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Post by shakes on Aug 16, 2019 15:55:50 GMT -5
I submitted a karma review. I have been denied for the past two years . I'm listing the reasoning they put in as why I was denied yet again. Here's the excerpt from their reply. My reasoning for posting isn't really to get back at anyone. I just feel a desire to have my say that was completely ignored by the staff complaint system. As I've already quit the game, there's not any way they can further restrict or punish me. I doubt I'll feel the desire to play again and if I do I'll just create a new account and VPN it. The loss of that 1 karma point I had to play "Touched" is hardly motivational. --- At present, you have 1x RP and 1x longevity on your account. Your ability to RP, when engaging others in daily exchanges certainly isn't in question. You often can and do throw out terrific emotes, and you've been around the game plenty long enough to have earned the longevity point. That, however, is where we feel you need to remain. 1 karma. While you could potentially qualify for more karma points on the criteria scale, I'll refer you to the initial words when looking at "Karma" on the website: armageddon.org/help/view/KarmaTo be frank, regarding the first paragraph that states "Karma is simply a measure of trust that the staff members have in a given player." We do not believe you have conducted yourself in a way that would warrant further trust at this stage. Further, as stated in the bullet points that follow, a further aspect of gaining karma is "Enriching the world for your fellow players." Again, we feel you haven't done so. As a snap shot to explain the above, some of our reasoning is thus: * Attacking link-dead players - Costing us new players, rather then 'enriching the game world for them'. * Countless PKs with paper-thin reasoning. While PKing is fine and encouraged, providing a story there-in for your fellow players is desired. Countless other means are at your disposal to allow the story to continue, be dramatic, or build conflict that doesn't involve insta-death. Most recently, we witnessed you doing this by way of maiming over murder. A beautiful step in the right direction. * OOCly sharing/spreading/using stories, plots, spoilers, mechanics, hidden locations and so on. * Combativeness and assumptions against staff members and fellow players. Despite the above points, we're not about to dock your karma point and we feel that you would be able to 'turn a corner' and proceed up the karma scale. You've recently shown you're willing to allow a story to proceed past the insta-pk approach and that speaks well of you - continuing to do so will strike down two of the above concerns. Refraining from the OOC aspects will strike down the next two. Despite the above points, we're not about to dock your karma point and we feel that you would be able to 'turn a corner' and proceed up the karma scale. You've recently shown you're willing to allow a story to proceed past the insta-pk approach and that speaks well of you - continuing to do so will strike down two of the above concerns. Refraining from the OOC aspects will strike down the next two. If you are willing and able to do such, at the time of your next review period, it is entirely likely you would then qualify for at least 2 more points on the criteria table and thus, find yourself firmly into the 2k karma bracket. Please earnestly consider these points as a means to guide and encourage a change, rather then a punishment. --- I don't know that I have attacked link dead people or not. I certainly haven't ever looked at anyone and said, "he's LD, I'm going to get him." But there's no tags on a linkdead player that would alert you to that and most PK's I engage in are by ambush with sap, so I really can't disprove that one. Countless PK's. Do you guys still contend they won't punish you for PK? So over my last couple of characters ... Greedy One let Mors survive (turning him over to Nektol instead of shooting him with poisoned arrows while he was captured) and that resulted in Greedy One being killed by Mors. Gentleman Gog let Ratter survive after I had her stunned and unconscious on the ground ... the result? She ran to Nektol and got him to kill me. Grud the cannibal mutant cut off and ate the tongue of Nektol's aide instead of just murdering him outright ... and Nektol once again sent a gemmed Whiran to murder me with invisible elementals. Going all the way back to the Butcher Brons days, I'd shown a willingness not to just wantonly murder people but they apparently didn't notice. OOCly sharing ... I haven't really been sharing stories. You guys on this forum know that I've withheld information about active plots to not spoil it. But I have discussed a lot of mechanics. However I'm not sure exactly how they know this. I'd beware of trusting anyone here in PM's if you intend to play the game without getting dinged for OOC. Even though I guarantee you their favorites are sharing FAR more relevant info than anything most players here would have. Combativeness ... yes. I have an unwillingness to be walked on and when I felt I was being treated unfairly I've put in player and staff complaints. None of which were ever resolved to anything even remotely useful on my behalf, and to then have the fact that I USED the complaint system to try and resolve disputes against me ... well ... that's not a fair system. Arm staff ... you failed to engage with me to discuss it and so I gave up on your game, and you, and I feel no qualms at all about discussing why with other people or in public. When you fail to engage honestly in your complaint system then you should expect people to go outside of it. I have some sour grapes about the way it all ended, to be sure, but ultimately I'd like to warn those of you who are still playing of how this ended for me. I was very open about my game activities to staff and some of them used that to burn me. I wished up, put in frequent character reports, and was very open. It didn't matter. I have many character reports where I said I was intending to murder someone (or multiple someones) and they responded with how awesome that plot was going to be. Only at the end of the year to punish me for murdering too many people. They are not consistent. You are better off not engaging staff at all, whether it's through character reports, wishing up (they once even spawned an NPC uber-assassin to attack me when I wished up to let them know I was going to kill someone), or on any forum or Discord. -An ex player. |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Aug 16, 2019 16:09:52 GMT -5
The karma dangling is strong in that message they sent you. Reminds me of some shitty bosses I've had in my life, who see you're completing a day's worth of work in under a day and instead of rewarding you for your efficiency, just push more work on you. The staff have long since moved from a point where they facilitate RP to the point where their job is to extract as much value from players as possible, in the form of "stuff happening". It's complete bullshit. You made the right choice in walking away, and the longer you're gone, the easier it is to stay away.
As far as OOC sharing goes, they should look in-house before they start accusing other players. The staff have always behaved with the attitude that no one in the entire body can do any wrong. Many staff members were well-known for being gossipmongers when they were mere players, and were hired on because the staff dropped their standards in favor of having more warm bodies.
But yeah, as usual they made assumptions and failed to start a dialogue. They decided to talk at you instead of talk with you. Every time they fall into this trap, they risk losing a player. This is hardly the first time it happened and it won't be the last.
If you are interested in stopping potential new players from falling into this trap, I recommend submitting reviews on Mudconnect and the MUD subreddit describing the karma dangling experience. You don't have to, of course, but it can be helpful for the overall MUD community, if you care about that.
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punished ppurg
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Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
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Post by punished ppurg on Aug 16, 2019 16:11:48 GMT -5
Watch the apologists swarm to move goalposts and condescendingly explain that you were in the wrong. Good riddance, they'll say. I'll bet $500 this is a direct, absolute, laser-focused result of Shaloonsh shit-talking you on IMMchat. He probably never shut the fuck up about you. And all it takes is one pissant poisoning the well for something like this to happen.
This karma metric is an absolute joke. "Your asshole isn't loose enough when we fuck you, therefore you're not going to be allowed the objectively better coded incentives we bestow to our complacent peons." It's disgusting. A pay to win model would be better than this. |
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Post by shakes on Aug 16, 2019 16:18:26 GMT -5
I put in negative reviews two years ago the first time I 'quit'.  I made the mistake then of letting someone talk me back into playing the game. It's a decent mud. The roleplay is usually pretty good and the game setting is decent. It's not great, but it's decent. Where it goes wrong is with staff. They have an awful staff. Their system allows the worst possible types to gain control and suppress the best and most eager. They have some good storytellers, but I could often see in character report responses how oppressed those storytellers were (and how much they disliked it). If someone just wants to explore an interesting world for awhile with no expectations of receiving karma, or getting sponsored roles then they could have a fun time with Arm for awhile. But if you're in a game for the long haul like I was ... Armageddon is NOT for you. Even if you're a nobody, non-clan player like I have been ... they will still come after you to either hobble your plans or outright thwart them if your actions are going against one of their favorites. |
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Post by shakes on Aug 16, 2019 16:24:16 GMT -5
Watch the apologists swarm to move goalposts and condescendingly explain that you were in the wrong. Good riddance, they'll say. I'll bet $500 this is a direct, absolute, laser-focused result of Shaloonsh shit-talking you on IMMchat. He probably never shut the fuck up about you. And all it takes is one pissant poisoning the well for something like this to happen.
This karma metric is an absolute joke. "Your asshole isn't loose enough when we fuck you, therefore you're not going to be allowed the objectively better coded incentives we bestow to our complacent peons." It's disgusting. A pay to win model would be better than this. I too believe it was all about Shalooonsh. That dude is very toxic. You know, when I first got picked to play in his new clan the Two Moons, I was very excited. I asked him what kind of character he needed and he said, "I need you" and I was flattered. He said he didn't have any crafters so I made a crafter (adventurer is a pretty fun class anyway). We got on well in responses to my character reports and everything. He knew EXACTLY what I was planning with Tavrian-da and why I was doing it and he encouraged me to continue in his responses ... and then suddenly he animates the game world characters to attack me for doing it? I had the audacity to argue with him then and I took the matter to Shabago ... who very meekly tried to stand up for me before saying he had to go and abandoning me. I don't think Shalooonsh has ever forgiven me for that and he's even done petty things like grab my new character submissions and hold on to them for 3-4 days before approving. But filing staff complaints about it got me labeled as "combative". |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Aug 16, 2019 16:27:31 GMT -5
Yikes. That sounds like a nightmare. Shalooonsh, aka The Idiot With the Githclit Tattoo, has a lot of personal problems related to bullying players, but that just sounds like another big one to add to the list.
Out of curiosity, what are you doing next? Moving on to a new MUD, or doing non-MUD stuff for a while?
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Post by shakes on Aug 16, 2019 16:31:23 GMT -5
I'll add that some would say that "ragequitting after being denied a karma point" is a bit extreme, but the reality is that it was just the final straw for me. I had honestly tried to comply with LAST YEAR's karma denial and then to have them act as if I hadn't done so ... after repeatedly stomping on me for the past year ... that was just too much.
In case you're interested ... here's LAST year's denial.
---
Hi - first of all - apologies this has taken so long to resolve. It generated a fair amount of discussion. The gist of what we've been discussing follows here:
You are seeking a second point of karma. To be at this level requires that you meet certain criteria, but also generally that staff consider you trustworthy to play roles that have the power this level of karma would enable you to have. Half-giants, most magickers, and spec app access to muls and all elementalism - specifically.
There are concerns that you consider the virtual world and the restraint that it requires to play a believable character that treats the world as real, with real restrictions and repercussions - a chore, or something that can be circumvented when it is beneficial to the story you want to tell. This desire to tell your story, at the expense of theme or the enjoyment of those around you is enforced through developing character skills and using PKilling as a way to remove opposition.
You know how to present a compelling character and do so with character concepts that people often shy away from. You demonstrate a willingness to be a perpetual bad guy of every kind of stripe. To do this without compromising in order to play nice with others is impressive, but partially propped up by a reliance on IC violence and dismissal of the virtual world when playing on your own.
In order for you to develop as a player, in terms of karma, we would appreciate seeing you play characters who don't default to murder and assault, who interact more consistently with a wider variety of characters and play that shows restraint in how you move through the virtual world.
Your Karma Review request has been resolved.
Seidhr
Administrator
Armageddon Staff
---
Yes. For two years now I have been told by staff that I am too violent for a game whose tagline is "Murder. Corruption. Betrayal."
And ironically? All of those characters of mine have been pkilled by high karma players.
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Post by shakes on Aug 16, 2019 16:33:19 GMT -5
Yikes. That sounds like a nightmare. Shalooonsh, aka The Idiot With the Githclit Tattoo, has a lot of personal problems related to bullying players, but that just sounds like another big one to add to the list. Out of curiosity, what are you doing next? Moving on to a new MUD, or doing non-MUD stuff for a while? I considered moving on to a new mud and I spent a few days looking for a new one, but ultimately I decided I need to focus on my writing projects. I'm a professional writer and (sadly) I've sunk too much time in "free" storytelling in a game that didn't even reward me for it. All my storytelling and character development efforts now need to be focused on my books which actually earn me a living. |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Aug 16, 2019 16:52:49 GMT -5
Yikes. That sounds like a nightmare. Shalooonsh, aka The Idiot With the Githclit Tattoo, has a lot of personal problems related to bullying players, but that just sounds like another big one to add to the list. Out of curiosity, what are you doing next? Moving on to a new MUD, or doing non-MUD stuff for a while? I considered moving on to a new mud and I spent a few days looking for a new one, but ultimately I decided I need to focus on my writing projects. I'm a professional writer and (sadly) I've sunk too much time in "free" storytelling in a game that didn't even reward me for it. All my storytelling and character development efforts now need to be focused on my books which actually earn me a living. That sounds awesome. That is actually a set of circumstances similar to one of the people I helped through quitting Arm. They're now studying creative writing and hope to finish a book early next year. Best of luck to you! |
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Post by shakes on Aug 16, 2019 16:57:55 GMT -5
Thanks!
I've written 12 books, published 5. I gave up on the traditional publishing route and went into self-publishing. Your friend should look into that. You won't make as much as if you got picked up by a big publisher, but on the other hand ... I tried for 25+ years to be picked up by a big publisher and never did. Whereas now with self-publishing I can make a modest living.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 17:18:41 GMT -5
That's amazing!
Can you tell me more about your work?
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Post by shakes on Aug 16, 2019 17:22:00 GMT -5
That's amazing! Can you tell me more about your work? Not really. My trust for online people has dropped to nil. If you want to know the mechanics of being a writer then I'll explain, but there's 10,000 videos of that on YouTube and everyone does it differently. I certainly won't disclose any personal info about myself here though. You've got crazy, irrational people who would think nothing of cyberstalking or review-bombing because I slighted their video game. |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Aug 16, 2019 17:54:17 GMT -5
Yup - former players as well as staff have been harassed for leaving the game. Multiple people have reported as much in reviews and such. It's actually one of the biggest cultlike tendencies the Armageddon community has, in both producing harassers as well as non-harassers who turn a blind eye to harassment.
The best thing you can really do when leaving a toxic community (which Armageddon is) is cut ties as cleanly as you can and move on with your life. And it seems like you're doing just that. I'd say it definitely helps that you have some past successes to build on, and not letting people drag you down is a good move.
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Aug 16, 2019 18:00:12 GMT -5
I do want to point out 'ragequitting' over denied karma is kind of a poor attack to levy.
Armageddon is a game, not a social contract, nor something you owe anything too.
When someone stops enjoying a game they have the right to leave the game. Even tabletop games with people you meet face to face, you may leave those despite there being a higher expected level of consideration. Armageddon where people die all the time and turnover is high, anyone you owed any resolution too will probably be dead before the end of the year and those that don't... Well a carru/beetle/raider/gith killed you, must be because he vanished. No different than lawl dying to an abnormally strong NPC spawn or PVP.
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Post by shakes on Aug 16, 2019 18:10:51 GMT -5
Yeah. It's catharsis to have your final say, talk about the good old days, but in a few months to a year I won't have shit in common with anyone here any more than I would on the GDB and I'll just fade away.
People will discover this forum and read my swansong and think, "well that was bitter but I'm sure it'll never happen to me." Because that's just what I did.
About the time I was really starting to play frequently was the time that girl was sexually harassed and posted about it and bailed on the game. I remember thinking at the time that it was extremely strange and puzzling over it and then ... boom ... oh look, my next character is approved ... I hope I got good stats.
It's sort of a tendency to think something won't happen to you, even when you can see that all the elements for it to happen are still in place. No corrections were made, no surface-level changes to process or accountability. And just like how her "final straw" seemed to me to be something that should have EASILY been resolved in the request tool, she probably had fifty more incidents that had gone unresolved, or worse, been punished for even bringing hope. What seems like a small issue for someone quitting something they've invested time in and enjoyed (sunk cost economic theory ... look it up) is called the 'last straw' for a reason. A straw is a small, lightweight thing, but they do add up over time.
That's one reason I linked my own swansong to some known characters that some readers of this may have played with before.
Butcher Brons
Gentleman Gog
Greedy One
Ventus the Vile
Grud the cannibal mutant
Mordhu the green dwarf who started the 'rangers'
White, the albino swordsman out of Red Storm
The Beast of Red Storm, the tusked mutant Rukkian
An unknown name on a forum is easy to just overlook, but some readers will see those names and think, "I had fun with that guy ... I wonder why they drove him off?"
Then they start to look more closely at the goings on. Maybe they are in a position to affect change, or if nothing else they can moderate their own investment with more clarity than I had. If I had set my expectations properly from the beginning I probably wouldn't be so bitter about the game now. But no, I fell for what they dangled. I should have known better but a flaw in my psychological makeup seems to be that I tend to take people for their word and assume they're coming from a point of honesty. I'm better at handling that in real life than I seem to be in the game world.
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