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Post by shakes on Feb 13, 2019 14:09:26 GMT -5
Let's NOT be the GDB. If you don't like qwerty and his arguments, then sharpen your verbal swords and apply some logic to an argument to counter him. if the roles were reversed and this was the GDB, qwerty would have had his posts deleted and been banned a long time ago. he has been extended a courtesy far beyond what staff are willing to give. Acknowledged. Your restraint in not exercising the ban power of your forum is honorable. Especially in this day and age where dissent is hardly tolerated anywhere. But a dogpile is still a dogpile. |
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Post by pinkerdlu on Feb 13, 2019 14:10:10 GMT -5
I think you're much more of an idealist than you let on, shakes. For the record, the early shadowboards were much more active and were anything but an echo chamber. But when there is a long history of injustice, coupled with inaction and degeneration/stagnation in the present... Yes, staff shills and trolls like qwerty have always been disdained and appropriately flamed. If they actually communicated rationally and in a reasonable fashion, they would not be treated as such. Qwerty likes to hide behind a facade of objectivity and 'genuine' curiosity. You're wet behind the ears (at least in terms of internet debates...) if you fall for it. No, he's not being reasonable. He's mocking you and being purposefully deceiving. At least he's not being permanently banned, blacklisted and erased like a pleathora of GDB posters. |
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
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Post by Jeshin on Feb 13, 2019 14:11:27 GMT -5
I wasn't punished for years after I outed who I was until the code leak happened and then Redranger and I both got banned. His got lifted. Mine did not. Have you appealed? You should appeal, if not. I don't think any real damage was done by that code leak. I think the code leak was the best thing that ever happened to Arm discussion. It spills literally zero secrets, ruins nobody's fun, and enhanced the enjoyment of all of us code grognards because now we had a consistent basis for learning. Even though significant portions of the code seemed to be superseded. I spoke with Adhira via the request tool. It was determined I was a baddie. Also I have said multiple times in the past that I had violated the games rules by posting my request tool history on these boards. I used to even point out that I had yet to be banned. Then the code leak happened a significant time after I quit and I was banned by association and my own forum was attacked on Mudconnector by Nergal. I reached out to staff to obviously go hey Nergal appears to be trying to drag my name through the mud. There was an entire thread on Mudconnector before they overhauled their forums of Nergal attacking me over a code leak that was 1) not on my forum 2) I never asked to happen 3) I refused to apologize for discussing. armageddonmud.boards.net/post/27994/thread |
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ibusoe
Clueless newb
Posts: 176
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Post by ibusoe on Feb 13, 2019 14:12:14 GMT -5
I'm sorry? Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding me.
Well, the "nonsalaried volunteers" thing was so bad it became a meme. I guess if you're going to run a free MUD, you shouldn't use the excuse that you're not being paid to do a bad job. I guess as far as personal advice is, whether you're a salaryman or a volunteer, if you goof and get called out about it, fess up to the goof and be prepared to make amends? Complaining about your salary to your customer base isn't laudable. I recently tried to run a MUD and it crashed and burned, so I apologized to all involved and tried to absorb as much responsibility as possible. My goal was that if I gave it a shot again in five years, people would think highly of me and wouldn't have bad memories of working with me. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 14:13:30 GMT -5
I wasn't punished for years after I outed who I was until the code leak happened and then Redranger and I both got banned. His got lifted. Mine did not. Have you appealed? You should appeal, if not. I don't think any real damage was done by that code leak. I think the code leak was the best thing that ever happened to Arm discussion. It spills literally zero secrets, ruins nobody's fun, and enhanced the enjoyment of all of us code grognards because now we had a consistent basis for learning. Even though significant portions of the code seemed to be superseded.
I dont think he was banned for a code leak. He was banned for wiki leak. Which was reported as procured by a hack, which Jeshin then supported at some other forum. I think Nergal, or maybe Ness banned him for supporting a hacking. Jeshin was a bit of a special case, because he ran an independent community forum at the time and portrayed himself as an objective persona, equally interested in all forms of MUD and roleplay. That visage, in some (my own at the very least) opinion got tarnished significantly. No objective person interested in MUDs, could possibly support "any" kind of hacking of staff tools. Again. The difference between talking on these forums and leaking wiki, is a difference of talking about secrets of past characters to your d&d friends and taking pictures of DM's notes on puzzles and upcoming bosses while the DM skipped out to the bathroom.
Admittedly. It was most likely "not" a hack and probably just some staffer leaked it and then asked the one who posted it to claim it was a hack. The actual information on that wiki was also severely obsolete, except for some RL phones/addresses of some people that Jcarter quickly removed. Good. It was still presented as a result of a hack and shouldnt have been vocally supported by an entity of community weight. It's like a GM of one mud supporting one of their players for ddosing a competitor MUD. Just not cool.
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faroukel
Displaced Tuluki
What's a story without a villain?
Posts: 201
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Post by faroukel on Feb 13, 2019 14:17:28 GMT -5
I dont think he was banned for a code leak. He was banned for wiki leak. Which was reported as procured by a hack, which Jeshin then supported at some other forum. I think Noted Liar Noted Liar Noted Liar Nergal, or maybe Ness banned him for supporting a hacking. Jeshin was a bit of a special case, because he ran an independent community forum at the time and portrayed himself as an objective persona, equally interested in all forms of MUD and roleplay. That visage, in some (my own at the very least) opinion got tarnished significantly. No objective person interested in MUDs, could possibly support "any" kind of hacking of staff tools. Again. The difference between talking on these forums and leaking wiki, is a difference of talking about secrets of past characters to your d&d friends and taking pictures of DM's notes on puzzles and upcoming bosses while the DM skipped out to the bathroom.
Admittedly. It was most likely "not" a hack and probably just some staffer leaked it and then asked the one who posted it to claim it was a hack. The actual information on that wiki was also severely obsolete, except for some RL phones/addresses of some people that Jcarter quickly removed. Good. It was still presented as a result of a hack and shouldnt have been vocally supported by an entity of community weight. It's like a GM of one mud supporting one of their players for ddosing a competitor MUD. Just not cool.
Prove it was a hack. Prove it was Jeshin or supported thereby. Otherwise, your shit stinks just like everyone else's. I'll be waiting for screenshots. Thanks.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
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Post by Jeshin on Feb 13, 2019 14:18:22 GMT -5
I was actually attacked both for the code leak and the wiki leak  so take your pick. I'm glad that Armageddon staff get to punish a community voice for discussing a community topic. Mayhap they would like to ban other community voices in the future (who aren't even playing anymore or never played to begin with?) |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 14:21:58 GMT -5
I'm sorry? Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding me.
Well, the "nonsalaried volunteers" thing was so bad it became a meme. I guess if you're going to run a free MUD, you shouldn't use the excuse that you're not being paid to do a bad job. I guess as far as personal advice is, whether you're a salaryman or a volunteer, if you goof and get called out about it, fess up to the goof and be prepared to make amends? Complaining about your salary to your customer base isn't laudable. I recently tried to run a MUD and it crashed and burned, so I apologized to all involved and tried to absorb as much responsibility as possible. My goal was that if I gave it a shot again in five years, people would think highly of me and wouldn't have bad memories of working with me.
Ohhhh. Nooo. Not my point. I forgot about the meme.
The issue is that Armageddon staff is a position drawn from other players. If this was a 'paid' position, we'd have professionally trained staff with a degree law and psychology for administration. A position they'd care for, because it's their livelyhood. It wouldnt be 'entertainment' for them, or a way to realize themselves in ways they cant otherwise. It would be their 'job' and they'd have to do it professionally, immaculately, responsibly, and ... properly.
The bolded part is the point.
If you start your mud. You'll be running it because you like it, are passionate about it, and want other players to love what you do. But then you recruit more staff, because you cant handle what you hope is achieved. Your pool is other players. Some people will join you out of passionate for the game you created and that's great. Others will join you, because it's a step on their ascendancy of rank and title within the gameworld you've created. Some of those new staff will be excellent and their actions will be done out of love. Others will have other things motivating them. It's a hit and miss.
The whole thing about 'paid' position. It's not about it making money, or not. It's that if you were to hire a staffer. It wont matter if they join you because they love the game, or because they just want more power, or whatever. You'll expect them to do a good job, because you pay them. Therefore they wont be governed by other, less optimal motivations. But since this is not the case. You work with the deck you've got.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 14:24:28 GMT -5
I was actually attacked both for the code leak and the wiki leak so take your pick. I'm glad that Armageddon staff get to punish a community voice for discussing a community topic. Mayhap they would like to ban other community voices in the future (who aren't even playing anymore or never played to begin with?)
Oh. Sorry. I sort of stopped keeping track of OR after the wiki leak. I just recall the conversations during that time.
Do you know of any community voice out there who supports hacking of another game?
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faroukel
Displaced Tuluki
What's a story without a villain?
Posts: 201
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Post by faroukel on Feb 13, 2019 14:30:21 GMT -5
I've read a lot of optional realities posts, and never crossed this. C'mon qwerty, show and prove, so we can get behind you.
Kinda looks like your tossing dirt through recollections of past conversations. Who does that..
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Post by jcarter on Feb 13, 2019 14:32:35 GMT -5
I was actually attacked both for the code leak and the wiki leak so take your pick. I'm glad that Armageddon staff get to punish a community voice for discussing a community topic. Mayhap they would like to ban other community voices in the future (who aren't even playing anymore or never played to begin with?) Oh. Sorry. I sort of stopped keeping track of OR after the wiki leak. I just recall the conversations during that time.
Do you know of any community voice out there who supports hacking of another game?
this is the kind of disingenuous shit we're talking about. jeshin never supported the hacking. qwerty is of course unable to support evidence for this (and won't respond if you ask him to) but will still distort and twist actual events in order to justify staff actions. |
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Post by shakes on Feb 13, 2019 14:34:19 GMT -5
I got some pretty poor support from the paid support staff of World of Warcraft. People will always do a better job for something they love than something they get paid for. Human nature. Part of the problem with Arm is probably that the original staff who loved the game have gone on in the 20 years or so since inception and what you've got is watered down enthusiasm mixed with power-hungry people. I saw that on MUME when I was a staffer there. A few people like me just liked to build zones, but you had a large segment who just wanted to be "on staff" and when they got there they'd do jack all. Based on the size of Arm's staff and how little you see actually getting done, I suspect there's a lot there who do jack all and just like having staff positions. They've effectively quit playing the game too, but still like to use their staff tools to spy on others. Those would be dangerous people to have on staff, but I don't know how you would root them out. |
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Feb 13, 2019 14:36:08 GMT -5
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faroukel
Displaced Tuluki
What's a story without a villain?
Posts: 201
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Post by faroukel on Feb 13, 2019 14:36:43 GMT -5
shakes You root them out from the inside. You drop balls and call people out. And if it doesn't work, you fuck off and spend your time being engaged with better things (and spout diatribes on the internet every once in a while.)
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faroukel
Displaced Tuluki
What's a story without a villain?
Posts: 201
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Post by faroukel on Feb 13, 2019 14:39:31 GMT -5
Kinda sounds like qwerty dun did a 360 into his own asshole with his "proof required" declaration.
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so take your pick.