mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jun 3, 2018 7:30:29 GMT -5
Then there was this autistic post in response:
Comrade, you must stand and fight for the proletariat! The karma bourgeois will not care if you walk away!
Hey... come back here! We need players, man! Please!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2018 16:21:24 GMT -5
Not when this board first started, but within a couple of years, people started using it to raise incredibly valid concerns about problems with the game.
Some of those were handled, but not without some weird online war sHaDowBoArD rebellion of sorts.
It was really messy, and it still is. But I would like to think that some aspects of the game have been improved by this board: first and foremost, the Fall of Nyr.
I found it unfortunate that imms like Nergal repeatedly trash-talked this board, just trying to shut it down and continue witch hunts, making remarks about how inconsequential it is... basically, just trying to downplay serious issues instead of addressing them. In the middle of so serious of a problem, you do not ignore your problem, belittle it, or just act like it isn't there.
Rememember, even Sanvean wrote a book about characters in a book who started demanding their rights. Do you think she didn't draw from her experience as one of the most lasting and influential staff members?
People started demanding their rights, people who rightfully felt that they had been treated unfairly by Nyr and others. What else can you expect?
They had been playing a game for a long time when, suddenly, new "leaders" appeared, along with far more abusive behavior than we had ever seen before.
It had to be stopped. This board was and is a foot in the door to that.
Many people who wish for the game to die forever, like they say here, have been posting consistently on this board for, what, years now. I think it's because, well, if they don't play, then it's because the game DOES mean something to them and they are frustrated because of matters varying in degrees of severity. If they didn't care at all, they would play Fortnite, or League of Legends, or whatever, and never give ArmageddonMUD a minute's thought again ever in their lives.
Personally, I do not want ArmageddonMUD to die. It is 2018, and I've played it since 1999. Longer than some players have been alive, probably.
What I do want... is continued improvement on the relations front. I do not want staff to give people REASONS to come here tell some horrible story about what happened to them. People are not perfect, though, so it will continue to happen to some degree, and it is good that there is a place to take it to when it happens: namely, here.
What I don't like to see is senseless toxicity. With that shit, credible arguments and points brought up here are detracted from. Fortunately, there have been some credible points brought up here which have helped the game, but trying to hack away at the amount of people playing, well, I don't think it's for the best.
There is a distinction between legitimate criticism and rancor with intent of destruction, and we should just be mindful of that.
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Post by lyse on Jun 3, 2018 17:40:31 GMT -5
What should be worrying is the why because as soon as the plots get out there will be people actively trying to ruin it...for no good reason On some level, you can't blame people. So little happens in the game that whenever the first sprouts of a fledgling plot do pop out of the soil, everyone's just so desperate to get involved that they hug it to death. When you conduct the only noteworthy public plot in the last three RL years, every Dick, Jane and Tom is scrambling to get involved in any possible way. This means you can't get away with anything, because when the whole playerbase is scrutinizing your every action, you're not long for this world. But why wouldn't they? Nothing out of the ordinary has happened in so long it's barely worth remembering. This game sorely needs an old-fashioned HRPT, the kind where meaningful shit happens. The type of event that actually changes the way the game is played, at least for a while. Why don't the gith attack Allanak, forcing the AotD to deploy the bulk of its troops to the frontier and hire the Byn? This would not only give combat types something to do but also sow the seeds for a criminal underworld to pop up which, with just a little bit of staff support, would get the ball rolling for some meaningful roleplay in that venue. But no, that would take more than an hour a week of some storyteller's time. Can't do that. Sure you can. You can't point out a Lizzie in another thread like a cancer to the game, then pretend everybody else is squeaky clean. There are plenty of other Lizzies and plenty of other bad behavior that stems from players. Lizzie just happens to be one of the more vocal ones. Shitty players gon' be shitty players. The problem is Arm isn't a game where they simply exist, it's a game where they thrive and have done so for so long that it's a part of the game. What you're talking about is a sort of twisted way of condoning shitty behavior. It's ridiculously easy to sit back and take shots, tear down or disrupt a plot. So easy that...that's what most people do. It's passenger RP. People are afraid to take the lead in certain things because they know half of the other players are waiting for a fuckup. Ever seen a Byn sarge die in the field? I have and it's hilarious. Not because of the death, but because you can see the smoke coming from the ears of whoever is playing the first through the screen. While we're on the Byn...leading people off a cliff is a fucking meme! That creates an environment where nobody wants to try anything because they're afraid to fuck up. That's in the culture of the game. It's gotten so bad that it's mostly newbies that attempt to drive the wagon or lead the Byn. I'm speaking metaphorically here by the way, but that's not coming from staff. What I'm talking about is like someone about to put the seeds down and someone running next to them and pissing in the soil. Kind of pointless to even put the seeds down now isn't it? What could prevent that or lessen that to a large extent? Give everybody something to do. You're thinking HRPT, but let's not call it that anymore because of past transgressions. Let's call it a story arc, because the game should be telling a story and it should be something that is ongoing. In other words, the game should be the HRPT itself. Sure you could call crescendo events HRPTs, but they should be in the context of the arc. The way the game is now, nothing seems connected. If it's intentional, it's poor design. Everybody should be aware of the main arc whether you're in a clan or an indie. It should be on the main page. This provides a framework, frameworks are good. It gives you something to think about when you're making a character, it gives a leader something to think about in terms of the direction they can take their clan. It provides context for everything. Where do clans fit in? Now there's another frame in the frame of the arc. When you get access to a clan board, it should be stickied right at the top of the board what the clans goal is right there, with developments based on what players did and how it moves the story along. Now players that have joined later know exactly what is going on and where they stand. The added benefit is players won't be looking at each other like "wtf are you doing?" Indies have a place here too. If you're that kind of player, a self starter you can make your attempt at something within the framework of the arc. Like you said criminals, small time traders, whatever. Now, everybody has something to do. There can be conflict in there between clans. That should be built into whatever the clans goals are. Those conflicts should not be ongoing, they should be over things that are attainable and definitive like resources and locations. Things that are finite and things that can change hands. Are staff doing something like this behind the scenes? Possibly. Most likely. It's important to have this kind of story arc out in the open because they can't be accused of cheating to make x outcome happen. Everybody can see what has happened. Most importantly it also makes them accountable for being above board as far as the plot goes. It's ok for the GM to have a screen, but everybody needs to know what the hell is going on. Simple right? What I'm proposing here is a hell of a lot simpler than a class overhaul. Which won't change a thing as far as how the game is played. I think what I'm proposing is a hell of a lot more interesting than the plots that go on today. I'm almost 40, I could give a damn about a plot about someone drawing dicks in the sand outside of Luirs or the latest Fale party. I want shit to happen that is complex as I know life is. If there is no framework, no structure....Those are the kind of plots we're going to be stuck with. See to me that's what an RPI promises, what sets it apart from H&S, what sets it apart from Mush. A story with definitive events, that I have the power to effect. Instead, in Arm I have no overall story, players playing out sophomoric buckshot because that's all they're allowed to do and staff doing stupid, petty things behind the scenes that are Halaster level bad. Arm is the game I just described there. Arm will never be the game I described above that. It's built into the DNA of the game. It stems from players and staff. Nobody wants to take the steps to change the fundamentals of how the game works, not players, not staff. The fundamentals of the game are fucked up, but nobody wants to admit that. At some point someone confused a fucked up world with a fucked up game. It's really that simple. It's a game that attracts all types but manages to scare off a large percent of players, while managing to retain the Lizzies, the Alt-right wackos, the Queen bees, the people that are neglecting their kids while they play for 12 hours straight and brag about it on discord. It manages to keep the fringe while alienating everyone else. So yeah...I actually can blame people. You should too. |
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
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Post by julio on Jun 3, 2018 19:37:27 GMT -5
I love being able to add an emote to any action.
When you combine permadeath with a highly emotive code and RPenforcement you create a great game.
You need first of all: a limited area to socialize... In a setting where death is a real possibility. Perhaps a space station, with a food and water shortage and JUST two guilds to start...
To start: manufacturers and miners. Manufacturers build items from the materials miners bring in from space. These include extra rooms to the space station.
No one is a warrior, everyone can inherently fight. Guns and explosives are not allowed because of the danger to everyone on board.
This simple model of TWO guilds creates competing forces who want control, but who have a mutual need. Plenty of RP tohave. Anyone can feasibly murder and defend themselves. So a super simple combat code can launch the game and combat can be fleshed out as the game progresses.
Items and rooms are 100% player created with assistance and approval of leadership players, who follow a guideline from staff. This is the only use of Karma which is based on 1 year playtime. Leadership roles are elected position by the characters in each organization.
Staff can remove karma and undo any damage by abuse, so it's ultimately less work.
As the game develops guild options can be added, combat can be fleshed out. Alien races can be implemented. Factions can be conceived or even a game level antagonists. Fighter ships, pilots, zombie virus, radiation, stun guns, etc...
Once you have the backbone for RP, good policy that's fair, then the game will do very well so long as you are not a massive massive dick. The setting doesn't fucking matter. The fancy combat code doesn't need be fancy. You don't even need to code amour at first; just get the ball rolling and magic will happen.
You need cultural documentation for the new race... Request it from the players and pick your favorite.
These are games we play together, quit being such petty birches.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jun 3, 2018 20:17:27 GMT -5
Many people who wish for the game to die forever, like they say here, have been posting consistently on this board for, what, years now. I think it's because, well, if they don't play, then it's because the game DOES mean something to them and they are frustrated because of matters varying in degrees of severity. If they didn't care at all, they would play Fortnite, or League of Legends, or whatever, and never give ArmageddonMUD a minute's thought again ever in their lives. Personally, I do not want ArmageddonMUD to die. It is 2018, and I've played it since 1999. Longer than some players have been alive, probably. What I do want... is continued improvement on the relations front. I do not want staff to give people REASONS to come here tell some horrible story about what happened to them. People are not perfect, though, so it will continue to happen to some degree, and it is good that there is a place to take it to when it happens: namely, here. What I don't like to see is senseless toxicity. With that shit, credible arguments and points brought up here are detracted from. Fortunately, there have been some credible points brought up here which have helped the game, but trying to hack away at the amount of people playing, well, I don't think it's for the best. There is a distinction between legitimate criticism and rancor with intent of destruction, and we should just be mindful of that. Nah. Anyone who's playing a game they're dissatisfied with, and is agitating for change while doing jack-shit to change it is either an addict, a simpleton, or both. Yeah, that's some toxic shit, but guess what: these idiots deserve toxicity if they're convinced that they can do nothing long enough and the game will suddenly magically change on its own, for the better. The game only has a chance of changing when people walk away and staff get to see those numbers drop. Those numbers are all they've ever given a fuck about for a long, long time. Those voting campaigns and monthly assessments of new players? They were all to get votes, and in turn, get new players. If they cared about keeping old players they would be changing their game. But the focus is on new players. On tricking new people to fall for the scam that the old players are starting to see. |
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
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Post by julio on Jun 3, 2018 21:22:03 GMT -5
That's a good fucking point.
End game Armageddon, when you advance to the point of interacting with staff.
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Post by lyse on Jun 3, 2018 21:31:27 GMT -5
That’s when the cracks start showing.
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ibusoe
Clueless newb
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Post by ibusoe on Jun 16, 2018 18:04:05 GMT -5
Sure you can. You can't point out a Lizzie in another thread like a cancer to the game, then pretend everybody else is squeaky clean. There are plenty of other Lizzies and plenty of other bad behavior that stems from players. Lizzie just happens to be one of the more vocal ones. Shitty players gon' be shitty players. The problem is Arm isn't a game where they simply exist, it's a game where they thrive and have done so for so long that it's a part of the game. Lyse does some of the best commentary and analysis of the problems associated with the game out of anyone. Lyse, I know that you're too busy IRL to run a MUD or anything, but I hope that you take a swing at it one day. A Lyse-run MUD would be one of the better balanced, most engaging games if you were able to turn some of your ideas from satire to immersive fiction. I think that's a valid point, and to that I'll add the fact that Arm Staff seem to have done a passable job of promoting people that don't understand their own weight. Frankly? I think that little fifteen year old nerd-boys can make the best Templars, but they need to learn early on to pull their punches. Lots of the high-ranking players never seemed to grasp the fact that 90% of the player activity would fall well below the threshold of notice. House Borsail...really shouldn't care what the Guild is up to on a Wednesday night. I'm not convinced that it's not staff. I think that due to the inevitable fact that most staff members will be spending a large amount of invisible effort trying to jockey their individual pet projects (you would too), they're going to find like 80% of the stuff that individual players want to do in the game annoying. Bland, non-threatening personalities rise to the top. Staff are responsible for not promoting more interesting, less predictable players/characters. It simply takes maturity. I get that, and to that I'd like to add that when I tried to engage staff, they almost never seemed to understand what I was trying to accomplish. In their imagination, I was always trying to vie for power, break the game or screw other players. If I was trying to grow ten ginka fruit, they accused me of trying to start a farm. I think clans would have to go for things to get better. The clans are at the center of the inertia that makes the game so conservative. Nothing changes, and if you suggest that the geo-political environment should shift some way, or *could* shift some way, ten naysayers insist that some clan or other would react instinctively to prevent that change. Usually these people are wrong but it's enough opposition that the staff, who are terrible at time management, simply shrug and table the discussion. Yeah, and here is where I think this becomes the player's fault. We don't have the playerbase to support the spy-vs.-spy atmosphere that people think that they want. Conflict should be shifted to take place between people who are real life friends. Instead people use their game avatars to hunt down and thwart characters/plots associated with rival cabals. Many grudge matches take place because people have conflicting ideas about game culture. |
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Post by lyse on Jun 16, 2018 20:44:05 GMT -5
Lyse does some of the best commentary and analysis of the problems associated with the game out of anyone. Lyse, I know that you're too busy IRL to run a MUD or anything, but I hope that you take a swing at it one day. A Lyse-run MUD would be one of the better balanced, most engaging games if you were able to turn some of your ideas from satire to immersive fiction. I would staff a game, but I'd leave the day to day stuff to the "pros." I'm convinced now, that a more modern game needs to be built. The setting is fine, but it just can't be built on an engine from the 90's. Gaming has just progressed to far for a DIKU based game to be viable anymore. I think that's a valid point, and to that I'll add the fact that Arm Staff seem to have done a passable job of promoting people that don't understand their own weight. Frankly? I think that little fifteen year old nerd-boys can make the best Templars, but they need to learn early on to pull their punches. Lots of the high-ranking players never seemed to grasp the fact that 90% of the player activity would fall well below the threshold of notice. House Borsail...really shouldn't care what the Guild is up to on a Wednesday night. It's funny you mentioned pulling punches. That's a problem both players and staff have. It's rare to see someone pull back from doing something really, ridiculously....too much. Part of it is your only two options are kill dude or ignore dude. High ranking players SHOULD be able to interact with lower ranking players, but it shouldn't be stomp dude or shit on dude as much as it is either. I'm not convinced that it's not staff. I think that due to the inevitable fact that most staff members will be spending a large amount of invisible effort trying to jockey their individual pet projects (you would too), they're going to find like 80% of the stuff that individual players want to do in the game annoying. Bland, non-threatening personalities rise to the top. Staff are responsible for not promoting more interesting, less predictable players/characters. It simply takes maturity. Oh no, that definitely exists, I've seen it multiple times over the years. I'm meaning more in the sense that a lot of people are afraid to take the lead in certain things. By certain things, I mean day to day things like going from 'nak to Luirs or hunting the tembo or what have you, things that don't need staff intervention. That's because if you're in a moderately sized group there will always be one or two players that are ready to pounce if you take a wrong turn at the menhir. They already know what to do, but instead of helping said leader, they just sit back and wait for the fuck up so they can go "Aha! I knew it! You suck!" It has more to do with the "Gotchas!" players throw out there, that are shitty to new or learning players. It's a player culture thing, but it has to do with maturity on the players part too. I get that, and to that I'd like to add that when I tried to engage staff, they almost never seemed to understand what I was trying to accomplish. In their imagination, I was always trying to vie for power, break the game or screw other players. If I was trying to grow ten ginka fruit, they accused me of trying to start a farm. I'm with you there. My thing is, it depends on what kind of staff you have. Some staff would be willing to work with you on planting some trees and then some staff will shut you down. It's that inconsistency that's really frustrating. With every new character, you're rolling the dice as to what is possible for you, what their vision for an org is and that really shouldn't be the case at all. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do something like that, it adds to the game, which is why it should be allowed. I think clans would have to go for things to get better. The clans are at the center of the inertia that makes the game so conservative. Nothing changes, and if you suggest that the geo-political environment should shift some way, or *could* shift some way, ten naysayers insist that some clan or other would react instinctively to prevent that change. Usually these people are wrong but it's enough opposition that the staff, who are terrible at time management, simply shrug and table the discussion. I think it depends on what kind of game you're talking about. If you were talking about a game where everybody is starting from day one, yeah. You build your own org and a whole lot of things suddenly make sense, like warehouses, etc. That's why I'm a big fan of episodic story arcs, the ability for things to change are built into that idea. The way the game is now, orgs are very necessary because they're in the fabric of the game. The problem is, they won already. So apping in a family member....what is there for you to do really? That's why I'm a fan of a clan goals system. Just a general outline of what the org is trying to accomplish at the moment and what you as a junior member (let's not kid ourselves that's what you'd be) can do to help accomplish that. Once it's accomplished, take that one off and add a new one. They should deal with economic, combat and clandestine themes so that any type of player would have something to contribute. That's why I'm not a fan of "Send us your app, you can do what you want except....everything you wanted to do. Keep guessing until you hit on something we'd be willing to do for you." That's why clans are in an inertia. They put up a cool ad for a sponsored role and you have no idea what they're trying to accomplish with it. Yeah, and here is where I think this becomes the player's fault. We don't have the playerbase to support the spy-vs.-spy atmosphere that people think that they want. Conflict should be shifted to take place between people who are real life friends. Instead people use their game avatars to hunt down and thwart characters/plots associated with rival cabals. Many grudge matches take place because people have conflicting ideas about game culture. I don't see too much wrong with a spy-vs-spy atmosphere. I'm not sure what you mean by conflict should be shifted to take place between people who are real life friends. I think most players are PvP adverse, with the broken nature of the game mechanics, people confusing an unfair game with an unfair world and the grindy nature of the game, it's understandable. I'd feel some type of way if a character I spent 30 real life days roleplaying playing got snuffed out suddenly by some dood that has a chain of macros cued up complete with emotes aliased to 'pvp'. I'm ok with dying, I'm ok with pvp to an extent, but that shouldn't be what the game is about 100%....or even 50%. What needs to happen is some kind of alternative needs to be layered in there where death is still a possibility, but a lot of the OOC is taken out of it. I think people DO want that kind of atmosphere, it's just that..the game doesn't really support it. All that would take is some kind of instancing system, put that together with the Clan Goals thing I was talking about and we're getting warmer. So here's a scenario: You're in a clan who's goal is to take Tyn Dashra. As a sponsored role, you know what you're trying to accomplish. You need to levy some troops (you have to role play that...you really have to recruit) You have to lead them to Tyn Dashra and you have to fight. Another sponsored role's job is to raise money, food, supplies (You have to roleplay that). Another Sponsored Role is clandestine stuff, hiring spies, assassins, being social (You have to roleplay that). The other clan is doing the same thing, except they're defending Tyn Dashra. Fast forward a couple of months....yeah a couple of months (in those couple of months anything can happen). The battle's ready to start. You lead your dudes to Tyn Dashra...make camp out in the wastes...more roleplay happens, camp life stuff. Patrols, recon....camp followers, D-elves the whole thing. Now the battle, this is the crescendo event. There's no PvP yet, it's an instance. You're facing the other faction, but they're all NPCs. The other faction is also facing you, but they're facing NPCs too. While you're fighting the NPCs you're trying to accomplish XYZ. Depending on the outcome of XYZ any number of things can happen. For people that like PvP, let's say goal Z is a conflicting goal for both factions that allows a PvP scenario. Who ever wins the majority of their objectives wins the battle of Tyn Dashra. Now imagine a game filled with those types of things, things going on all the time. That's just a part of an episode in a whole arc. Once everybody completes (succeed or fail) the clan goals, the arc ends and depending on what happens the outcomes would effect what happens in the next episode. I'm not sure if staff does something like this behind the scenes. But make it accessible for everybody playing to be able to see those outcomes. They have a website and forums that nobody ever uses, people should be communicating all the time on them. They have tools where players of X rank can make a camp already. I haven't mentioned anything that isn't doable in the game currently or would require much more coding. Mobs? All that takes is to plop them down with varying difficulty. It sounds like a fun game to me, that's the kind of game I would LOVE to play. I came to the realization Armageddon will never be that kind of game. That kind of game hasn't been built yet. |
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