jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388 
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Post by jesantu on Oct 31, 2015 4:56:47 GMT -5
Not only does this seem unnecessary with no final productive end-goal in mind...it is also somewhat creepy and stalker-ish.
Dman I respect that you don't want to name any imm names yourself and wish to post by a certain set of personal rules (namely that which will keep you from being banned should you wish to return to the game). Really I do. But people here have long been naming imms directly and criticizing them/observing the error of their ways. That's not going to stop. I'm sure everyone here feels you're welcome to participate in these discussions, even if you wish to post in vague and ambiguous terms to avoid naming people directly. But you can count on other posters still being direct and to the point, and still using the dreaded N(yr) word. No one's saying you have to do the same but it's unlikely that others will stop just because you're here now. |
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Oct 31, 2015 8:05:44 GMT -5
nah purg already made that pt and dman went damn so there u go
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Post by desertman on Oct 31, 2015 9:00:31 GMT -5
Not only does this seem unnecessary with no final productive end-goal in mind...it is also somewhat creepy and stalker-ish.
Dman I respect that you don't want to name any imm names yourself and wish to post by a certain set of personal rules (namely that which will keep you from being banned should you wish to return to the game). Really I do. But people here have long been naming imms directly and criticizing them/observing the error of their ways. That's not going to stop. I'm sure everyone here feels you're welcome to participate in these discussions, even if you wish to post in vague and ambiguous terms to avoid naming people directly. But you can count on other posters still being direct and to the point, and still using the dreaded N(yr) word. No one's saying you have to do the same but it's unlikely that others will stop just because you're here now. The difference between those people and myself is my end-game is to improve the game. The only way to get taken seriously is to act like someone who should be taken seriously. Do I think everyone here is going to act that way? Of course not. That won't stop me from noting that I believe they should....and they have every right to continue ignoring me. |
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
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Post by punished ppurg on Oct 31, 2015 9:32:04 GMT -5
My end-game is to improve the game too, for the record. And in my opinion, the game can be improved by getting these certain toxic neanderthals out of positions of power. It's obvious to me that I care more about the integrity of the game universe and the experience of the players than some of the excuses that have been allowed on the staff team.
I'm not going to sit and be coy about it, because unlike the rest of the shrinking playerbase, I've got nothing to lose for calling a spade a spade. They've pretty much taken everything they could from me for my criticism, and made a mockery of the universe which they inherited. It's pathetic, and the person leading the way with it deserves to be held responsible.
I'm not going to kid myself and ever assume that the current staff team will ever be willing to hold an honest discussion with me. I fell for that trap with Adhira, and she fucked my words apart later on. If vehemently disagreeing with an incestuous policy makes my argument lack seriousness, then everything that's ever come before or will come after me will be just as much of a joke.
But I don't want to make this about me me me. It's going to take all kinds of feedback to change these rooted imperators, which is my end goal as much as it is anyone else who truly cares about Armageddon. I'm happy to have more "allies" in the sense of disgruntled players willing to do something about it. I've just lost my tact along the way, heh.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Oct 31, 2015 12:51:42 GMT -5
Dman I respect that you don't want to name any imm names yourself and wish to post by a certain set of personal rules (namely that which will keep you from being banned should you wish to return to the game). Really I do. But people here have long been naming imms directly and criticizing them/observing the error of their ways. That's not going to stop. I'm sure everyone here feels you're welcome to participate in these discussions, even if you wish to post in vague and ambiguous terms to avoid naming people directly. But you can count on other posters still being direct and to the point, and still using the dreaded N(yr) word. No one's saying you have to do the same but it's unlikely that others will stop just because you're here now. The difference between those people and myself is my end-game is to improve the game. The only way to get taken seriously is to act like someone who should be taken seriously. Do I think everyone here is going to act that way? Of course not. That won't stop me from noting that I believe they should....and they have every right to continue ignoring me. Those people and yourself? Which people? The people who use the N(yr) word? I don't think openly discussing specific imm names means you're against the notion of improving the game. You don't want to be seen as badmouthing them, that's fine. But not everyone here who openly discusses the imms is badmouthing per se. A lot of it is actual, genuine criticism. And I'm of the belief that it needs to be heard. I appreciate that you want to adopt a more diplomatic approach but at the same time if your primary objective is to improve the game then this probably isn't the right place to voice your criticisms. Despite that I play very sparingly I have no objection to the discussions here or the general negative sentiment towards current imms. The top dogs have snuffed out all creativity and joy from the game and the rest are either cheerleaders or basically enablers through their silence alone. |
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Post by desertman on Oct 31, 2015 15:37:18 GMT -5
The difference between those people and myself is my end-game is to improve the game. The only way to get taken seriously is to act like someone who should be taken seriously. Do I think everyone here is going to act that way? Of course not. That won't stop me from noting that I believe they should....and they have every right to continue ignoring me. Those people and yourself? Which people? The people who use the N(yr) word? I don't think openly discussing specific imm names means you're against the notion of improving the game. You don't want to be seen as badmouthing them, that's fine. But not everyone here who openly discusses the imms is badmouthing per se. A lot of it is actual, genuine criticism. And I'm of the belief that it needs to be heard. I appreciate that you want to adopt a more diplomatic approach but at the same time if your primary objective is to improve the game then this probably isn't the right place to voice your criticisms. Despite that I play very sparingly I have no objection to the discussions here or the general negative sentiment towards current imms. The top dogs have snuffed out all creativity and joy from the game and the rest are either cheerleaders or basically enablers through their silence alone. I'm sure there is some fundamental positive gain to finding who who the IMM's are outside of their IMM accounts, I just don't see it. I think one person said they wanted to find out so they could do an analysis and try to reform the IMM's like they are Cesar Millan the IMM Whisperer, but if I have to go into why that's creepy, then I won't even bother. That aside, the people I'm talking about in general are the people who obviously do not want to help the game. They are so scorned, jaded, angry, and bent on "revenge" their goal is to make the game collapse so they can point and say, "HAH! I TOLD YOU! YOU FUCKING SUCK AND YOUR LEADERSHIP KILLED THE GAME!!!". Even if they don't -think- they are coming off that way....they are. As we all know, it isn't your intention that matters, it's how your efforts are perceived. If those people have to be told why their efforts are not only not going to help, but are most likely just going to make the problem worse, then they are the sorts of people who will never understand no matter how you tell you them anyways. |
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
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Post by punished ppurg on Oct 31, 2015 15:49:22 GMT -5
Of course anger and outrage at the current staff isn't going to "help." Not help what you want, anyway. Dman You are operating in a closed box of maintaining the status quo (albeit improving it). I, and many others, want that status quo torn down and replaced with something fundamentally better; this would include decent rules and procedures based in the improvement of the players' experience, and not founded in covering the asses of those incompetent on the staff team.
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Post by desertman on Oct 31, 2015 15:51:16 GMT -5
Of course anger and outrage at the current staff isn't going to "help." Not help what you want, anyway. Dman You are operating in a closed box of maintaining the status quo (albeit improving it). I, and many others, want that status quo torn down and replaced with something fundamentally better; this would include decent rules and procedures based in the improvement of the players' experience, and not founded in covering the asses of those incompetent on the staff team. I implore you to work positively towards a much more attainable middle ground. I don't feel that makes me the bad guy. (Not that you are saying I am, I just mean in general.) |
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
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Post by punished ppurg on Oct 31, 2015 15:54:39 GMT -5
Lol I tried. I really did. But if I did anything more radical than sit down, shut up, and get over this horrific problem I got, the same thing would have happened to me as it did: censored, force-stored, banned.
How can you positively work towards something in that environment? No, it's better to let everyone know how much more improved the game would be if the foundations were ripped up. The only way to do that is to vote with feet, en masse.
The staff team would rather water down the Arm experience than retain us, anyway -- whether we're good or bad, it doesn't matter.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2015 15:57:24 GMT -5
Lol I tried. I really did. But if I did anything more radical than sit down, shut up, and get over this horrific problem I got, the same thing would have happened to me as it did: censored, force-stored, banned. How can you positively work towards something in that environment? No, it's better to let everyone know how much more improved the game would be if the foundations were ripped up. The only way to do that is to vote with feet, en masse. The staff team would rather water down the Arm experience than retain us, anyway -- whether we're good or bad, it doesn't matter. it's not the foundations, just some staff need to get the fuck out or shut the fuck up. |
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
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Post by punished ppurg on Oct 31, 2015 15:59:44 GMT -5
When we're talking 2/3rd of the leaders, that's foundations.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Oct 31, 2015 16:02:42 GMT -5
Those people and yourself? Which people? The people who use the N(yr) word? I don't think openly discussing specific imm names means you're against the notion of improving the game. You don't want to be seen as badmouthing them, that's fine. But not everyone here who openly discusses the imms is badmouthing per se. A lot of it is actual, genuine criticism. And I'm of the belief that it needs to be heard. I appreciate that you want to adopt a more diplomatic approach but at the same time if your primary objective is to improve the game then this probably isn't the right place to voice your criticisms. Despite that I play very sparingly I have no objection to the discussions here or the general negative sentiment towards current imms. The top dogs have snuffed out all creativity and joy from the game and the rest are either cheerleaders or basically enablers through their silence alone. I'm sure there is some fundamental positive gain to finding who who the IMM's are outside of their IMM accounts, I just don't see it. I think one person said they wanted to find out so they could do an analysis and try to reform the IMM's like they are Cesar Millan the IMM Whisperer, but if I have to go into why that's creepy, then I won't even bother. That aside, the people I'm talking about in general are the people who obviously do not want to help the game. They are so scorned, jaded, angry, and bent on "revenge" their goal is to make the game collapse so they can point and say, "HAH! I TOLD YOU! YOU FUCKING SUCK AND YOUR LEADERSHIP KILLED THE GAME!!!". Even if they don't -think- they are coming off that way....they are. As we all know, it isn't your intention that matters, it's how your efforts are perceived. If those people have to be told why their efforts are not only not going to help, but are most likely just going to make the problem worse, then they are the sorts of people who will never understand no matter how you tell you them anyways. Ok well we're definitely talking about two different things because all I'm saying is if posters actually mention a specific imm name in a discussion that's fine, even if you personally don't want to use any imm names yourself. And I agree about the jadedness of some posters....but I also support the community here at large and I'm glad it exists. It's kind of a necessary outlet for a lot of players and ex players. |
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Oct 31, 2015 16:07:20 GMT -5
However you do realize dman the only actual solution for Arm is a change in admin. It's not like they're going to wake up one day and say 'oh my god desertman was right, let's turn over new leaves and vow to make a change for the better!!' They really will go down with the ship long before they own up to any of it being their fault at all.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2015 17:42:16 GMT -5
To some degree the game does need The Bad Man. Someone that takes out the trash. Someone firm who says no. There are good and bad ways to do this, Nyr hasn't mastered this, I wonder if he tries. The Bad Man sometimes has to be rude.
I think one problem is the playerbase can be a pretty contentious group. If you're having an argument with staff and you're right, they lose face and lose their power. If they aren't gracious enough in acknowledging when they're wrong or if the contentious player is too overbearing, it might be seen as a threat to their power so they execute that power to remove the threat. This happens all the time. They expect players to always be the conscientious ones and play the "but we're only human" card. Yeah I get it, the game is a lot of work and manners and niceties wear thin sometimes.
Now back to Nyr. He, and of course nessalin, are often the Bad Men. They take out the trash as they see it. Being a dick about it or dismissive only hurts their cause. Sure it's therapeutic but in the end, is more destructive than beneficial.
So yeah... Someone has to be the bad man to handle situations when they go nuclear and they don't need staff's help to go nuclear. But that guy is needed and if I was that guy I wouldn't want anyone stalking me, finding out who I was before I came on staff or personal details about me. The Bad Man is a human being, doing a job, even when they may be doing it poorly.
Don't make it personal.
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Post by sirra on Oct 31, 2015 22:51:53 GMT -5
To some degree the game does need The Bad Man. Someone that takes out the trash. Someone firm who says no. There are good and bad ways to do this, Nyr hasn't mastered this, I wonder if he tries. The Bad Man sometimes has to be rude. I think one problem is the playerbase can be a pretty contentious group. If you're having an argument with staff and you're right, they lose face and lose their power. If they aren't gracious enough in acknowledging when they're wrong or if the contentious player is too overbearing, it might be seen as a threat to their power so they execute that power to remove the threat. This happens all the time. They expect players to always be the conscientious ones and play the "but we're only human" card. Yeah I get it, the game is a lot of work and manners and niceties wear thin sometimes. Now back to Nyr. He, and of course nessalin, are often the Bad Men. They take out the trash as they see it. Being a dick about it or dismissive only hurts their cause. Sure it's therapeutic but in the end, is more destructive than beneficial. So yeah... Someone has to be the bad man to handle situations when they go nuclear and they don't need staff's help to go nuclear. But that guy is needed and if I was that guy I wouldn't want anyone stalking me, finding out who I was before I came on staff or personal details about me. The Bad Man is a human being, doing a job, even when they may be doing it poorly. Don't make it personal. I honestly believe that Nyr and Nessalin are bad human beings. That they're in fact, the trash that someone else should've taken out a long time ago. But like another poster said...the bureaucratic mission creep on Armageddon is so severe, that it basically requires someone to manage it as a full time job. Everyone else attached to Armageddon that had even a shred of something redemptive about their personality or anything else going on in their lives (such as Sanvean or Halaster, for all their faults), jumped ship long ago. Leaving Nyr. I have zero respect for either of them. I think most anyone could've done a better job. |
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