Post by bastilleangel on Nov 11, 2015 9:51:13 GMT -5
After reading this:
Ehhh... this seems like a lot of speculation. I'm all up for a pessimism-down on Arm, but Rath's projects in Tuluk were a total 180 from Nyr's and Rath got royally fucked over by the closing. Do you have any examples of Rath going full-nyrtard?
This is long post, but it addresses a question that deserves a serious response. I think it's important to show why my statements have nothing to do with vitriol or negativity and everything to do with pragmatic realism.
1) I don't think he's as bad as Nyr. I simply postulate that he is the exact sort of person that might conceivably rise to Producer in a Nyr-dominated staff hierarchy. If you can imagine, in your own mind, what such a person might be like that Nyr would want to replace him...Well. There you go. There's no doubt that Rath is much more polite than Nyr. But that doesn't mean that philosophically they're that different.
2) So in order to determine what Rath's philosophy might be, I have to set it alongside known facts (i.e, the aforementioned indisputable fact of Rath being chosen to replace Nyr in a Nyr-dominated political hierarchy) and what few statements he has made. Such as his known views of the Tablelands, his seeming lack of recognition of the fact that it was staff who drove the Tablelands to where it is now, and his seeming, instinctive view of players as more 'audience' than actors. He's probably - much like Nyr is - much more slanted to seeing big plots and machinations in the game as being the preserve of NPCs.
3) Then we can extrapolate from that, how most staffers in the past have behaved, when they were known to favor a 'top down' approach to storytelling. A 'top down' approach is when the storyteller (rarely even including the very highest echelons of player leadership such as templars) assume the full responsibility of being the plot engine. Unfortunately, it's doomed to failure since they'll never be able to keep everyone entertained. Instead, it kills player logins as people assume nothing interesting will happen that isn't an RPT. It also encourages staff burnout. Those who try the hardest burn out the fastest.
4) Similarly, I'm sure logins will spike when Rath does his big choreographed RPTs, but there will be deep troughs. Another test of Rath will be how he acts when people eventually begin having trouble with this. Since it's not so much about him, as him epitomizing a system of game management that is inevitably bound to collide with the interests of the majority of the playerbase. Since it's hard to be as toxic a personality as Nyr is, I'm sure Rath will respond to it in a less infamously aggravating way. But it will still lead to mediocrity.
These might sound like a lot of assumptions, but it's pretty much what the State Department does every day. 'Oh, great, General Baboonfucker has replaced Potentate Wubulu in Equatorial Shithole. Quick, what do we know about General Baboonfucker?' And they're forced to make similar assumptions and predictions based on the relative known cliques and attitudes of the individuals involved. In this case, what we have is a very orderly succession.
5) Those who think that the majority of staff suddenly realized Nyr was driving players away and rose up and deposed him in a coup lead by Rath, are dreaming. Rath is Nyr's handpicked protege, and would eagerly and happily step down the moment Nyr deigns to return. Rath has probably consoled Nyr in the past and offered him support and encouragement, when others criticized him. And as my2sids said, he hates this board and all the personalities on it. If he's told my2sids that, one almost shudders to imagine what he's confided to those who really feel the same way. Since I know my2sids is a friendly bloke and likes most everyone here.
In conclusion:
So yes. Far from making assumptions, I feel that my viewpoint of Rath is the obvious one, and that most others are blinded by hope. But hey, if the only thing bothering you about Armageddon was that Nyr was snarky on the forums, and otherwise loved how it was managed and run, then you should love Rath.
If you didn't care much about Nyr being snarky on the forums, but wanted a game that was well run and well managed, and which saw players as its most valuable resource, than you are likely to be quickly disillusioned. Of course, Nyr earned everyone's hatred because he was both arrogant and incompetent. You typically don't get a forum devoted to ripping on you by being only one or the other. You have to be both, and at the same time, somehow luck into a position of supreme authority that most feel you only earned by manipulation and attrition.
...I thought that for those of us with little experience of/with Rathustra, it would be good to gather some data, anecdotal and otherwise.
First, full disclosure: I've only played with/under Rath once before that I'm aware of, and only for a month or so. The role required close communication with my staff team, of which he was the lead member. The experience was generally good; he seemed reasonably responsive, solidly professional, and didn't change his mind from one day to the next. Against that, I didn't have enough time to get a real sense of any of the other potential problem areas, such as how he reacted when I didn't fall 100% in-line on a staff-generated plot, how supportive he would have been long-term about character-driven scenarios, etc.
So, mileage may vary! What's been yours with this (presumed) gentleman who is now a Producer?
Edited to add: I really, really hope Sirra is wrong about the 2nd sentence of his last point, i.e. that Rath will step down as soon as Nyrcakes indicates he's ready to resume his cancerous ways. That would just make me
1) I don't think he's as bad as Nyr. I simply postulate that he is the exact sort of person that might conceivably rise to Producer in a Nyr-dominated staff hierarchy. If you can imagine, in your own mind, what such a person might be like that Nyr would want to replace him...Well. There you go. There's no doubt that Rath is much more polite than Nyr. But that doesn't mean that philosophically they're that different.
2) So in order to determine what Rath's philosophy might be, I have to set it alongside known facts (i.e, the aforementioned indisputable fact of Rath being chosen to replace Nyr in a Nyr-dominated political hierarchy) and what few statements he has made. Such as his known views of the Tablelands, his seeming lack of recognition of the fact that it was staff who drove the Tablelands to where it is now, and his seeming, instinctive view of players as more 'audience' than actors. He's probably - much like Nyr is - much more slanted to seeing big plots and machinations in the game as being the preserve of NPCs.
3) Then we can extrapolate from that, how most staffers in the past have behaved, when they were known to favor a 'top down' approach to storytelling. A 'top down' approach is when the storyteller (rarely even including the very highest echelons of player leadership such as templars) assume the full responsibility of being the plot engine. Unfortunately, it's doomed to failure since they'll never be able to keep everyone entertained. Instead, it kills player logins as people assume nothing interesting will happen that isn't an RPT. It also encourages staff burnout. Those who try the hardest burn out the fastest.
4) Similarly, I'm sure logins will spike when Rath does his big choreographed RPTs, but there will be deep troughs. Another test of Rath will be how he acts when people eventually begin having trouble with this. Since it's not so much about him, as him epitomizing a system of game management that is inevitably bound to collide with the interests of the majority of the playerbase. Since it's hard to be as toxic a personality as Nyr is, I'm sure Rath will respond to it in a less infamously aggravating way. But it will still lead to mediocrity.
These might sound like a lot of assumptions, but it's pretty much what the State Department does every day. 'Oh, great, General Baboonfucker has replaced Potentate Wubulu in Equatorial Shithole. Quick, what do we know about General Baboonfucker?' And they're forced to make similar assumptions and predictions based on the relative known cliques and attitudes of the individuals involved. In this case, what we have is a very orderly succession.
5) Those who think that the majority of staff suddenly realized Nyr was driving players away and rose up and deposed him in a coup lead by Rath, are dreaming. Rath is Nyr's handpicked protege, and would eagerly and happily step down the moment Nyr deigns to return. Rath has probably consoled Nyr in the past and offered him support and encouragement, when others criticized him. And as my2sids said, he hates this board and all the personalities on it. If he's told my2sids that, one almost shudders to imagine what he's confided to those who really feel the same way. Since I know my2sids is a friendly bloke and likes most everyone here.
In conclusion:
So yes. Far from making assumptions, I feel that my viewpoint of Rath is the obvious one, and that most others are blinded by hope. But hey, if the only thing bothering you about Armageddon was that Nyr was snarky on the forums, and otherwise loved how it was managed and run, then you should love Rath.
If you didn't care much about Nyr being snarky on the forums, but wanted a game that was well run and well managed, and which saw players as its most valuable resource, than you are likely to be quickly disillusioned. Of course, Nyr earned everyone's hatred because he was both arrogant and incompetent. You typically don't get a forum devoted to ripping on you by being only one or the other. You have to be both, and at the same time, somehow luck into a position of supreme authority that most feel you only earned by manipulation and attrition.
...I thought that for those of us with little experience of/with Rathustra, it would be good to gather some data, anecdotal and otherwise.
First, full disclosure: I've only played with/under Rath once before that I'm aware of, and only for a month or so. The role required close communication with my staff team, of which he was the lead member. The experience was generally good; he seemed reasonably responsive, solidly professional, and didn't change his mind from one day to the next. Against that, I didn't have enough time to get a real sense of any of the other potential problem areas, such as how he reacted when I didn't fall 100% in-line on a staff-generated plot, how supportive he would have been long-term about character-driven scenarios, etc.
So, mileage may vary! What's been yours with this (presumed) gentleman who is now a Producer?
Edited to add: I really, really hope Sirra is wrong about the 2nd sentence of his last point, i.e. that Rath will step down as soon as Nyrcakes indicates he's ready to resume his cancerous ways. That would just make me
