grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 11, 2017 14:06:45 GMT -5
It would be a lie to say that some deaths didn't turn me into a rage spewing bitchy shittard... and I will admit staff was patient with me in some of those scenarios. I didn't originally come to these boards to post. I didn't view it as cheating to wonder what skills a guild will start with, or what skills a subguild allot. I was mostly enjoying the game without being angry at anyone and then a sponsored role walks in on his first day on the job and murders me, I forget the exact circumstances, or whether it was justified or not, but it left a foul taste in my mouth (eyes BCW warily). I wasn't sure what to do, but I knew I was upset about it. Apparently, he did a really smash-up job as a Byn Sarge but I didn't want to be anywhere near it because I felt my resentment over that would come out, so I vowed not to join the Byn again until Sefaj was gone, and, indeed, tried to stay as far away from his character as possible (not always possible, I think one of my breeds bought him a few drinks once, and my half-giant called him a naughty little man and waved his club threateningly, Chuckem was a big fan of ropes and, more than one character has been "shown the ropes" quite literally, and he blamed the Sergeant for not giving Armali a rope to get out of the hole, after seeing Sefaj lecture her for falling in the hole in the first place)...
Well, rambling aside I sent Sefaj kudos, even though I was butthurt for quite a while over it. But the doubt had set in, seeing that staff would put in a position of power a person who would kill a useful ally first day on the job (actually, the CHARACTER had had the job for years, but walked into a bunch of unknown qualities) made me ponder, how common was this?
I'd had the privelege of working for characters run by players who had worked their way up the ladder, I had taken this for granted up until then. Well, I knew where I could read up on some juicy dirt. I read it warily, doubtingly, questioning to myself the validity of each account. I began to note the qualities possessed by those posting on the boards, and became interested in just shooting the shit with them, but didn't want to give myself away, so I started shitposting with the most atrocious spelling, grammar, and punctuation as possible...
For a long time, I observed patterns in the game, while being a snarky troll to other members here in as few words as I could possibly use (which is something I've regretted for a while, apologies to anyone I was needlessly rude to). I began to experience more OOC negativity in game from staff and sponsored roles, not really trying to invite it, but I began to see what people here were posting about. I began to understand, personally, why they seemed so angry and bitter, as well as to accept that maybe everything I saw here was not some paranoid conspiracy. I still loved the game, but I was like, ugh, these people in power understand strategy about as well as a ham sandwich that once read "The Prince" (admittedly, this is not unique to Armageddon, it's everywhere). Eventually, I got jaded with Arm or something, so I went to play another RPI and experienced even worse judgemental negativity, and dropped the annoying to type text-filter (don't worry about it, it's not relevant to the topic and I don't feel like getting into it)...
But communication problems, kneejerk decisions and reactions from staff as well as the "in crowd", poring over that festering cesspit of sutble bile that is the GDB, I started to realize, these people were all horrible trolls... this is the internet, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Had some bad interactions with Nyr (who I hear is actually a pretty cool dude, but that is not my experience, nor the experience of many using these boards)... Armageddon and it's community and cliquish groups, in a very major way, fed these boards, over years, by refusing to adopt a more people-friendly policy in OOC interactions, which, the veil of secrecey being what it is, is much more difficult to get away with on other games.
tl;dr,secrecy, staff, and players who are OOCly snide pricks, drove me here. What is it with RPIs not coming with a sensible manual? If they hadn't been such horrible, hypocritical, vaguebooking pricks (my early characters got vaguebooked on the GDB a lot and the response was usually, kill them for not adhering to the docs, which, I actually WAS adhering to what I'd read), then these boards probably wouldn't exist because there'd be nothing to get frothingly pissy about.
I'm no saint (nor should I be expected to be one), I've done things I shouldn't have too. At times I have most definitely been the source of my own problem, and at times, with a hasty, snap decision based on an incorrect perception of what was actually going on, I've done some stupid things. So don't think I won't admit to being a scumbag too... this, however, does not invalidate my perception, and I put some effort into not being a scumbag, but, as with life, and with everyone, it's a work in progress that's never finished. I don't like to observe stagnation, or regression, however, in this process, particularly when it's willful ignorance, on my part or anyone else's, which the ongoing pattern with the way players are handled seems to have been in regression for quite some time.
But I'm not staff, there's no way I'd ever WANT to staff a game. Staff are held to a higher standard, and they should be, as should anyone who holds a position of power over others, whether their enjoyment of a game, or their real life.
And, at the end of the rant, I will state that I respect staff's policy of not making a player's details and request history public, provided it's not being used as a rug to sweep things under. If the player consents to it then it should be fair game, for at least the part that's relevant to the subject at hand. I wouldn't consent to it, though I did post my account notes here in full.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 11, 2017 14:32:32 GMT -5
Oh, by the way, does anyone remember the tale of Kronibas and a certain staffer who made some vicious, deceptive secret notes on his account that haunted him for years? I don't think bringing her name up does much good, but that's just another example of why people DO NOT trust staff.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Mar 11, 2017 15:45:39 GMT -5
If anyone pretends not to remember Kronibus' story to see if we can get a retelling of it, I will find them IRL and push my thumbs into their brain by way of their eyes.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 11, 2017 16:05:03 GMT -5
Huh? What did staff do to Kronibas? *whistles innocently* (the answer is, what didn't happen?)
But things like that happen. There are secret notes only the admins can see. To my understanding you'll never know they're on there until you find yourself getting viciously smited and banned for things like, spamcrafting or, OooOOOoooo, using the cooking pits in the Gaj. I could be mistaken about that, I do know they talk about players amongst themselves, it's like talking about someone who isn't there, they can't really defend themselves, and the blind trust they seem to put in eachother and the tendancey to circle the wagons...
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Post by sirra on Mar 11, 2017 16:07:52 GMT -5
how every single thread like this goes: -random showboarder makes thread for discussion. -usual suspects chime in about how shadowboard is ugh just the worst. -usual suspects chime in about how they only read the shadowboard that one time and it was so terrible, they don't ever read it it's so bad. -someone suggests that maybe the board is not made up of completely fabricated incidents. -Noted Liar Nergal/nyr comes out and says well maybe there was some incidents in the past but things are great now. -player points out incident. -Noted Liar Nergal/nyr/other staff sweep it under rug, under guise it's IC if it's recent or it's too long ago if otherwise. -another player points out another incident. -Noted Liar Nergal/nyr/other staff sweep it under rug, same bullshit pretenses. -people realize that staff actually never accepts responsibility, Noted Liar Nergal/nyr goes 'REEEEEEEE' and locks thread. -years later, people realize those staffers were full of shit. we've gone through this cycle many times. i remember when sanvean was talking about how it wasn't anything like the old days...and then halaster and naionia got caught being twinky as hell. then nyr was the putz of the week who responded to this stuff, everything was ok, blah blah blah. then it turns out apparently most of staff hated him yet didn't do shit, and he would do shit like have a psionicist LIVING IN TULUK and keep her undetected by never giving a single hint because of thinks, feels, or any information in their biography about BEING A PSIONICIST. and now Noted Liar Nergal is back out here, oh hey fellas no that stuff is long in the past. except he gets called out multiple times for flat out lying, back pedals like a moron, and skitters back under the rock he came out of. no one thinks there's a staff-wide conspiracy. they just continue to think that staff don't give two shits about complaints...like people said in the thread. here's what everyone thinks happened: one staff member was inappropriate with their animations. they may or may not have liked anaiah...it's really irrelevant, either way the behavior was agreed upon by most people as inappropriate. anaiah did what she was supposed to and submitted a request. Noted Liar Nergal covered their ass - either because he's the type of person who doesn't like admitting fault (demonstrated multiple times in that thread), wanted to protect the staff member, didn't like anaiah himself, or some combination of which. For all the sins that Sanvean, Naiona and Halaster were guilty of, they were pretty much the last batch of staffers that cared about broadening Armageddon's playerbase and having fun with the game. They were invested in it being fun, because they were playing it to have fun. And then when they stopped caring, and moved onto other fun things, they did the goddamn most decent thing they ever did and WALKED AWAY. But like I've said in a previous post. The whole Armageddon 2.0 saga really destroyed the staff culture of the game (and mortally injured the player culture at that). It just turned apathy and the status quo into the norm, even though 'no new things' began as a temporary expedient. |
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Post by sirra on Mar 11, 2017 16:14:54 GMT -5
As for Qoriya and the plots... she actually didn't break any rules, and was fully in line with the IC outline for what someone of her guild and social status with her job position should be doing. Was it terrible and extremely destructive to players plots, and actual intrigue in the north? Yes, 1000%, hands down, without a doubt. That is not, however, doing a bad job or breaking rules playing a Lirathan Templar. That is playing a Lirathan Templar to the hilt. The guild and niche and role itself were terrible for the game and any sort of subversive activity. Lirathan Templars are one of the few things I thought were a very good decision to remove. The player can't be faulted for basically being an achiever and doing 'too well' at their really poorly designed job that they were sponsored into the game to do. That's on the people who created lirathans in the first place, imo. Qoriya was an amazing example of one of BFB's 'cliquey retards' or tavern sitters, RPing their way up the ranks through a number of harmless roles, before finally getting a role with amazing coded power. Then proceeding to use it to shit on everyone around her. ICly, albeit, but with a reckless kind've incomprehension at what adds to or detracts from the world around her. She hadn't learned the same fucking lesson, that many low karma PC raiders, thieves or criminals learn after only one or two characters. Her use of psionics was equivalent to some twinked out warrior just walking up to and butchering salt grebbers for no reason and with no interaction. She had no idea how to responsibly wield true power because she had never done so. She'd never had to earn it. Most mundane PCs who twinked their way to elite combat skills would often go out of their way to avoid fights, because they didn't want to lose what they'd worked so hard for. To be fair, most sorcs and mindbenders were like this too (owing to the sheer rarity of the roles when applied for by non-pets). 90% of the PKs on the mud came from gickers and noob templars. Qoriya would have been much less a cunt, doing her best to single-handedly keep people from playing in the same city as her, if she'd had even one stint as a mundane small unit leader. Something you would think should be a requirement and not a liability when seeking more advanced leadership roles. |
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Post by sirra on Mar 11, 2017 16:16:34 GMT -5
Yeah. Killing Dar's thread last night was shitty. This morning, metekillot made a trollish as hell post along the lines of mocking people, and it got deleted. The killing of Dar's attempt to seek out more information on what Noted Liar Noted Liar Nergal would've found 'not' offensive or 'trolly' using a quote from him was not opening up an old thread. It was asking for just what Noted Liar Noted Liar Nergal suggested, and for the parameters for how to do so. Metekillot on the other hand was pretty blatantly shitposting. That happens a lot on the GDB. It happened last time around too. Someone tries to start a honest discussion, and then one or two people start shitposting in it, or doing their best to derail and distract people with their stupid shit (like Liz), and then staff gets an excuse to lock it. |
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 11, 2017 16:31:15 GMT -5
As for Qoriya and the plots... she actually didn't break any rules, and was fully in line with the IC outline for what someone of her guild and social status with her job position should be doing. Was it terrible and extremely destructive to players plots, and actual intrigue in the north? Yes, 1000%, hands down, without a doubt. That is not, however, doing a bad job or breaking rules playing a Lirathan Templar. That is playing a Lirathan Templar to the hilt. The guild and niche and role itself were terrible for the game and any sort of subversive activity. Lirathan Templars are one of the few things I thought were a very good decision to remove. The player can't be faulted for basically being an achiever and doing 'too well' at their really poorly designed job that they were sponsored into the game to do. That's on the people who created lirathans in the first place, imo. Qoriya was an amazing example of one of BFB's 'cliquey retards' or tavern sitters, RPing their way up the ranks through a number of harmless roles, before finally getting a role with amazing coded power. Then proceeding to use it to shit on everyone around her. ICly, albeit, but with a reckless kind've incomprehension at what adds to or detracts from the world around her. She hadn't learned the same fucking lesson, that many low karma PC raiders, thieves or criminals learn after only one or two characters. Her use of psionics was equivalent to some twinked out warrior just walking up to and butchering salt grebbers for no reason and with no interaction. She had no idea how to responsibly wield true power because she had never done so. She'd never had to earn it. Most mundane PCs who twinked their way to elite combat skills would often go out of their way to avoid fights, because they didn't want to lose what they'd worked so hard for. To be fair, most sorcs and mindbenders were like this too (owing to the sheer rarity of the roles when applied for by non-pets). 90% of the PKs on the mud came from gickers and noob templars. Qoriya would have been much less a cunt, doing her best to single-handedly keep people from playing in the same city as her, if she'd had even one stint as a mundane small unit leader. Something you would think should be a requirement and not a liability when seeking more advanced leadership roles. Keep in mind, people who've had to EARN that shit and know what an investment it is tend to be a little more thoughtful with other players when deciding their fates. People who hop from sponsored role to sponsered role with coded and social power get really out of touch with what a dangerous slog that can be, and don't empathize as well with how utterly cheap and senseless it feels when the wrath of god comes down on you... just 'cuz, them's the breaks. EDIT: I have seen a psionic northern Templar be rather thoughtful with their power, both coded and socially, I am unsure what most were like, but I know a pattern when I see one... my second character was sentanced to die in the arena by an allanaki Templar. I won't say I wasn't bummed, but, he did at least interact with me some, in a memorable way, and while most of my PCs were either apathetic or hated him, I always remembered that as one of my cooler deaths, he even sent me kudos after he tossed my breed in the pit. |
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Post by sirra on Mar 11, 2017 16:55:00 GMT -5
Allanaki templars were often retards on power trips, but that was...I guess, all right, most of the time. They were kinda supposed to be incompetent idiots on power trips, so it never really hurt my immersion much to have them bumble-fucking around. A couple were great. The good ones usually died really quick, cause they were leading some expedition.
As for Tuluk...
The Jihaen templars were all right. I'd say about 95% of all the Jihaens I interacted with, were fine. I suspect this is because being a good Jihaen required a modicum of familiarity with sparring, training and combat mechanics. One or two of these guys was really special, though I forget his name (the stupid long lived one?).
Pretty much all of the Lirathans were horseshit. There might've been a couple that were basically harmless. But mostly they combined every worst aspect of the game into one role. A tavern sitting, gicker/mindbender/templar/noble who could read your mind and have their half-giant guards subdue and brutalize you on a whim.
They were a horrible, horrible idea and nothing good came of it. The only templars that the North should've had, should've been Jihaens.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 11, 2017 17:24:53 GMT -5
I do think Jihaen templars are quite scary enough on their own. Anyone who's been poked likely knows this. The Lirathans COULD have been awesome, but given how humanity tends to be raving, short-sighted shitlords, were doomed to go down in flames. I don't think they did away with psionic Templars with the unification of the orders, given my experiences with them, but I'm not entirely sure which bits they changed. I know I'd been jabbed in the throat by a female Templar who was annoyed with my Allanaki elf as she was just like, "STOP TALKING!" while we were in the Heart, which, I don't know what skill that checks but I'm pretty sure they have a death-poke too... but this was after the order "change". I'd heard there was a male psionicist Templar as well, but never saw him just tromping around wtfpwning even my nutty PCs. He was usually too busy leading badass expeditions and squinting at the Levies like they were a bunch of unclean savages. I do know he would look at people who hadn't seemingly said or done anything and ask them to stop doing that, and occassionally appear out of nowhere.
I think that sort of power, used by a player honestly trying to accomplish things and better the game as a whole, will refrain from dirtying their hands with such unclean work and choose means that COULD fail. I have seen Templars do this before, on both sides, and don't get me wrong, I wasn't bitching about the nakki Templar that killed me, quite the opposite. Oddly, I've not encountered much trouble with Templars beyond really disliking them and not trusting them because it's usually part of my role, while secretly wishing I could interact with them more. It's usually merchant house family members or nobles or the occassional Byn Sergeant, or Dust Runner, or Guild Leader, that I end up just looking at the screen and thinking, WTF? And not the ones who've worked their way into it, most of the time.
EDIT: Oh, and aides too. (sorry A Girl)... they tend to come straight out of chargen with beautiful descs, male or female, and bounce right into a position of power, because, that's what they meant to do. There are a number of exceptions, and there are some very good characters, but as it's an easy route to power, you encounter a lot of power-mad shitlords who jump right on it.
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A Girl
staff puppet account
"And what do you say to Staff?" "Not today."
Posts: 35 
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Post by A Girl on Mar 11, 2017 17:51:53 GMT -5
That's sort of a humanity being a walking dumpster fire thing, grumble, but I agree. I had a tendency post karma to bounce between aide and hunter, but, then, most of my aides got sabotaged or shit on. Apparently, when I had a pc who was just gone as I'd quit playing, there was even a templar who demanded to come in and search her footlocker -inside the noble estate- for contraband, over a tube of spice that had been there multiple IC years, as I would find out from reading what had happened on the Fale boards in the year and a half or so between them. Like... fucking seriously. Meh.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 11, 2017 18:03:51 GMT -5
Humanity ISN'T a walking dumpster fire? News to me. I can love them and not approve of them at the same time.
EDIT: Also, I know aides are a big-time spice consumer, especially when their Ladies and Lords give them special priveleges. Nobles also consume spice, they really do not have to answer to anyone, which is fine, given the setting... but this is also why players react badly to aides who spend too much time in the Gaj with echoes of breeds shitting on the floor, and then spit on the first elf they see and form vendettas against undesirables.
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Post by lyse on Mar 11, 2017 21:34:43 GMT -5
I'm curious: are you saying the culture of denial is the main thing killing Arm, or just contributing to its death? I had to shoot off to work when I wrote my first post in this thread. The second reason was the player-staff divide. I didn't get a chance to write about that one as much because I had to go. Denial is very much a part of the player-staff divide. So yes it's a contribution not the main thing. I intended to respond sooner, but holy shit this thread blew up. So a couple things have happened in the last couple of days that go right along with what I was saying. The first thing was the Reiloth thing. When you start denying a die hard like Reiloth...well, that says it all right there. He's what I call a core player, when they start dropping, you're getting close to a death spiral. When Lizzie has a meltdown, we're in the death throes of the game. Ok...he'll probably be back, core players seem to have the hardest time letting go of the game. Then the Anaiah A girl thing happens. I really don't know what to say there...wow. Was that really a staff animation in there? Was that a staff alt with the blowjob thing? I feel like that was a really hammy way to get someone to stop playing and it was lame. Then the blanket ban that nailed her husband...denial Bitter it's a culture of denial. The game has always had a "Frat boy" culture where if you're wearing a skirt that's cloth not armor, you're a whore. Or hell, if you play a girl, you're a whore. She got denied for playing a girl. I generally agree with most people there has been a culture change. But is that the real problem or have we just all gotten older and less amused? But this is also part of it. The game hasn't adapted well to an aging playerbase. Sure twenty year old me would roll with a ridiculous death, a staff oops, a fucked up, terse mail from a staffer. I WAS TWENTY! One year I only had class on Monday and Tuesday, guess what I did the rest of the week? Arm all the time. Forty year old me, with a son, a husband and a job....um not so much. I'm not going to take a staff oops, or walking into a deathroom, or a brush off with a few tears (Yes, I really cried after a character death when I was younger) and reapplying. My time is valuable too, just as valuable as a unpaid volunteer staff. So when I see a discussion board with little discussion of the game I'm playing, I feel like I'm wasting my time playing a character in a flat world, having flat discussions with staff....well, I'm going to spend my time doing something else, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Twenty year old me was ok with Overlords doing shitty things, Forty year old me....nah bruh, you got some explaining to do and it better be good too. |
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A Girl
staff puppet account
"And what do you say to Staff?" "Not today."
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Post by A Girl on Mar 11, 2017 23:18:13 GMT -5
Oh, it wasn't an alt, Lyse. It was an animated npc byn sergeant from an entire other warband. The red something, hammers, fists? Guy looked like a vestric or something? The last log I have is of Tivona. After I sent in that request and got that response, there was clearly no point to logging it for proof, it was imo simply time to leave the clan. At least if it was a trooper or below, she could've told them to go piss up a rope without a legitimate chance of being whipped for it. As it was, it was very apparent that the power level disparity was something that they wanted to underline by choosing a ranking Sergeant to come in and demand this, so... no, I wanted no part of the clan staff who thought that that was remotely appropriate.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 11, 2017 23:33:32 GMT -5
I am offended by the entire log the aide was subjected to... I am impressed someone would go white knight under those circumstances, but it was obviously deliberately being pushed a certain way... and like you said, the docs say that women and men are equal and that whoring is an honerably profession... that things went how they did was just, utter facepalm of epic proportions. It never should have happened in the first place, and even if it did, it should have been smote with the fury of tektolnes himself because fuck this stump, I'm busy watching porn.
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