|
|
Post by RogueRougeRanger on Feb 4, 2016 10:10:42 GMT -5
A leader kicking some dude out of a clan for having lame skills has probably never happened since I can remember. Either the underling was completely unable to perform, or the leader held some sort of grudge, or the underling was abandoning clan RP to do his own thing. If I'm the Sergeant of the Byn, and this Merchant/House Servant joins and can never function in the clan, then you kick them out. That's completely different from "Recruit Amos, your slashing is still at apprentice. I'm not letting you become a Private." Unless you can point to a specific leading character who has done that, I'll remain skeptic. That's a boogeyman about meta that I don't think exists.
I think you're right! But if (and it's a big if) it is a problem then abolishing the clan caps would help. Basically, I think that the clan caps are garbage.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 10:12:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm skeptical that anybody was actually kicked from a clan for not being skilled enough. It might be that somebody wasn't promoted to some higher rank because he was a merchant in the Byn or some shit. I wouldn't believe that anyone actually went "you're not strong enough to maintain your current position, you're fired" unless somebody showed me a log of it. It sounds like the slippery slope fallacy.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 10:15:22 GMT -5
Honestly, it's mostly gemmed magickers that I see getting crap from templars (and possibly Oash nobles) for not advancing quickly enough. Or at least, a lot of people complain about that, a lot more than complain that they're griped at in combat clans.
|
|
punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098 
|
Post by punished ppurg on Feb 4, 2016 10:19:20 GMT -5
Considering a gemmed magicker is a tool of the Templar, that makes sense, too. You know and I know and everybody knows how easy it is to max out a magicker. If a Templar player has plots to solve, and the magicker isn't going to put the effort in to enable those plots, he should expect to be bullied. That's my 2 cents.
I think RRR is right on the money that if this is an actual problem, remove clan caps. Since Tuluk closed and there's no need for diametrically opposed clans, it makes sense.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 10:21:48 GMT -5
I dunno. OOCly you know it's easy to max out, but ICly maybe people progress at different rates. I don't know if "how easy it is to max out a magicker" is supposed to be considered an IC thing. I'm not saying they shouldn't be bullied, but people should go about that bullying in the right way so it doesn't sound like an OOC "wink wink nudge nudge c'mon we both know you could be twinking harder."
|
|
jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
|
Post by jesantu on Feb 4, 2016 10:37:11 GMT -5
James de Monet wrote: "How do you guys feel about the metagaming or powergaming aspects of the game and GDB, of late? To my perception, it seems like these things are on the rise, and I don't know how I feel about it. I am not much of a metagamer. Min/maxing and the complete expectation that you will do it (and the castigation/judgement/ostratization if you don't) is one of the worst things about all of gaming culture, to me, and the reason I can't play any MMOs to the endgame. I made my first character on Arm in 2000, and I am finding out things about skill code, branching, bonuses and penalties, etc. at a higher rate now than I have at any other time in my 16 years. I think that says something. If I had to look for a reason, I think I would probably point to prevalent references to other sources of information on the GDB and a more relaxed approach to singular references to code mechanics than in the past (whole discussions still seem to be frowned upon, but people making comments like "all burglars only hunt creature X for Y reason" seem to be dropping everywhere, and a lot of times, I didn't know these 'facts' before they were presented as 'common knowledge'). I think some of it also stems from staff comments and code changes (like the ability to see your skill levels), but I don't find this source to be particularly damaging, I just think it facilitates the other kind. How do you guys feel about it? Like, dislike? Surprised by these sentiments, think I must be pretty unobservant to not pick up on code mechanics over such a long period? I made this a poll so lots of opinions would be represented, not just a vocal minority. I will say I have had character concepts that suffered because I never managed to branch or improve some skills that were important to the concept, but I also am beginning to get that feeling that if I don't skillmax in Arm, I might get kicked out of my clan in favor of someone who did, and I don't like that feeling. I don't like it at all. Thoughts? P.S. I put this in general discussion instead of the code forum, because it's a thread about knowledge of code, not about the code itself. (Does that make it the meta-metagame thread?)" Hey James, Sorry your playstyle has been impacted by a counter-movement I've been part of. That said, I'm not the only one that Nyr and others insulted and acted punitively against due to my playstyle of choice. Outside of the imms, some of the loudest voices in the Gdb standing up for roleplay over mechanical play have also been complete hypocrites, circulating maps, skill lists, spell information, House secret docs, etc. I'm not the only player who tried without success to have a fruitful dialogue with staff, before turning to less gentle avenues. I have done some things on this board in anger. Mea culpa. That said, when a number of angry players and former players got to the point of replying in kind with the way we were treated by staff and some gdb luminaries, I hope you realize we did not act against some Eden of perfect roleplay. This board has had an effect on the culture inside and outside the game. That said, I do not think that mechanical play is automatically counter to immersive roleplay. I assert, and challenge that we can find a middle ground. Like your post, I believe that staff will have to participate in this change to help it occur in a positive manner. Anger cannot drive long term creative, productive discussion. Arm can, and must appeal to, and support many play styles. Muds need as large a population as possible. Trying to drive out decade plus veterans causes alot of problems on the way out. Even after they leave, this board proves that they have the ability to exact a certain level of harm. Let us have a healthy game. I think we all agree on that. Banme.
One reason for a focus on the code is because the code is one avenue where players can still achieve (the other is griefing). If a player wants to achieve something on Arm they used to be able to rise up via RP, however with the Culture of Limitation and the glass ceiling especially, that is no longer really possible. So achievers gravitate to the code.
Also, if PCs are really being fired from clans for being codedly underdeveloped as James de Monet suggests, then removing the clan caps would help that problem. That way clan leader PCs wouldn't need to worry about opening up spots under their cap to bring in code monkeys to keep themselves alive during the next spider RPT.
I really like the phrase "culture of limitation". For all the bitching that happens on the gdb, it's one of the more quickly dismissed topics but it's one of the most important ones. If players had even a chance of attaining any real heights you'd find a lot less of the above going on. But limitation is the order of the day, so what else is there to do but quit playing or powergame. Dman claims people used to focus only on RP back in the day. Well ok yeah that's pretty much a load of hogwash but there were definitely more players trying to tell a story back then, that's true. There is almost no storytelling at all now. Most characters are cookie cutters without depth. I remember LoD's character Bushman playing the guitar around a campfire in a rebel camp after a long ride in the plains and being awed by the fact that he was more than just a maxxed ranger, that he had personality and emotion as well. I remember shadowing Basya the Hammer outside of Tuluk and watching her impale a sun of kings kruth card with her knife, denouncing the sun king for some strange reason and being awed by the RP, because for all she knew she was alone and no one was watching. I remember arguing with Wyvare Kurac in luirs about the high prices of ale in the tavern and watching how his emoting style brought the world to life, I really felt like I was in some rickety old tavern dealing with a stern, hardheaded merchant (despite that "emoting does not equal RP"). It reminds me of a line straight out of the MUDs rules and how heartbreakingly untrue it has become. Despite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
barring the ludicrous. If your character sets up a mercenary company,
he/she may one day lead an army of loyal soldiers on an assault of one
of the great city-states. As a magicker your character may one day become
a fabled elemental being. Burglars may reach levels of affluence beyond
imagination, and merchants may likewise become so rich as to own their
own merchant house and dominate the world's economy. The limits are
truly whatever you can imagine occurring.To those of you who weren't playing in those days, the line above really was true. In fact, I've seen every single example above happen at least once before the culture of limitation took hold. I haven't seen even a single example above happen once afterwards. I don't know how you can defend that with a straight face, I really don't. |
|
jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
|
Post by jesantu on Feb 4, 2016 10:44:52 GMT -5
and here I feel compelled to point out that even when the imms want to try and turn over a new leaf, they don't. does anyone own a warehouse? has anyone created their own coded clan? what happened to that! you could argue that it's simply because no players are interested and that's why none exist but I have a sneaking suspicion otherwise.
|
|
|
|
Post by RogueRougeRanger on Feb 4, 2016 10:58:14 GMT -5
and here I feel compelled to point out that even when the imms want to try and turn over a new leaf, they don't. does anyone own a warehouse? has anyone created their own coded clan? what happened to that! you could argue that it's simply because no players are interested and that's why none exist but I have a sneaking suspicion otherwise.
Well, IMO the warehouses and the super complicated OOC scheme governing player created minor merchant houses both support the Culture of Limitation. Both are 100% controlled by the staff and are laden with OOC rules so the effect is to limit player input and control. It would not be surprising to me to learn that neither are used by players in the present game.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 10:58:53 GMT -5
I think there are the Darkmoon guys, but I don't know how "organic" that is as I wasn't in town when they were getting started. For all I know, it could be set up by a staff avatar or something like that. They also don't exactly lead armies to assault the enemy city-state or anything remotely close to that. I've never actually heard of anything they did beyond hunting, so while I'm sure they have done more, it's hardly world-shaking stuff. I believe one of the stipulations for their approval was that they mustn't compete with the Byn, so that rather conflicts with the above quote from the docs.
I do wonder if things can go back to the way they once were. Can the playerbase be re-conditioned or is the damage done? I remember a time when roleplay mattered and was valid. I remember Private Paryl, then Sergeant Paryl, then Lieutenant Paryl who became increasingly influential and famous despite having fairly modest skills and rarely putting them to any use outside the arena. I remember Aide Otikus, then Adjunct Otikus, then Magistrate Otikus. People who made names for themselves and managed to be prominent, meaningful and important characters without having some vaunted spec-apped role or extreme coded power. And such characters were abundant in the 2002-2007 period.
There are people (not many) who attempt to do their own thing and stand out, but it always seems to me that the results are missing. Like the circus clan thing. Yeah, you can form a circus and go around and juggle flaming kalans or whatever, but it doesn't amount to anything. You wouldn't be allowed to do anything that amounts to anything. You can get on stage and do your little dance, but you can never be the director of the play. You can never matter. Not anymore.
I worry that the playerbase has just been conditioned to accept this, that it has become so ingrained that nobody questions it anymore. Some also whiteknight the game so hard that I think it contributes to the problem, because it allows staff to go "well, look, that player says it's fine, why change anything?" Whenever we talk about how stagnant the game has become and how little is going on, someone like RGS invariably comes along and insists that there's plenty going on and the game is fantastically active and intensely entertaining. I always ask for examples of things that are going on which would matter to somebody who isn't immediately involved through friendship with specific players. I have never gotten an answer.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 11:00:52 GMT -5
There was jesantu a whole clan that formed and got their own clan gear a warehouse with a door guard and they even had their own hawker on the street all in the last year (more or less a couple months). Hawker's not there anymore but AFAIK the warehouse and clan is still around.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 11:06:25 GMT -5
I think, if anything, that the fact that getting an NPC hawker or a locked warehouse is brought up as the height of what can be accomplished in today's Armageddon only emphasizes how bleak the game has become. What does something like that actually add to the game? What's interesting about it? What's worth remembering about it?
I remember when a templar was disgraced and thrown out of the templarate, took refuge with the Guild, and was eventually betrayed and murdered by them. Nothing nearly that interesting has happened in the last six or seven years. I don't feel that anything like this could happen anymore. I think that the templar would be force-stored and that'd be the end.
|
|
|
|
Post by RogueRougeRanger on Feb 4, 2016 11:07:28 GMT -5
And I worry that the playerbase has just been conditioned to accept this, that it has become so ingrained that nobody questions it anymore. Some also whiteknight the game so hard that I think it contributes to the problem, because it allows staff to go "well, look, that player says it's fine, why change anything?" Whenever we talk about how stagnant the game has become and how little is going on, someone like RGS invariably comes along and insists that there's plenty going on and the game is fantastically active and intensely entertaining. I always ask for examples of things that are going on which would matter to somebody who isn't immediately involved through friendship with specific players. I have never gotten an answer. My view is that the playerbase IS being conditioned to accept the status quo. Those that resist either get beaten down and fall in line like Kmart... Well, sure, that don't make no damn sense. Listen, I tried my dick off to get things done in Tuluk and in Kurac, and in all of my years of playing leaders, I never got one single thing done or changed. I've come to realize that "be the change" means "be the change within the parameters of the world that already exists", and lemme tell ya, I started playing in the Byn, and mostly stopped giving a fuck about leaving my mark on the world and just playing a real, hardcore Zalanthan personality, and I was suddenly having fun on this game, again. I dunno if that helps anyone else, but once I realized I was giving too many fucks, I started having a pretty good time. ...or they leave. And some newer players like RGS never experienced anything different, so they're happy. |
|
dcdc
Shartist
Posts: 539
|
Post by dcdc on Feb 4, 2016 11:10:13 GMT -5
You notice: Armageddon Players throwing rocks from their glass house.
LMAO
I'm gaining a tolerance for this thread. I could point at least three players harping about Muh RP while knowing full well they rolled around with Maxxed out pc's shitting on anyone who didn't have the coded power to retaliate.
Karma fishing, the thread!
|
|
jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
|
Post by jesantu on Feb 4, 2016 11:10:11 GMT -5
Good points from both of you.
I think the warehouses and player clans was the imms initial reaction to jcarter criticism. It was their way of saying 'we're not like that and we'll show you!!' So they started these ideas (warehouses etc) to show us....and then never followed through. And even if the jade darkmoon whatever clan is a legitimate thing they are effectively neutered by a system which won't let them resemble any current clans and therefore leaves them little outlet besides hunting. House deuring would never happen in this day. You're right about the circus oldtwink. If it was a front for spice smuggling or an assassins guild or anything, that'd be awesome. But it's not.
So how to end the apathy players have been conditioned into? Well that takes one good imm willing to promote and encourage and ALLOW you to rise. One imm who does not believe in the culture of limitation. Are you out there?
|
|
jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
|
Post by jesantu on Feb 4, 2016 11:11:45 GMT -5
By both of you I meat red ranger and oldtwink
|
|
