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Post by pinkerdlu on Dec 19, 2019 20:25:37 GMT -5
Ok. Now that was epic.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 22:31:34 GMT -5
Okay, that one didn't even make sense, I obviously cared about the meme fight. I started it. I declare myself the winner. I think it was ment to be directed at me. Like the Batman one.
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,699
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Post by mehtastic on Dec 20, 2019 6:36:39 GMT -5
MUDs in general are bad at retaining players. Most MUDs that have existed are dead. Here's a neat site. mudstats.com/Only about 100 MUDs average more than 10 players online in a month. Only about 200 average more than 5 online in a month. About 250 average more than 2 online in a month and any less than that is completely dead either empty or the owner idling. This isn't counting MUDs that have gone offline. The most active MUDs are erotic adult roleplay MUDs, they single handedly use up about 1/4 of the total active MUD playerbase. "Most MUDs that have existed are dead" is a true statement, but there's quite a bit more nuance to the situation than that. Many MUDs are or were unedited stock clones of some code base. There are more MUDs than one would think that didn't even change the name of their starting city from Midgaard to something else, for example. Many MUDs start up and don't even get players. They die on arrival due to lack of exposure or because they were just made for a few friends, but somehow ended up on a MUD listing. Many MUDs start up and are riding high until staff start to pull back from it out of lack of interest. Then the players leave because there's nothing new left and no staff oversight. A few MUDs are actually increasing in players. Sindome, for example, grew massively over the past 10 years. Although Arx isn't on Mudstats, it's been growing too. These are games quite similar to Armageddon in roleplaying scope, yet they're growing and Armageddon is shrinking. Armageddon falls into a weird niche in the world of declining MUDs. Its decline can't quite be explained by any one factor, such as a general lack of interest in MUDs. That matters, for sure. Armageddon is quite exclusionary to the point that players defend its poor design and newbie-unfriendliness because "you either survive it or you don't". That matters too, when discussing Armageddon's position. Armageddon effectively has more people working on it than the vast majority of MUDs, in terms of staff, player helpers, builders, and players volunteering for leadership roles or publicity positions, that one must wonder where all that work is going when the game is shrinking by an average of 12 players a year for the past 5 years.
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,699
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Post by mehtastic on Dec 20, 2019 6:55:30 GMT -5
RPIs have never been good about that though.. you either survive it or you don't. Real talk.. I don't give a fuck if that dude ever comes back to play because he is posting a thread about leaving and acting like a colossal twat either way so fuck him. If he had any grit or will he would bite down and make another PC and get back at it which is what it takes to play a game like Arm. You're a badass. The Struggler. GOTTA BE HARDCORE TO PLAY THIS TEXT GAME (I feel like you've regressed in intellect with age.) Looking at the GDB thread, Delerak's attitude is basically the consensus that active, vocal players have created. As usual, they don't see how the game and its community are generally toxic towards newbies, because they benefit from the toxicity somehow. They deflect and they say that the newbie and anyone who defends him is actually toxic. They claim "harsh world" as a defense to the game's various design, policy, structural, and even occasionally bureaucratic flaws that leads to random senseless PK on a permadeath MUD being acceptable as long as you target a newbie's character. With this attitude, Armageddon will remain the only permadeath RP game where it's okay to be a griefer without any IC motivation. It almost feels like the playerbase has unconsciously given up hope on growing their game. Newbies are a temporary resource to be exploited by default. If they happen to stick around then they can continue to be exploited. The only problem is that more people are leaving the game than there are people entering and staying in the game.
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Post by lechuck on Dec 20, 2019 12:59:55 GMT -5
It's not a big surprise that people who decide to give the game an eighteenth chance do so by fully embracing its principles. It's the only way you can justify it: pretend that bygones are bygones and things may be better now. We've seen ample examples of staff's attitude of "you're either with us or against us," so if you find yourself in a time of your life when you want to see if Arm has turned a new leaf, you kind of have to follow suit. They make you do that. I wouldn't be surprised if someone gave Delerak the trademark derpboards speech. He probably promised that such vices are behind him and he's a new man. Personally, I never felt he had much to offer beyond ancient grudges against Sanvean and Bhagharva, so I'm not surprised if he took his vow of penance. He's a bit of a legend because he was one of the original rebels, but not because he had any credibility. Has he ever had anything insightful to say? He's a fair-weather fan, following the latest bandwagon. Right now he's on one side, next year he's on the other.
If you want to see if Armageddon has improved since your last stint, you should do that. By all means. Maybe it has. Anytime I commentate on the game, I have to temper my own opinions against the fact that I haven't actually played for the better part of a year. Sometimes I make a new character and sometimes I do so during a good month when something's going on. What invariably happens, unfortunately, is that I find that this was an exception to the rule. By and large, things have not improved to the point where I can respect the game. If you can live with that, more power to you. But what you cannot do, what you don't have the right to do, is become dishonest about things for self-serving reasons. If you find yourself lying about reality in order to justify your efforts to give the game another shot, you've become what you were once against.
This is what has happened to people like Delerak and Kronibas, and a few others who used to contribute to the running commentary of ArmageddonMUD but gave it up because, for all its faults, it remains the only really active RPI, and eating a bad meal in silence is easier than remarking on the quality of the food and subsequently finding your plate empty. If you can stomach the menu, have at it. This community is belligerent and unreasonable at times, and if any RP is better for you than none, you shouldn't listen. What deserves no respect is when someone ignores recent issues because it buys them goodwill with the staff. This is how recent issues become permanent issues. This is how Armageddon remains, year after year, a game where fuck-all happens and too few people speak up against the problems plaguing the game. I would love for it to once more become a game I could play with self-respect, but I'm not going to ignore what's wrong in order to convince myself it has become such a thing. Some will, some won't.
Noone's here because they've lost interest in Armageddon. Everyone's here for one of three reasons: you want to find out some code secrets, you want to debate what's wrong or right with the game, or you want to whitewash the game. The majority of visitors belongs to the first category, but you never hear from them--this is why any new post has 5-10 "currently viewing" but few replies. The latter category consists of shills like Qwerty. The middle portion is what sustains this community, and it's sad to see people move from there to #1 or #3 without any of the changes that would warrant such a shift of opinion. I guess sometimes the addiction kicks in and you'd rather eat shit while smiling.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Dec 20, 2019 13:35:35 GMT -5
No one has given me any speech. I'm here because the GDB is over moderated and censored so I don't feel free to post there. I was never a rebel against the game, I just like to speak my mind and thoughts and not be moderated. I don't really have time to contribute to any commentary these days. My videos from a few years back speak for themselves and I'm still critical of the game because it is an RPI and one of the last remaining ones. Back when I was banned in 2007-2008 or whenever it was by Sanvean it was for a Wizards of the Coast post I made, one thing Arm staff hate and still hate to this day is going outside of their area of moderation/control to talk about the game or anything like that. That is why for a few years there bans were coming down for people posting here. It's still a widely held belief I am sure they just realized you can't wholesale ban that many players and survive.
A lot of the best players have left that is one thing I've noticed since I came back in June. I hadn't played since 2014-15 and that was with Red Rangers templar so going from that to where I'm at right now trying to just find some PCs that are interesting seems improbable, you can't compare one of the best players to the average base they have right now. But I'm not going to just walk away from the game because I can't find interaction with players that I want to play with. I'll keep doing my thing and if I can bring some cool RP/scenes to some people then that becomes fun for me.
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Post by shakes on Dec 20, 2019 14:14:45 GMT -5
There's also not just one game within Armageddon. There's MANY games in there.
You can play the social game, or the hack and slash game, the city game, the wilderness survival game ... there's a lot of games in there.
I did poorly in the social game because it requires a lot of staff interaction ... and that didn't go well for me. But it goes well for other people. I do okay at the criminal game and I'm good at the wilderness survival game. If I play that then Armageddon is fun for me.
The problem with being a newbie is that you can't see the multiple games within Armageddon. I bounced off the game 3-4 times when I first tried it before something finally stuck. There was a character named Aenvir who sort of took me under his wing and let me see a little bit of the wilderness world and I got hooked.
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Post by lechuck on Dec 20, 2019 15:16:51 GMT -5
There's also the issue that when it comes down to it, there's really only one game: the one that staff gives a shit about.
You can play Skyrim against scrabs all you want, but it doesn't lead anywhere. You can grind off the 'rinth muggers for a month, but it doesn't lead anywhere. At the end of the day, your efforts are essentially wasted if you're not involved with anything for which there's some support. Otherwise you're just playing PK-tag until the cows come home.
I think I've PKed you once or twice. Right? Maybe I've identified you wrong, but once you were that key-stealing youngster who tried to hide in the elven tenements and next time you were the latest Dust Runner who couldn't decide on any sort of allegiance. I was ordered to murder you both times. Neither time there was anything more to it than "this weirdo is fucking around and you're the guy with max sap." There was never more behind it that that. Meanwhile, one could play a noble and get all sorts of tie-ins to shit that doesn't touch the rest of the playerbase. This is where the disconnect within the game occurs. You're part of a certain crowd or your presence in the game is irrelevant.
The social game exists in a world of its own. You don't have to opt into it, it's just there. The survival game is the same; you play text-based Skyrim until you've had your fill of it. But what it all comes down to is waiting for that Big Thing that Actually Matters, and you hope to have a fully developed character when it happens. Except it happens so seldom that most of your characters are just wasted waiting for it. Instead of a constant story that you can jump into, Armageddon is a game of waiting for something that could happen but never really does. And the thing that sucks about it is that it could be happening all the time except noone's pulling the trigger.
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ShaLeah
Clueless newb
Sooth Saying & Seeking Clueless Vet
Posts: 65
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Post by ShaLeah on Dec 20, 2019 15:18:14 GMT -5
There's also not just one game within Armageddon. There's MANY games in there. You can play the social game, or the hack and slash game, the city game, the wilderness survival game ... there's a lot of games in there. I did poorly in the social game because it requires a lot of staff interaction ... and that didn't go well for me. But it goes well for other people. I do okay at the criminal game and I'm good at the wilderness survival game. If I play that then Armageddon is fun for me. The problem with being a newbie is that you can't see the multiple games within Armageddon. I bounced off the game 3-4 times when I first tried it before something finally stuck. There was a character named Aenvir who sort of took me under his wing and let me see a little bit of the wilderness world and I got hooked. The only game I played was the social/political one. I wanted to play the code aka hack and slash, I just can't be one of those, it's boring. Plus coming from hack and slash n,n,n,n,n,w,d,get all corpse, sacrifice corpse, wear all land I loathe thinking about every detail of every action to describe it to watchers. That's not a game I wanna play anymore. I wanted to play the wilderness but you have to be good at the code to survive the wilderness. You don't need staff interaction for shit if you don't want it. Look at that absurdly long lived twink who died recently.
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ShaLeah
Clueless newb
Sooth Saying & Seeking Clueless Vet
Posts: 65
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Post by ShaLeah on Dec 20, 2019 15:21:25 GMT -5
There's also the issue that when it comes down to it, there's really only one game: the one that staff gives a shit about. Only if you NEED karma. At that point you're signing YOURSELF up for scrutiny willingly, putting yourselves at the mercy of how they feel about YOU the player first and how your enjoyable your characters are second.
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Post by lechuck on Dec 20, 2019 15:24:21 GMT -5
It's not just about karma, ShaLeah. Karma is one aspect of it, but even if you disregard that, your presence in the game is essentially meaningless if you're not involved with the one thing that staff cares about this quarter of the year. Outside of that bubble, nothing is relevant at all. It's just a bunch of meaningless bullshit because nobody supports it.
Now, if the game had some semblance of actual story...
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Post by shakes on Dec 20, 2019 15:32:42 GMT -5
I disagree with neither of you. You're both right (except I was neither the Dust Runner or the key-stealing thief) but it's also not an encompassing experience.
I play a character for usually a RL month or so, get bored with the concept and I'm ready to move on. It might be different if I was in a cool sponsored role, but they don't give me those. I always either get turned down politely (we had a lot to pick from but thanks anyway) or rudely (your past history means we hate you).
That's my Armageddon. That's the game I play if I remotely feel like playing a mud. I understand it would bore some people and I understand other people don't like the aspects of it.
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Post by jcarter on Dec 20, 2019 17:01:18 GMT -5
There's also not just one game within Armageddon. There's MANY games in there. and tbh arm doesn't do any of them particularly well. any of the 'subgames' that people play can be found elsewhere and done better. social game? go play a mush that actually cares about it. hack and slash? diablo, PoE, or any MMORPG. tons of games with more interesting systems. survival? there's ark, conan exiles, rust, the forest, etc and many of those feature roleplaying servers.
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muddy
Clueless newb
Posts: 61
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Post by muddy on Dec 20, 2019 19:21:47 GMT -5
Why is Armageddon bad at retaining players. This thread was started by a GDB post from a new-player, the answer isn't staff it's the player base. I believe it was XD who spoon fed me as a noob, A character named Drov who had ridden with the Rough-Hides I believe. I think I died twice not knowing the basics of anything, but there were players willing to spend their time and RP, emote actions and interact positively. I remember a Lord-Templar with Yellow eyes explaining how I fucked up being put in prison, I believe it was shortly before the Whole spider infestation and before those two Dwarves were AoD Sarge and Corporal. (both maxed Warriors) I had Arm soldiers help me, Byn help me to not make basic mistakes. It was a Great playerbase despite the animosity for the Staff. Those who still play have to not just play for themselves but for the community. The person who posted that on the GDB or any of the next could be one of the best RP'ers, one day and learning their way. They come all the time, no reason to kill them because they "break your immersion" they don't know what they're doing. If the game is to live it is the Players, not the Staff. Staff is what hinders long time players, grudges people growing with IRL issues who feel it's just not worth their time anymore, not the Guy/Gal who finds the Mud on a listing and tries it out.
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Post by pinkerdlu on Dec 20, 2019 23:08:49 GMT -5
There's also not just one game within Armageddon. There's MANY games in there. and tbh arm doesn't do any of them particularly well. any of the 'subgames' that people play can be found elsewhere and done better. social game? go play a mush that actually cares about it. hack and slash? diablo, PoE, or any MMORPG. tons of games with more interesting systems. survival? there's ark, conan exiles, rust, the forest, etc and many of those feature roleplaying servers. It's the combination of them that makes it so enticing. That applies to RPIs in general, I think. Required roleplay, permadeath, skilling/a grind, some exploration and survival. No other medium/system brings those elements together like I've found in RPIs (Atonement, SoI, Armageddon). It's a shame the genre is dying... And it's a real shame that there's nothing better to replace it when it comes to what I just mentioned.
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