deadelf
staff puppet account
Posts: 44
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Post by deadelf on Jun 22, 2017 18:27:43 GMT -5
Silentlamb - I think you use too broad a brush. I've never had a problem with staff. Not Nyr or anyone. All my memories of Arm are good ones and I don't differentiate between X hates Y and Y hates X. People have to fart. People seem to have to hate. That's life and I don't waste time on problems I can't solve. Anyway, I pity the next face of the GDB.
I think Arm is fine in spite of the wishes of some here. Many times in the past when they would get loudest here, I would go make a character just to have a red shirt in the game. And it was hitting around 30 during the daytime minipeak just last week. In other words, I wouldn't get too worked up about what is happening over here. The game will be fine.
On the other hand, it is no longer the game that I was interested in. I preferred a world where I did not know or care if the person at the other keyboard was male/female/gay/bi/black/white/yellow. A fantasy world that had no meaning or relationship to the real world. But now because of some lousy roleplayer, I'm supposed to map neckers to real world insults. I'm supposed to see what, the Rinth as the moral equivalent of minorities in NYC? No thanks.
I didn't lose my desire to ever see that place again because of Nergal's outburst. It's because of players that have to stick their real world problems into the game. I'm out, I'll be gone from here soon and nobody will hear from me again.
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
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Post by punished ppurg on Jun 22, 2017 18:44:44 GMT -5
I'm some brown nosing staff apologist silentlamb — You simply disgust me. I don't know why you take a swing at Grumble when he hasn't been allowed on the GDB in the longest time. He's even banned from the Discord.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Jun 22, 2017 18:53:09 GMT -5
TBH, Deadelf, I am somewhat on the fence regarding the language change where calling someone a pussy, bitch or a dick is dissalowed. For a long time certain RL gender norms and perceptions regarding everything from sexual preference to character traits pertaining to gender have crept their way into IC despite the objections outlined in the quickstart guide. I think it would have been wise of them to DISCUSS the change with the playerbase BEFORE dropping it on them, and explored possible alternative measures, maybe with an opinion poll, but that's not how it was presented, and naturally there was some backlash from those who felt their perspectives count for something to. All this is connected to the big picture of behavior patterns that many find to be unhealthy. This has been the custom for some time now, and can't be pointed directly at Nergal, but needs to change.
So I'm not entirely against the removal of language that creates a sort of IC leaning toward anachronistic viewpoints.
I am, however, completely baffled by the removal of the slang word for elf.
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Post by jcarter on Jun 22, 2017 18:55:49 GMT -5
Nice wordfilter too. Changing Ner.gal to "Noted Liar Noted Liar Noted Liar Nergal" is hardly helping matters and is just pushing people's buttons. the filter has been in place for months now, after nergal got caught lying multiple times and locked his thread to save face. re: helping matters, why would anyone possibly think i'm interested in "helping matters"? i have as much concern for arm, the staff, and the pbase as they have for me -- absolutely zero. i'm just here to shoot the shit and laugh.
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Jun 22, 2017 18:58:02 GMT -5
The community is so toxic because staff drove away most of the players who just cared about the game. They're the ones who felt obligated to bring up the problems they saw and were consequently labeled dissenters and bullied out of the game by Nyr and his ilk. Nergal belongs to that ilk, and while I haven't played the game or really visited the GDB in over a year, his posts are quoted here often enough to conclude that much of the toxicity is still provoked by the staff.
The effect this has had on the game is pretty clear. You don't need to be playing to find out that the numbers are in the dumps, because the few people I know who still play can't stop mentioning it. The game isn't dead, but when it can barely break 30 at 8pm, things aren't going well. It's quite clear that there's more wrong with the game than just the attitudes of the players. While too many of the remaining ones are the type of self-serving gobshites who sat through the first waves of staff assholery because they saw the opportunity to earn brown-nose points by wilfully blind sycophancy, these players aren't the main cause of people leaving the game. They're a symptom of the cause.
Staff have painted themselves into a corner. They alienated so many of the people who simply loved Armageddon that they're now dealing with those who didn't love it enough to tell Nyr et al. to go fuck themselves; and that's not a pleasant bunch of people to deal with because they're not going to be frank and forthright with you, they're going to be the conniving cunts that they proved themselves to be. Even if staff's attitudes have been blunted somewhat, they're ultimately the reason the community has grown so toxic, and it's not as though people like Nergal have been paragons of leadership in any case. Some of the shit he has spewed in the last year has been downright vile, not to mention wildly dishonest (hence the somewhat cringy nameswap.)
Compounding this is the fact that they've been pushing some really controversial changes into the game without asking if anyone wants it. The magicker subguilds were particularly mindboggling, and while I appreciate that their karma revamp is phrased as a proposal, I wouldn't count on them changing their minds regardless of the feedback they receive. They've long had a policy of doing whatever they damn well please, and so they can't act too surprised if the playerbase is starting to get fed up with them, especially after they hounded so many of the game's caring veterans out of the community. They set themselves up for that.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Jun 22, 2017 19:03:29 GMT -5
I, for one, think the karma revamp COULD be a good thing, but if they keep the old standards for rewarding it, then all they've effectively done is shorten the number of steps up the staircase by making the steps a hell of a lot bigger, which really solves nothing.
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Jun 22, 2017 19:29:54 GMT -5
I, for one, think the karma revamp COULD be a good thing, but if they keep the old standards for rewarding it, then all they've effectively done is shorten the number of steps up the staircase by making the steps a hell of a lot bigger, which really solves nothing. It could be a good thing, but the way it's presented, I don't think the actual outcome will be what they profess to aim for. One of the main selling points is to allow more players to reach high karma, but with psionicists/sorcerers taken out of the karma system, muls/HGs generally undesirable to most, and elementalists reduced to subguilds that barely resemble their former selves, the actual purpose of high karma is now mostly for extended subguilds. And the good ones are now at the higher end of the karma scale. It's clear that the net result will be that the worthwhile extended subguilds will be more exclusive, creating an even more obvious gulf between characters. To get something like Outdoorsman or Protector, you'll now have to have two out of a maximum three karma. Surely two karma will now be relatively higher than it was under the 1-8 scale. With criteria like "at least 1.5 year of regular play" to move from 1 to 2, making it an absolute bare minimum of two years of regular play to reach 2, and a new rule that seems to require karma review requests in order to be considered, I've no doubt that actually getting a point of karma will take much more time and effort than it did before. It's a strengthening of the haves vs. have-nots that was introduced with the special subguilds. The regeneration timers are also incredibly steep. Upwards of six months to recover what you spent means yet more cause for players to consider quitting. If you roll up a Fire Agony dude and die after a month, you're at zero karma for another two fucking months, and won't be back at 3 for five months. Considering how worthless zero-karma characters are these days for anything beyond socialites, it's easy to see how a player might just choose to take a long break instead, and long breaks have a tendency to become departures, especially considering the increasingly aging playerbase. Does the game in its current state really need more things that'll compel people to abandon it? I remember back in the day earning two karma in my first year, and that was such a big deal for my retention as a player because it meant I had access to most of what I had any real interest in. Now, you're looking at a minimum of two years of regular play to get access to the subguilds that let you create warriors and rangers that aren't second-rate specimen. And if you make one and die too quickly, you're back to basics for months. I don't see how that won't cost them players. Even many who approve of the new system will then experience this and feel discouraged. You cannot implement one change that makes zero-karma characters feel worthless and then another that forces people to play them often. The karma change would probably be fine if it only concerned mages and races. The extended subguilds and their influence on the character economy creates a lot of problems that aren't acknowledged enough. When your mundane character's power and potential can be increased so much by taking the right ext-subguild, playing one without them feels like crap and people aren't very invested in these characters. This leads to disinterest and a lack of ambition which can be seen quite plainly in-game if you know what you're looking for.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Jun 22, 2017 19:48:00 GMT -5
You can still rock some basic subguilds, though. They're not obsolete, there's some damn good combos depending on starting area and what you want to achieve, such as red storm merchant/tailor merchant/armorcrafter or any other combo with thosse, really. You won't be the BEST, but you don't really have to be to catch your enemies with their pants down.
Ranger/thief, to my knowlege, still works, as does city-sneaky/outlaw/hunter. Ranger/protector IS sort of a big deal, but one arrow to the neck and all that can be reduced to nothing in seconds, or a well-timed backstab or thrown dagger... which leads into your next point, the regen times ARE steep, and that could use some twinking. Magickers can't run around ALWAYS spelled up unless they're a serious wank and avoid certain places like the plague. Warrior/bounty hunter is also pretty potent.
Then there's the time taken to get the karma in the first place, and the dependance upon a subjective analysis of your role play, which may make such impossible if you're not someone under the scrutinizing eye of staff (and hopefully it's favorable)... so yes it looks like playing a mul will become more reasonably accessable, which I'm sure there are several players who will be grateful for that, but other options are put even further out of reach, as you said, @ot. Some are too worried about the level of trust needed for certain non-sponsored sub-guilds and I really do not see the need for that much. It creates too much of a barrier for newer players and those attempting to recover from a breach of ettiquette, or otherwise accidently arousing staff ire. People just want to explore content and character concepts, they just want to play the damn game, and these barriers for entry are more than a bit discouraging.
Sorcs and psionicists, I'm unsure about. I know psions are scary as HECK, and nothing to be trifled with. New sorcs are probably scary too, but I don't know what skills they have so they may or may not be just as plot-breaking. A well placed, skilled psion can knock your shit out of the air before it even gets reasonably clear of the ground, so I can understand the need for a larger degree of trust there.
EDIT: Also, they're opening it for discussion BEFORE pushing it through, which is progress.
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Jun 22, 2017 19:57:50 GMT -5
The extended subguilds add so much power to combat characters that nothing else can compensate for it. This proverbial arrow to the neck is much less likely to befall you if your ranger has access to master shield use, for instance, or if your warrior has master hide. I don't really care about merchants, people don't play these with coded power in mind and merchant characters almost never matter in the grand scheme of things; at least not in any way that pertains to code and skillsets. Non-combat characters very rarely affect plots and conflict unless they're sponsored.
The fact of the matter is that extended subguilds play a huge part in a combat character's potential, and any change that takes the option away from people who had already earned it and forces them to play something less for long periods of time is a change that's almost guaranteed to lead to some loss of players. That's a really bad idea for Armageddon at this point in time. It's the opposite of what they need.
edit for tangent: The new sorcs are actually total garbage that aren't worth the cost. The only thing that made sorcs viable was the fact that they had access to nearly all spells and were thus able to get away with being sorcs. Characters that are universally kill-on-sight and can't really exist inside any society are basically unplayable when you have to pick one school of spells to use. The new sorcs turned out to be even weaker than the pre-revamp elementalists and virtually nobody played sorcs since the change, effectively removing the world's #1 antagonists from the game.
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dunebum
Clueless newb
Smells like beer and sweat
Posts: 108
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Post by dunebum on Jun 22, 2017 21:28:15 GMT -5
Thread is kind of getting off topic here.
Do you think ArmageddonMUD should or should not open source its code?
Why or why not?
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Jun 22, 2017 21:42:45 GMT -5
I don't think it'd help much, honestly, although it couldn't hurt. There's like, three versions of Hellmoo floating out around there and it still gets played, oh, and there's an RP version based off the codebase with a different setting in the works, still in pre-alpha. What people really want, as someone else has stated, is the NPCs, the setting, the rooms, descs, items, besically like a clone, or a split off shard. It's been tried before but it wasn't taken well, possibly because it was straight up stolen. It could help in that it could give people who've offended staff a place to play the game they enjoy, instead of getting way more pissed off than they should that they were wrongfully banned and making a big deal out of it. This could backfire, but I think the chances would be in their favor it wouldn't. Plus, code developments could be shared back and forth, if mixing and matching is possible with DIKU (unsure, not a coder). So all in all, I'd say, it could definitely benefit them.
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ibusoe
Clueless newb
Posts: 176
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Post by ibusoe on Jun 22, 2017 21:54:44 GMT -5
Nice wordfilter too. Changing Ner.gal to "Noted Liar Noted Liar Noted Liar Noted Liar Nergal" is hardly helping matters and is just pushing people's buttons. EDIT: To add to all I've said, constantly claiming the game is dying is not helping either. People have been saying the game is dying since I joined in 2013. It has had its ups and downs, but it has not been till very recently (I've just come back from a 9 month hiatus) I've noticed a decline in players. It's likely temporary (who knows?), but the constant pessimism just drives off new players more so than staff's actions. Take a look at the earliest posts on this forum from 2013, they're all "THE GAME IS DEAD! DOOM AND GLOOM!" On the other hand, I'm glad that you're here. While I don't agree with practically anything you've said, your presence here is what helps to prevent these boards from becoming an echo chamber. I tend to find this board, despite it's ostensibly lawless nature, to be positively civil compared to the GDB. Please understand that if our gang were to make an appearance over on the GDB, we'd be treated considerably worse than you you're being treated here. I don't think anyone here dislikes you to the extent that you think we do. You were annoying when you weren't actively making any effort to be pleasant, but now that you appear to be actively working around your personal issues I find you to be downright palatable. This isn't the GDB where posting one or two controversial things will cause people to hate you for years.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jun 23, 2017 16:20:04 GMT -5
What is killing arm is the community, people are on a constant witch hunt to blame staff for all their woes. Dwindling player numbers are players' fault. Sure, let's pretend that makes sense for a hot minute. How did staff wind up banning and driving off everyone else? I believe what people want is Arm's code AND content, so they can just throw it on a server and have their own running copy. They've been building on stock DIKU since the early 90's. A lot of love and passion has gone into adding features, scripts, and other cool things that do not exist elsewhere. It would be cool to see other game worlds built with the codebase and all of them sharing the same git respository. Updates from one could go to another. I could easily see it becoming the de facto RPI codebase simply due to the emote code. If you really don't want Arm's content, I will say you can probably create the handful of original features in Arm in a better codebase.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2017 20:33:48 GMT -5
Staff have been fine to work with for the last while, and have been far from unreasonable for at least the last year. People have been acting toxic towards them since the departure of Nyr, resulting in a rather unpleasant interaction with staff in return. Constantly pushing someone (staff members) will result in them getting burned out and fed up (see Noted Liar Noted Liar Noted Liar Noted Liar Nergal). Unless that's the reaction you're looking for to push some sort of anti-arm agenda, you shouldn't act so surprised when it happens. People have been coming to the GDB acting snarky and generally shitty (in my own view) towards staff (e.g. gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52596.0.html) and then act even shittier when this approach gets them completely shut down. I'm very happy to give examples of staff being exceptionally reasonable towards myself in requests and even supporting me (shock! They've let me go ahead with plots requiring staff support! - which I can't currently share due to the 1 year rule (wait till october and I may if reminded)). Before people try to say I'm some sort of special snowflake or staff puppet, I've been PERMA banned from the game previously, until staff got so fed up with me returning on alt accounts (I got banned for multiplaying about 3 years ago) they cut me a deal after I offered them a genuine apology, and I've since gotten a few karma and everything. What is killing arm is the community, people are on a constant witch hunt to blame staff for all their woes. Some is warranted, but keep in mind many in staff who have wronged people have since left (e.g. Nyr, who many people have an issue with) but other people (Grumble comes to mind) are completely at fault and probably mentally unhinged. It shouldn't come as a surprise when staff lash out after the level of abuse I've seen them get here. Like, they're people too, you know? I don't want to seem like I'm some brown nosing staff apologist, (Well I am defending them here), but this community is certainly not helping matters. What would really help ARM right now, would be for people to try and settle their differences with staff, or simply ignore anything not too detrimental to their gameplay (deduction of karma/whatever) and play the game. I'd like the game to recover. I personally make an effort to praise their efforts when praise is due, and offer constructive criticism when I can. I sometimes over-react, because I do not suffer being slapped by people who think themselves above participation in a conversation. I've restarted my play twice in the last four years. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is and be part of a solution. Allow me to offer a different take on what is killing arm. Some of the staff have offered repeat insult and whitewashed all of their failures from the historical record as best they could. I have no problem with a volunteer team not being perfect, but to say they are perfect and have nothing to gain from a constructive dialogue is fairly silly. I am sure that most of the people here who "act badly" didnt start at toxic. They are passionate enough to try to improve a hobby we have all spent several thousand hours on. A specific example: I can only think of one time the power balance of the extended subguilds have been discussed. When it was, a staff member asked for my feedback and then point blank told me I had no idea what I was talking about. I'd only been playing the character over 40 days in game time, and I'm one of those people who have had almost two hundred characters over at least three accounts. I know something about the game system. If you dont care about what I think, dont ask. If you want my opinion, dont insult me. If you want to have the revamp of the karma system take less than years, open a dialogue and test server, and let the worthy constituency help. Its neither here nor there, but one of the GDBers who is among the loudest opponents of this shadow community is the person who handed me the game map, all skill trees, all spell combinations and components, etc. That person has at least five karma, and is regularly hypocritical. From a different source I've also been passed a spreadsheet, allegedly from a staffer, who documented all of the wisdom timers, per race, per score. As far as I can tell from testing, they are correct. My suggestion is consistency and common dialogue. If staff have truly stopped insulting people and breaking their own rules, I think the game will rebound.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Jun 23, 2017 21:03:43 GMT -5
I find most of you simply disgusting.
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