jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388 
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Post by jesantu on Feb 4, 2016 11:15:47 GMT -5
Oh ghaati. Always fighting for complacence to the bitter end. A player clan board was put up for a month, had 2 posts, then was taken down again? That's your example of accomplishment? You want to fight for THAT!?
Have you read the quote I pasted earlier?
Despite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
barring the ludicrous. If your character sets up a mercenary company,
he/she may one day lead an army of loyal soldiers on an assault of one
of the great city-states. As a magicker your character may one day become
a fabled elemental being. Burglars may reach levels of affluence beyond
imagination, and merchants may likewise become so rich as to own their
own merchant house and dominate the world's economy. The limits are
truly whatever you can imagine occurring.
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dcdc
Shartist
Posts: 539
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Post by dcdc on Feb 4, 2016 11:15:43 GMT -5
I think, if anything, that the fact that getting an NPC hawker or a locked warehouse is brought up as the height of what can be accomplished in today's Armageddon only emphasizes how bleak the game has become. I remember when a templar was disgraced and thrown out of the templarate, took refuge with the Guild, and was eventually betrayed and murdered by them. Nothing nearly that interesting has happened in the last six or seven years. ARM STAFF PLS GUIS Though I can already imagine one of the ~5 max stealth PC's who be running around in the Rinth they way they do now, backing stabbing said Templar with in the first 12 hours-ish. Just outside of the Folley, as a breed. Staff would probably kudos that PC for killing the plot in the crib. "Good job that, we nearly had a fucking plot happen!" A collective sigh of relief so players can go back to disgusting mud sex and fighting over who's turn it was to grind on the Jozhal. (I've only gotten 8 misses on Slashing!). While touting the games still an RPI. |
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Feb 4, 2016 11:16:17 GMT -5
Good points from both of you. I think the warehouses and player clans was the imms initial reaction to jcarter criticism. It was their way of saying 'we're not like that and we'll show you!!' So they started these ideas (warehouses etc) to show us....and then never followed through. And even if the jade darkmoon whatever clan is a legitimate thing they are effectively neutered by a system which won't let them resemble any current clans and therefore leaves them little outlet besides hunting. House deuring would never happen in this day. You're right about the circus oldtwink. If it was a front for spice smuggling or an assassins guild or anything, that'd be awesome. But it's not. So how to end the apathy players have been conditioned into? Well that takes one good imm willing to promote and encourage and ALLOW you to rise. One imm who does not believe in the culture of limitation. Are you out there?
My understanding of how the staff is set up is that it would take more than just "one good imm" to make a difference because, as Adhira (and maybe others) have pointed out repeatedly, the staff make decisions by consensus. So a rogue imm empowering players literally cannot happen under the current system unless they ALL agree on it.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Feb 4, 2016 11:18:16 GMT -5
Ok in that case forget it. Long live limitation, I guess!
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Patuk
Shartist
Posts: 553
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Post by Patuk on Feb 4, 2016 11:28:16 GMT -5
Something something prisoner's dilemma something something tragedy of the commons
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Feb 4, 2016 11:31:37 GMT -5
Emerging from hiatus to post...
I know of 2 groups that managed to get warehouses and 1 that was near it, none of the 3 were not linked to staff. No one I know has managed to get a hawker or a shop though.
1 - Sleazy male tuluki at the close of tuluk Draz? I forget the name.
This was played by a player who got force stored by Nyr on another character. They were basically running the Warrens prior to the Tuluki close and was one of the people who got completely blindsided by the situation while building up to have a merchant house with a human front and everything. They got a warehouse in Allanak after the move and had the legitimate income and money to begin the merchant house process.
2 - Aon and the White Carru Trading Company
This was formed by a tribal female and I can't for the life of me remember her name (but then again this was years ago). Aon inherited control of it and as a tuluki citizen was one of the first person in the north to use a warehouse when they came out. They never had a storefront but they did get staff support a couple of times for unique orders like 2 story tall marble or alabaster being harvested from the cliffs.
3 - Rinthi con artist girl
This chica was in the process of getting funding for a warehouse and was a rinthi who managed to move up the social ladder in Allanak. She was aiming to make her own merchant house but got cut short by being involved with the wrong people and somewhat murder happy templars. To my knowledge she was on track to get a warehouse as soon as the funds from her backers were deposited.
In general a culture of limitation is a good term for what is happening to Armageddon. Another way to look at it is simply lack of faith. Either in the playerbase to tell meaningful stories or be trusted to color inside the lines of the lore and documentation. Possibly even a lack of faith in the staff themselves to do something inventive or untested and be able to keep hold of it without ruining the formula. I think Armageddon, more than any other game, protects the formula. During my tenure playing there it was very obvious that with SOI closed and building up to Laketown RPI that Armageddon had assumed the largest share of the potential RPI players. And they didn't want to change anything if they could help it. Keep the formula going, minimal changes, success through consistency.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Feb 4, 2016 11:35:01 GMT -5
Arm pre-culture of limitation:
Thrain lays siege to the entire city of allanak. Fails to win but even pulling off an attempted sacking of a city-state makes you a legend without rival.
Sargax kurac reaches the highest rank possible in the entire clan.
Samos becomes a red robed templar.
Prian borsail becomes a senior lord.
Gerrol the rukkian (and a dwarf!) in the conclave becomes "a fabled elemental being".
Arm during the culture of limitation:
none of the above
And you guys want your jade dusters and to say that's an accomplishment. You really were conditioned to be apathetic if that's the case.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 11:39:01 GMT -5
and here I feel compelled to point out that even when the imms want to try and turn over a new leaf, they don't. does anyone own a warehouse? has anyone created their own coded clan? what happened to that! you could argue that it's simply because no players are interested and that's why none exist but I have a sneaking suspicion otherwise. Jesantu my response was in response to this. You implied that it hadn't been done. I pointed out that it had been done. It was done before that too. Problem with one I remember from before was when the leader got killed no one in the clan wanted to maintain the fees so it shut down. The newer one is still there but the hawker was taken off the street. Wasn't two months, was around eight for the hawker but I get what you're saying. Agree the rules and regs are hard to follow and hard to understand and it could be simplified so more people have a chance of succeeding. But you imply no one created one. I just correct that because people have created them since the whole warehouse thing was established. |
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Feb 4, 2016 11:51:36 GMT -5
Who gives a shit if it's been done when you're examples are so weak as to hardly be worth mentioning? Have I showed you the quote I pasted earlier? It's the entire backbone of my point here. Telling me some unmemorable clan had their own warehouse for a couple of months before they disappeared is just arguing for arguments sake. We're talking about players having zero power these days, not if some dude technically owned a warehouse for 2 days of playing time.
Imagine if I said where are all the apple trees, apple trees never grow in our lands any more at all! And along comes ghaati to correct us by saying two apple trees started to sprout but died before they could fully form. Three years ago. Gee, thanks for the correction.
108/112/98>You give your jade duster of apathy to ghaati.
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Feb 4, 2016 11:53:17 GMT -5
Arm pre-culture of limitation: Thrain lays siege to the entire city of allanak. Fails to win but even pulling off an attempted sacking of a city-state makes you a legend without rival. Sargax kurac reaches the highest rank possible in the entire clan. Samos becomes a red robed templar. Prian borsail becomes a senior lord. Gerrol the rukkian (and a dwarf!) in the conclave becomes "a fabled elemental being". Arm during the culture of limitation: none of the above And you guys want your jade dusters and to say that's an accomplishment. You really were conditioned to be apathetic if that's the case.
I'm going to toot my own horn a sec. Sargax started off as a lowly merchant in Luir's and through RP he worked his way up to eventually join the Kuraci family and then join the Council (as Head of Northern Operations, which I think may have actually happened before he joined the family) and eventually to become the Magnate.
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Feb 4, 2016 11:59:05 GMT -5
In general a culture of limitation is a good term for what is happening to Armageddon. Another way to look at it is simply lack of faith. Either in the playerbase to tell meaningful stories or be trusted to color inside the lines of the lore and documentation. Possibly even a lack of faith in the staff themselves to do something inventive or untested and be able to keep hold of it without ruining the formula. I think Armageddon, more than any other game, protects the formula. During my tenure playing there it was very obvious that with SOI closed and building up to Laketown RPI that Armageddon had assumed the largest share of the potential RPI players. And they didn't want to change anything if they could help it. Keep the formula going, minimal changes, success through consistency. I agree 100%. Then I completely understand your frustration. That is stunning to me: a successful Templar told to stop instigating hostile play against a mortal enemies' population. This whole "we need to make a nicer game for the players" stance in the last two years is a serious, serious mistake. To me it was another example of the consistent lack of trust in the players. A lack of trust in players to make their own fun and to create fun for others. Also a lack of trust in players to play within the confines of the IC world. |
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Feb 4, 2016 12:21:32 GMT -5
I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that ysania style player coddling doesn't exist any more, that the imms even have policies against it. This is both a blessing and a curse for the game, if my guess is true at all. It's a blessing because now players should rise and fall based on the merits of their actions, not some sanvean who likes them for their genitals. It's a bad thing because imms translate it to mean no real support for players at all. But Thrain can't storm nak without imm support, Sargax can't become the clan leader, Samos, Prian, etc. So instead no one does anything really.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 12:36:07 GMT -5
Nobles, who they hand select, can do some things. Like the Ocotillo Festival.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Feb 4, 2016 20:07:09 GMT -5
I really can empathize with the quoted guy in the OP. Since I jumped back into Arm (before I quit again) I could really feel the culture shift. The staff did such a thorough job eliminating player contribution/possibilities you pretty much had to skill up if you wanted to do more than talk.
I remember arguing with Wyvare Kurac in luirs about the high prices of ale in the tavern and watching how his emoting style brought the world to life, I really felt like I was in some rickety old tavern dealing with a stern, hardheaded merchant (despite that "emoting does not equal RP"). It's worth remembering the context of "emoting does not equal RP." It was the early 2000's and the world's least interesting roleplayers were gathering on the GDB to insult people for not emoting with enough flourish or verbage for their tastes. Sometimes they were acting like dickheads in-game for that. The entirely accurate counterpoint that "emoting does not equal RP" was meant to combat the self-titled fashionistas' attitude towards people who didn't "roleplay" on their level by emoting more. Having a one-dimensional character and compensating by throwing out obscure adjectives within buffer-testing-length descriptions of your hair being gently jostled by the wind as VNPCs slip in and out of the main tarp of the Gaj is not a substitute for having a well-developed character with realistic drives and believable reactions. That is all that phrase ever meant. It was not a call to eliminate/discourage emoting. Nobles, who they hand select, can do some things. Like the Ocotillo Festival. Parties don't count as something.  |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2016 3:07:23 GMT -5
Nobles, who they hand select, can do some things. Like the Ocotillo Festival. plz tel me moar abowt wut u do 2 prmt aktivty wit playrz n enhans th atmosfer of arm o rite u just sit heer whining abowt how u wer treeted in th past nd go on 2-day ragequitz n then cmoe bak n piss on othr playrz shit withowt doing ur own shit |
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