's the way it is, a loser is a loser. Previous staff was (10+ years ago) perhaps slightly better at it. There's a difference between a 'bad staffer', a 'bad person' and 'bad at being a person'. Just to use a few examples. Halaster: Bad staffer (Average on Arm bell curve), kind've a silly dick, but knew that the point of a MUD was to be entertained, and that he had to be entertaining so people would play with him. Sanvean: Okay staffer (Good on Arm bell curve). She had a few hilarious quirks given her personal favoritisms, but I think most of us long for the days when the worst scandal on the MUSH was Sanvean doting on Gypsy f-me's and Tuluki bards. She was fundamentally a good person, and a good writer. She brought more to Arm than she took away. Understood narrative tropes and what made a story intriguing. Her biggest failure was that her own creativity out-grew the constraints of the Dark Sun universe, and rather than go off and do her own thing, she helped push the game over the precipice of Arm 2.0. Nyr: Probably the most dedicated staffer Armageddon has ever had, in terms of someone that took it way too seriously. He understood the game's mechanics and core gameplay loop. But he didn't have any practical or realistic understanding of what managing other people, or building an organization really entailed, beyond a sort've shallow knee-jerk bureaucratic reflex. He became a staffer because he LOVED the game. He loved it SO much, he wanted to control it. He made many bad decisions (such as Arm 2.0, countless others). He was a bad person in the sense that he introduced a level of toxicity and distrust to the game that split the community like nothing I've seen before. He was better at being a person, since he eventually buggered off (after he had broken what he loved and lost interest in it). He groomed a whole generation of staffers (such as Nergal), to basically imitate his worst habits. Absolutely zero interest in the entertainment or satisfaction of others, beyond some kind've weird marketing metric in his head. Adhira: Okay staffer, in the purely bureaucratic context of hamster on a treadmill request processing. No meaningful creative vision. No meaningful understanding of narrative tropes. No real understanding of even the game's own mechanics. Probably a good, albeit sad person. Basically a cat lady, whose main connection to Armageddon is a place where she can receive a pick me up from the other staff while complaining about her life. No interest in anyone else's entertainment, as she's too concerned with her own problems. Nessalin: Neckbeard Coder. So whether he's a bad or good staffer doesn't matter, apparently. Objectively a bad person, owing to having never seen a single redeeming or human moment from him, that didn't involve the other person being either A) A girl he was weirdly attracted to or B) Someone that had massaged his ego, either at one of the stupid Arm Con events, or just by joining staff. His every other interaction has only shown he is an arrogant asshole, who isn't half as intelligent as he thinks he is. Has no social skills outside his immediate comfort zone of the strangehold he has exerted on Armageddon staff culture for years. There are many asshole coders in the world, but Nessalin is primarily distinguished by his longevity in poisoning a single, small community and the impossibility of ever escaping him. Armageddon is essentially his personal ant farm, and the sooner one realizes that and bails, the better. There's nothing in this world that is so amusing, as to be worth being under even the token authority of this fat jerkoff. I doubt he can even fathom placing someone else's interest or entertainment above his own, unless it directly benefits him.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Dec 31, 2019 13:04:52 GMT -5
This is a good idea in theory, as a neutral body of moderators who act as tactful, patient, and reasonable as possible. Getting decent administrators in the first place would make this not an issue. All the mechanism of "neutral advocates" does is creates a wall of obscurity that somewhat dulls the smell of shit in the other room. It's still going to be shit in the other room: installing a wall doesn't fix that. I should add that having mediators should not be considered the end of reforming the staff body, that the staff themselves need to be able to acknowledge that their behavior is collectively bad and they actually need to want to improve. At present nothing can really change since staff have shown not only complete inflexibility, but a willingness to obscure their own failings and muddy the waters of critical discussion via either banning people from official discussion places or trolling/lying on places they can't control.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Dec 31, 2019 13:11:30 GMT -5
Make the change happen that you want to see. Allanak is supreme over Zalanthas it's true but it doesn't have to be that way. Even in the real world where law and authority are monolithic criminal organizations still operate with varying degrees of success. When a Templar tells a PC to do something they cooperate out of fear and because there are little to no consequences for PCs to cooperate with Templars. What if there were consequences? What if PCs had something to fear if they do cooperate with Templars and instead are forced into a dilemma rather than straight forward compliance? Essentially if more PCs killed PCs that cooperate with with Templars it would open up a lot of possibilites than the standard whole world goes and hunts whoever has been designated to die next by Allanak and rinse and repeat Overall the game is the same as it was, I can't tell much of a difference lore-wise. There have been some things happen here and there like Borsail compound being fucked over by a black robe but that didn't stop Borsail from just coming back for some reason? All the clans are the same, no clans ever get wiped out (red fang being the one exception). They just get closed down because there is no support from staff for it. PS: This isn't a negative thing either. I like that the game hasn't changed much, makes it easy to jump right back in. I'm just saying that players cannot and have never really changed much in the game. Adding a clan is great but ultimately meaningless when said clan (crimson wind) is empty and has no players. I often repeat the fact here that Melanogaster's mortal alt led the Crimson Wind and established it as a "player created clan". He was actually the first staff member to be allowed to keep his mortal PC that he had prior to joining staff, specifically because it would allow the player-created clan system to finally appear to succeed after years of failure. So "players have never really changed much" is more true than most people think. Whatever appears to change is either staff-led or a bit of trickery by a staff alt/heavily favored character.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Dec 31, 2019 13:19:34 GMT -5
I would argue that, on an individual level, most of the staff members are not inherently bad people. What is actually bad, that we've actually seen in this thread? They are just incapable, which is worse. They are bad at management. If these guys were given a proper company, they would bankrupt it in months. You can't expect such retards to maintain any game, be it a MUD or something else. That's the way it is, a loser is a loser. Previous staff was (10+ years ago) perhaps slightly better at it. The problem with painting with a broad brush, especially in Armageddon's case, is that the staff still have the mentality that they need ~15 people to run the game and the game's already suffered plenty of brain drain. The people who would be most capable of being staff have either been forced out of the staff team, forced out of the game, blacklisted from ever being staff, or simply want to remain normal players. Games of a similar size can be run by three or four dedicated and skilled people, and chances are pretty good that the staff body probably has at least a couple of people like this. And if the game was run capably then they wouldn't make a mistake like the one Shabago made with Nile, or if they did, they would own up to it and apologize, since that's how normal people behave towards other normal people.
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Post by gringoose on Dec 31, 2019 13:45:27 GMT -5
Make the change happen that you want to see. Allanak is supreme over Zalanthas it's true but it doesn't have to be that way. Even in the real world where law and authority are monolithic criminal organizations still operate with varying degrees of success. When a Templar tells a PC to do something they cooperate out of fear and because there are little to no consequences for PCs to cooperate with Templars. What if there were consequences? What if PCs had something to fear if they do cooperate with Templars and instead are forced into a dilemma rather than straight forward compliance? Essentially if more PCs killed PCs that cooperate with with Templars it would open up a lot of possibilites than the standard whole world goes and hunts whoever has been designated to die next by Allanak and rinse and repeat Are you seriously parroting the "be the change" bullshit here? That is a complete fabrication. Nothing has changed on Arm in the two decades I've played despite the many pursuits of multiple players playing at the highest levels of power/karma. Here are a few things that existed back in 2000 that haven't changed since. -The rinth is the same. Except there are no more vampire plots from bhagharva and they united the elven tribes then closed the clan to players. -allanak. byn. noble houses. Still the same allanak it was. What has changed in the city? -D-elves. The big change that did happen was you can't play a tribeless d-elf. Which I would argue is worse for the game. Now d-elves are recluse PCs, or even worse they are basically being roleplayed as human tribals that are cool with allanak, luirs and every other faction in the game. They're supposed to be the ultimate wanderers, deadly wastelanders but they aren't anymore. They have been castrated down to social PCs that trade and have no interest in being territorial anymore. -Tuluk was closed. One of the biggest "changes" that happened but I wouldn't call it a change as it had no effect on the overall game. It was just closed to play. -Kurac lost Luirs and it was given to the GMHs. I will admit this was pretty big change, still not sure how I feel about the garrison as a clan. -Red Storm is exactly the same. -Gith are still the only plot hook they use as apparently they can't possibly be wiped out by the combined forces of d-elf tribes, city-states with all powerful templars, etc. -Areas are relatively the same. Silt sea had some additions and stuff but the excel map from 20 years ago holds up quite well to this day. There were some minor changes here and there but little realistic change such as wind erosion, rock avalanches or any natural disaster that would likely have happened in the past 200ish IC years we've been playing the game. Overall the game is the same as it was, I can't tell much of a difference lore-wise. There have been some things happen here and there like Borsail compound being fucked over by a black robe but that didn't stop Borsail from just coming back for some reason? All the clans are the same, no clans ever get wiped out (red fang being the one exception). They just get closed down because there is no support from staff for it. PS: This isn't a negative thing either. I like that the game hasn't changed much, makes it easy to jump right back in. I'm just saying that players cannot and have never really changed much in the game. Adding a clan is great but ultimately meaningless when said clan (crimson wind) is empty and has no players. I'm suggesting a mentality change not a monumental task of changing the face of the game forever. For example if you're a Sun Runner and another PC in your clan is a Templars lap dog you should kill that PC or if you play a Rinthi or whatever. Once players become aware of PCs that cooperate with Templars don't live long then that thing happens less.
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Dec 31, 2019 13:46:44 GMT -5
Change of mentality and be the change clearly hasn't worked. It's been a tagline on the GDB for a while and I think many of the people who sincerely go through with it end up on these boards disaffected.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Dec 31, 2019 14:22:59 GMT -5
Change of mentality and be the change clearly hasn't worked. It's been a tagline on the GDB for a while and I think many of the people who sincerely go through with it end up on these boards disaffected. The official community's really good at pulling the wool over your eyes when you're a newbie. You don't really see that "be the change" is bullshit until you hit your first leadership role, and you work with staff to get some kind of project done that they said you can work on, only to be told at the end that you can't do it anymore. "Be the change" just exists to keep people in an endless loop of busy work, while the 20 or so characters that can actually do stuff because their players are on staff or deeply connected to staff loot whatever plot attention the staff can spare to the game. It's kind of embarrassing that I used to believe in "be the change" in the same way that it's embarrassing for someone to admit that they got scammed. You work hard to get stuff done until staff decide to discard you for some random bullshit, like reading a Reddit post and believing a screenshot in it.
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Post by sirra on Dec 31, 2019 14:52:24 GMT -5
Change of mentality and be the change clearly hasn't worked. It's been a tagline on the GDB for a while and I think many of the people who sincerely go through with it end up on these boards disaffected.That's why most of us are here. But not just that we bought into it, then got fucked over. It's that we realized how good the game could have been, if it hadn't been for the apathy, mendacity and hypocrisy of those who styled themselves its gatekeepers.
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ShaLeah
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Post by ShaLeah on Dec 31, 2019 14:58:16 GMT -5
I often repeat the fact here that Melanogaster's mortal alt led the Crimson Wind and established it as a "player created clan". He was actually the first staff member to be allowed to keep his mortal PC that he had prior to joining staff, specifically because it would allow the player-created clan system to finally appear to succeed after years of failure. So "players have never really changed much" is more true than most people think. Whatever appears to change is either staff-led or a bit of trickery by a staffmi alt/heavily favored character. Agreed. The Crimson Wind is a fucking stupid clan. Bout as stupid as 'The Oashi' who got promoted and became an NPC & staff then proceeded to animate it to rule or avenge the murder of his former lover/aide or cockblock the new oashi nobles or whatever the rumor was. The only way to get anything done is as staff or with staff approval.
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vex
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Post by vex on Dec 31, 2019 17:02:12 GMT -5
Make the change happen that you want to see. Allanak is supreme over Zalanthas it's true but it doesn't have to be that way. Even in the real world where law and authority are monolithic criminal organizations still operate with varying degrees of success. When a Templar tells a PC to do something they cooperate out of fear and because there are little to no consequences for PCs to cooperate with Templars. What if there were consequences? What if PCs had something to fear if they do cooperate with Templars and instead are forced into a dilemma rather than straight forward compliance? Essentially if more PCs killed PCs that cooperate with with Templars it would open up a lot of possibilites than the standard whole world goes and hunts whoever has been designated to die next by Allanak and rinse and repeat You must be new to the game, welcome.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Dec 31, 2019 17:14:02 GMT -5
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vex
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Post by vex on Dec 31, 2019 17:48:22 GMT -5
The GDB would be just as active, without such 'selective' moderation practices.
You cannot bully some people to one standard, and let others run wild, and expect natural or healthy discussion. Better, I think, to let everyone run wild. At least it'll be honest. Ugly, but honest, yes.
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nile
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Post by nile on Dec 31, 2019 20:09:22 GMT -5
Make the change happen that you want to see. Allanak is supreme over Zalanthas it's true but it doesn't have to be that way. Even in the real world where law and authority are monolithic criminal organizations still operate with varying degrees of success. When a Templar tells a PC to do something they cooperate out of fear and because there are little to no consequences for PCs to cooperate with Templars. What if there were consequences? What if PCs had something to fear if they do cooperate with Templars and instead are forced into a dilemma rather than straight forward compliance? Essentially if more PCs killed PCs that cooperate with with Templars it would open up a lot of possibilites than the standard whole world goes and hunts whoever has been designated to die next by Allanak and rinse and repeat All the clans are the same, no clans ever get wiped out (red fang being the one exception). They just get closed down because there is no support from staff for it. Red Fang aren't actually extinct. We took precautions and sent off a small group to preserve the tribe.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Dec 31, 2019 20:41:13 GMT -5
All the clans are the same, no clans ever get wiped out (red fang being the one exception). They just get closed down because there is no support from staff for it. Red Fang aren't actually extinct. We took precautions and sent off a small group to preserve the tribe. That's great and all but there hasn't been a single RF PC in 10 years or whatever it was. I was there when it died. I was playing the elderly red fang d-elf which was difficult because RF value strength, young and vitality. I was a merchant and custom crafted an arrow for the tribe before the end came a week or so later via sun runners pillar of flame.
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Post by sirra on Dec 31, 2019 22:00:43 GMT -5
The GDB would be just as active, without such 'selective' moderation practices. You cannot bully some people to one standard, and let others run wild, and expect natural or healthy discussion. Better, I think, to let everyone run wild. At least it'll be honest. Ugly, but honest, yes. At this point, uglier the better. The most ironic thing about Armageddon and the GDB, is that throwing open the floodgates to anything besides direct cheating (So and so has magic ringz! Go kill him!) would immeasurably improve the game's culture. In fact, I have a pet theory that this forum has done more to sustain interest in Armageddon, in its own perverse way, than the GDB has. At least for the first few years. It even tugged me for one final tilt at the windmills when I first discovered it. Nowadays, I just feel pity for anyone who's still playing.
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