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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 17:14:03 GMT -5
Hi,
Over the last several years, population caps on clans have become a "thing" on Armageddon.
Nyr's all like, "it's always been this way!!!"
No, fella, that is a flat out fucking lie, or you're really just ignorant about the facts of Armageddon before you started playing, which I trust isn't the case because you have access to all of that information. So, you're lying.
Once upon a time, clans could hire as many people as there was interest for, resulting in fun. Maybe too much fun, so I sort of realize the need for population clans in some clans... in some places... sometimes. Desert elves? I get it. Iso magicker clans? Sure, fine. The T'zai Byn... Wait, what???
You actually mean to tell me that you are willing to limit nobles to a minion each while facilitating and helping build an ISO clan magicker clan in the middle of nowhere? sigh, and head shake. Disappointing.
Where I really think they screw people over with clan limits rests in the fact that they are not transparent.
One player can have X amount of players in their clan, but another may not because they did X, Y, and Z over the period of the last decade, so fuck them.
Some players may like smaller clans, and other players may prefer larger clans.
If you're going to set caps on all clans, document that information and make it public.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 19:16:56 GMT -5
This should also be applicable to player-created clans, and caps for these clans should be outlined.
Otherwise, someone is just going to eventually get pissed when they spend a lot of time making a character and a clan, only to realize, sorry, you are limited to 4 minions, period.
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Post by firekank on Dec 22, 2014 19:28:12 GMT -5
Clan leaders are told how many people they can hire, and the game will be even more shitty if everyone is in one clan.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 19:55:28 GMT -5
I'm just saying, post the numbers so we can see them.
OOCly, it should be fine for me to base my play around which clans allow what number of players, so why not make this information freely available?
In part, I believe, because it is subjectively enforced based on whims.
A player should know if the clan he is joining allows a maximum of 3 people, 15 people, or 30 people.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Dec 22, 2014 20:15:26 GMT -5
The only way to get everyone in one clan is for that clan to produce a shitload of activty. Players are lookng for shit to do. Especially shit that mattrs.
clan caps just serve to conceal which clans are mismanagd and which arent. They help steer players away from the limited places theyd have fun towards sponsored pcs who have nothing for their subordinates to do. Except sparrng, of course. But you can spar anywhere.
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Post by firekank on Dec 22, 2014 20:41:34 GMT -5
"Shit that matters" comes from multiple clans being active, though. Having 40 PCs in the Byn means they will get zero contracts because there is no one left to hire them except sponsored roles that can't get any money because there's no one for the templars to shake down besides other Bynners, and no nobles that stick around because they can't hire anyone.
Clan caps are healthy for the game - as to the topic of making clan caps public, I don't see any help or harm in it, so why not I guess.
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Post by nyrsucks on Dec 22, 2014 20:44:39 GMT -5
I think the situation would likely sort itself out. Take the 'Byn. There's twenty of us available for the contract so I only get twenty sids? I get left behind because f-me chameleon is kanking the sarge? I have to share my locker with three other guys who can whip my ass? I think I'll go somewhere else..eventually.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 20:48:34 GMT -5
I'm an not necessarily an advocate for totally unfettered clan populations, more because of desert elves than the Byn, but I think players should know what they're getting into up-front, and I think it should be publicly displayed, just like which clans are open and closed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 20:52:14 GMT -5
I have been very excited to get into a clan only to discover that it was capped at like a few people. I mean, that is not the way that my mind works with Armageddon and clans... It's like... It's a good clan when I log in and another dude is there to go do clan stuff with. But, that is just like, my opinion man.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Dec 22, 2014 21:14:38 GMT -5
"Shit that matters" comes from multiple clans being active, though. Nope. it comes from leader pcs having goals they can get players interestd in. Because nothing ultimately mattrs. it comes down to getting the subordinates hooked on the idea of helpng their leader accomplsh their goals. And not some silly notion of the game being an ecosystem where every clan is equal. really wouldn't matter. Pretend nobody is playing a sponsord role that would hire the Byn. They would just train people and carry out virtual contracts. And it really wouldnt be all that different from real ones. Is a contract from a templar who only put it in because Staff RPT any different if the templar is a PC or nPC? They suck as an example, given their clans source of income is entirely different from almost all of the other clans in the game. But it's largely irrelevant because most of their income is virtual just like every other clans
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 21:37:02 GMT -5
Okay, let me talk about the specific thing I'm talking about.
I rolled into my only, I think, family role, and though I was annoyed with the rigamarole of the sponsored app thing to do a family role... Whatever, it was worth it because it meant that I would be playing with two folks I hold in extremely high esteem to this day, even if one of them took a cheap shot at me recently... *squint*
So right, we all made Dasari dudes, and yes, there was a cap.
Here was the deal:
There were two nobles brought in at the same time. One was great and kicked ass and played a lot and the other I saw maybe once, and I was playing a LOT.
The absentee noble hired a dude, who turned out to also be an absentee dude, and the present noble hired a dwarf in addition to me and my character's sibling, both servants.
It was so much fun and the active noble was really focusing a lot of energy in creativity, and in general the north was decent at the time. But suddenly, it was like, we were frozen at four people who played regularly, one of them being a noble.
There were other PCs at that time, like a guy who was a powerful indie merchant who did the belshun gear, and others, who could have been brought into that fold and really ignited the clan. But, maybe because of me, and maybe because the noble had run-ins with the staff before, we were locked out of being able to pull more people in.
I played a lot and was bored, eventually dying in the grasslands, and the other two characters stored. Not sure what happened to the dwarf.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 21:47:53 GMT -5
It doesn't matter how great the players are, you are automatically hindered in clan building with those kinda low caps.
Especially when ISO magicker groups aren't capped as such.
No, I am not suggesting to cap iso magicker group, but the inverse. Facilitate where there is interest; do not curtail interest because of extremely subjective OOC "visions" of how clans should be populated.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Dec 22, 2014 21:58:16 GMT -5
It kinda boils down to this: if the playerbase is willfully isolatng itself by all joining the same clan, you should probably see what theyre doing right. Odds are most of what the clan is doing right boils down to the staffer not shitting on player activity that doesnt need staff support. And much of what the staff decidd needed staff support only needed it because they injectd themselves into the situation.
Not happy leaving the megaclan be? Fine. Do something about it. But dont make the something you do be artificially shrinking the clan. doing so means making active players inactive.
Instead create a competitor that works the same way. (Or take their existing competitor, stop fucking it up with your bad staffng, and announce it's now going to follow the same model as the popular clan.) Because theres a limit to how high anyone can rise when theyre competng with 40 people in the same place, so they can be lured away with the opportunty to succeed in another.
Thats something the staff never got. Even back before they started capping clan membershps.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 22:07:07 GMT -5
Scenario: What if, when the Byn got that huge, they allowed the Koman thing to pan out and facilitated the establishment of another clan, who would be in competition with the Byn, resulting in, like on the bay12forums, FUN. BitterFlashback really gets it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 22:08:31 GMT -5
In my eyes you are like 8 karma, bitterflashback, and that doesn't let you play a new hybrid sorcerer, but I hope it counts more than a nyr 8 karma vouching all the same.
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