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Post by shakes on Oct 2, 2018 11:52:55 GMT -5
I don't know Shanks, nor have I ever heard of him. Must have been before my time and I've played a lot in the rinth.
I've fallen victim to that "I never actually play but I want to remain in charge so I'm going to oust/kill you" type of player. That's where I really feel staff should be stepping in more, but I've never seen it. Maybe they just expect you to handle it yourself, but that's difficult too. Especially when you're facing off against someone with vastly more twink time than you can manage to accumulate before they off you.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Oct 2, 2018 12:23:49 GMT -5
Basically. Amon'ma was very very rare. So much so that his character took over leadership. He was playing this scary cannibalistic dwarf who was completely fat and totally badass. Then Amon'ma returned to activity, killed the dwarf to regain leadership, and then became scarce again. Boom. Plop. Poof. I'm not sure it happened *exactly* like that. To my knowledge, Dokkar and Amon'ma had been tight and playing actively together for a couple of months. Then Amon'ma kills Dokkar out of nowhere, the Crimson Wind die down and become largely irrelevant and yeah, Amon'ma becomes scarce for months-on-end. Now, apparently, he's still alive but only exists to police the PC dynamic in Red Storm at will. why would he kill one of his own raiders then that seems pretty dumb |
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Post by pinkerdlu on Oct 2, 2018 12:29:07 GMT -5
I'm not sure it happened *exactly* like that. To my knowledge, Dokkar and Amon'ma had been tight and playing actively together for a couple of months. Then Amon'ma kills Dokkar out of nowhere, the Crimson Wind die down and become largely irrelevant and yeah, Amon'ma becomes scarce for months-on-end. Now, apparently, he's still alive but only exists to police the PC dynamic in Red Storm at will. why would he kill one of his own raiders then that seems pretty dumb I think Amon'ma had a history of his second-in-commands trying to oust him? So maybe he was making a preemptive strike against Dokkar. I don't know, but it was a stupid death. He was a cool character that brought life to one of my favorite spheres. |
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Post by shakes on Oct 2, 2018 13:20:22 GMT -5
I've always liked and respected Amon for the fun he brings to the game, and its flavor. But I've witnessed that behavior where he brings people up to his second and then murders them several times and it's maddening. I think it wouldn't happen if he stayed active.
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Deleted
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Oct 2, 2018 13:21:56 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 13:21:56 GMT -5
I doubt that dokkar really ousted him, as in "I'm the boss! All you bitches will obey me now!"
In absence of leadership, new leaders arise. He was just the most colorful, constructive, engaging out of those present.
If I understood correctly, Amon popped him because Dokkar was bringing CW into a direction that Amonma did not want his creation to go.
Which direction though, I dont know. Was CW more PK happy under Dokkar then without him? I dont think so. CW was rich in PK at all times.
Was CW problem solving revolved only around PK? Was CW getting too much in cahoots with Templarate/Nobility? Was CW getting too hostile with templarate/nobility? I dont know. None of that would've been too big a deal, if Amonma was a more present entity. His authority 'far' outweighed dokkars.
Hopefully. Amonma negotiated something real awesome with templarate for the death of his Lt. That would've been the best, albeit a little sad outcome.
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Post by gringoose on Oct 2, 2018 18:22:12 GMT -5
If Armageddon were to have the optimal rate of PK it wouldn't make much of a difference for player retention. Armageddon was stagnating by the late 00s. Then when Shadows of Isildur closed and started dying off it enjoyed a boom in active players for a few years and PK and the 00s and early 10s was much more frequent than it is now. You can't PK anymore in Armageddon now without somebody noticing and you quickly becoming a target. Being a target means you can't go into the centers of roleplay which cuts the fun you can have with the game down significantly. It used to be you could PK and it would get lost in the hustle and bustle of the large numbers of players and you could still participate in the centers of roleplay. Especially when Tuluk was going strong you could hop between there and Allanak whenever you were starting to draw too much attention in one city or the other.
Now, the playing experience of PKers is becoming ever increasingly like that of a hermit which will only become worse if the number of active players continue to decrease. When player population continues to decrease then at some point PK will become impossible because you will become almost totally socially isolated if you do it. The entire theme of the game of murder and intrigue will die at that point and the game will become dead. It can't be helped either at that point and no policy could fix it since intrigue is impossible when everybody knows each other. If anything, it's PKers losing interest and leaving the game and not people quitting over feeling griefed. The venting over PK is just another side effect of a shrinking player base. That's at least what I think. There was a lot more PK back when Armageddon was peaking at 80+ players, just most people never saw the full picture of the sheer amount of it going on at the time. |
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Post by shakes on Oct 2, 2018 18:31:12 GMT -5
I think what's happening is that we've lost a lot of the more 'active' players who actually went out and did things and occasionally mixed it up in pk and you now have a lot more of the type who just log into their phone to sit in the bar in a roleplay chat room and occasionally go mudsex on their work break.
That second type HATES pk and is constantly trying to redefine its boundaries. This is not a single MUD experience of mine, but what I've witnessed across multiple muds.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 18:33:05 GMT -5
Agreed. 10 years ago, the number of new characters created every single day was in the dozens. Having said that, shit PKs have caused people to quit. You cant really argue that. Its just not the biggest reason.
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Post by lechuck on Oct 3, 2018 1:59:56 GMT -5
A lot of it comes from the fact that so little happens in the game that each PK is such a notable event. I remember a few years back when a noble hired the Guild to assassinate his cousin, which they did cleanly, and then staff launched a full blown red-robe investigation into the contract killing of this fucking junior noble. The Guild boss was arrested and executed the next time he set foot southside and the rest of the clan's members stored because their characters had basically become unplayable.
Back in the day, there was actually shit going on and people didn't focus so much on individual killings, so you could get away with it unless you went way too far. Now you basically have to do it in a locked apartment and pray that the victim's player won't tattle on Discord, otherwise your character is marked for death because everyone's so starved for things to react to.
It goes beyond PKing, too. For the last few years, I've seen a growing trend of characters getting dealt with in one way or another when they become someone. Excepting sponsored roles and extremely privileged fringe endeavors like the Crimson Wind (who, let's be honest, are Arm's trust fond kids), PCs just seem to have an expiration date once they become well-known for anything other than being a diligent sergeant or something.
I played Saraan the Usurer like six months ago, starting out as an independent nobody pickpocket before becoming a professional thief, moneylender and associate of the Guild (not an actual member; kinda like Hesh from the Sopranos). As soon as I started to really make moves, all three active templars individually approached me to get me working for them. That's very nice and all, but since I obviously couldn't play private agent to all three, the one that I declined decided to execute me for "being a criminal" a few days after I'd bribed him 4k. Yay.
I mean, he was within his rights and everything, but the fact remains that it was to me just yet another sign of how you simply can't stand out and do anything unusual without the plot-starved masses scrambling to do one of two things: join your shit or take you down. I haven't played since then because honestly, that sort of roleplay culture is self-destructive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2018 2:11:43 GMT -5
Excepting sponsored roles and extremely privileged fringe endeavors like the Crimson Wind (who, let's be honest, are Arm's trust fond kids)
Agreed with most of your post, except this part.
Let's be honest. It's not. And it makes me laugh to read you state that.
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Post by lechuck on Oct 3, 2018 2:57:03 GMT -5
Look, we know you're hysterically defensive about the parts of the game that you have some kind of kinship with, but can we please not pretend that the CW crew are wholly self-made and on equal footing with the rest of the playerbase? Thanks. They're cool and all, but they serve as an excellent example of how you can't stand out and be someone for any real length of time unless you're either in a sponsored role or have special advantages that other players don't. Pretty hard to be a notorious raider gang if you have to operate out of an apartment like some random band of hunters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2018 6:03:07 GMT -5
In the entirety of CW. There is only one person remaining from the start. Amon'ma. Everyone else are one big cycle. Shakes played in CW and he's no staff pet. Inks lead it and he's no staff pet. To call them all trust fun kids is spreading unfounded bullshit in absolute ignorance.
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punished ppurg
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Post by punished ppurg on Oct 3, 2018 8:40:37 GMT -5
He's not saying that. He's saying that the CW as an entity has had more bones thrown at them than practically every other clan in the game combined over the same time-frame. The staff aren't interested in "babying favorites" in this specific case. This is a motivated effort to counter the prolonged complaints that raiding had become impossible in the game world. 1) Stop moving goal posts 2) Address the facts instead of dancing around them. There have been similar efforts to organize raiding groups by (in my opinion) better players. They were wiped out because they didn't have staff support. Staff didn't see them as "necessary"; indeed, they tripped over themselves to provide a "realistic world response" by wiping them out. You see this happen with elves in the 'Rinth every now and then too. It's the same meme. If we had the same oldbie outcry that elf pickpocket gangs have become impossible in the game world, we'd have the same staff throwing the same bones... Probably animating senior nobles to walk somewhere with a copper dagger on their waist for their group to steal — bones being thrown that nobody else prior ever had the advantage of receiving.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2018 8:59:33 GMT -5
Stop moving goal posts indeed. At one point, people say that staff does not allow players to get anything done. And when finally something does manage to happen, you demean those players for managing to do it. What is the option preferable then? Do not make things possible "ever", only because it wasnt possible before? What about the new apartments in Red Storm, or the sadly failing introduction of Dust Runners. Instead of celebrating that someone managed to create and sustain a raider clan, you demean them for managing to do it. Then you criticize the game for not introducing anything new, while clearly staff was investing time in an initiative of reinvigorating the entire player area. There is nothing constructive in this approach. Just bitterness and blind hatred.
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punished ppurg
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Post by punished ppurg on Oct 3, 2018 9:51:03 GMT -5
Must everything be a binary all-or-nothing with you?
Staff do not allow players to get anything done that they do not want to happen. That's the key — that's what you ignore in order for your trite rhetoric to actually have some grip. It's all so tiresome.
I'm not demeaning the CW per se. I'm stating the reality that they would not be as "successful" as they are if the staff did not want them to be so. You can look at this fact in the myriad of boons and animations that were given to them in contrast to all other raiding groups.
It may be bitterness but it is not blind at all. If anything, it's seeing the whole picture. I'm not moved by efforts to make an area more habitable like Red Storm — sure, that's a good thing to do. It doesn't move me to get over the mismanagement in the past and invest in the game. In a game of nearly a dozen staffers, one good boy was: copy-pasting apartment template blueprints; digging up an old clan to re-open. And you call this "reinvigorating the entire player area" of Red Storm. Doesn't feel reinvigorated to me dude.
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