Gems From The GDB

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sonofnabbak

New Staff, Old Staff, and the Subjectivity of Rewarding/Removing Karma

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Once, in an extremely unfair situation, I had karma removed by a staff member who had played less than me, in fewer leadership roles, remove a point of karma AFTER attempting to use NPCs to murder my character. After my character narrowly escaped an imm-controlled NPC ambush, I was punished.

To make matters worse, I had previously responded to the staff member's, who was then a player, attempts to OOCly come on to me... by blocking her on AIM, since it seemed like a strange way to approach me regarding that subject and made me uncomfortable, which has nothing to do that I found her in no way attractive.

What I find unfair to people who have played this game for a long time is that staff who are "new to staff" have/had the ability to remove karma granted to players by OG imms who have moved on to greener pastures, imms who had a different point of view.

Now, with new criteria for awarding karma, and with the staff members who originally taught me/took me under their wing long gone, I cannot help but to bring attention to the overtly subjective nature when it comes to awarding/removing karma, especially considering that one staff member who claimed "You will never, ever play in ones of my clans again" is now a higher level imm.

So, I suppose my question is broad, but I am curious if staff members have any input when it comes to the changing of imms and the subjectivity that comes into play insofar as awarding/removing karma goes, especially in relation to long term players who earned karma through hard work that isn't even readily discernable to fresh staff members.

Having played this game for 15 years, literally OVER half of my life, I feel like a blip-on-the-radar imm should not have the power/ability to remove karma granted by figurehead staff members, especially when the player is not spoken to or asked questions beforehand, and especially when OOC considerations/interactions are a factor.

This isn't a post with the intention of finger-pointing, arguing, or expressing anger. Instead, I am just curious on your views regarding "the changing on the guard" with imms and how players can be rewarded and/or punished based entirely on subjectivity... and how these subjective views/judgments might be influenced by personal opinion. resulting in unequally distributed punishments contingent solely on the whims of staff members who may or may not have any clue regarding the history of that player and who may or may not allow personal biases to interfere with the system.

I am very pleased with a lot of what I'm seeing on Arm and am proud of current goings-on, but I think it is extremely weak to still suffer a penalty from an immortal who was a creep and arguably attacked my actions out of vengeance, not a genuine desire to see the game be improved.

This happened 7 or so years ago, and that staff member is long ago, so please realize that this is not a critique of contemporary staff.

I really feel that players are negatively affected when they are judged on matters that are open to interpration, and I think one incident such as this can create a generally hostile attitude between players and staff that lasts for years, or in my case, the better part of a decade. That, along with other episodes, really cause me to not view the staff as people to collaborate with, but as people that I should be wary of, which is a shame because there have been times in my Arm career when the complete opposite was true.
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nessalin
Board Administrator
Posts: 69

Re: New Staff, Old Staff, and the Subjectivity of Rewarding/Removing Karma

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Quote from: sonofnabbak
Having played this game for 15 years, literally OVER half of my life

Is that supposed to be a long time? Can I disregard your posts because your'e so new compared to me like you're implying we should do to staff members that are newer than you?

Quote from: sonofnabbak
This isn't a post with the intention of finger-pointing, arguing, or expressing anger.

disingenuous

Quote from: sonofnabbak
I really feel that players are negatively affected when they are judged on matters that are open to interpration

Just not the other way around, I guess.

Quote from: sonofnabbak
a generally hostile attitude between players and staff that lasts for years, or in my case, the better part of a decade.

Congratulations, HOSTILE is today's secret cash word on KARM 109.7! I'll be contacting you later to give you your prize.
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Nyr
Producer
Posts: 8340

Re: New Staff, Old Staff, and the Subjectivity of Rewarding/Removing Karma

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Just as you may find that situation unfair based on your reckoning and retelling of it, I imagine that it would be unfair to use this board as a platform to rehash whatever issues you had with losing karma more than seven years ago. However, you've broached the subject, so we'll explore what we can in a public environment.

Quote from: sonofnabbak
Once, in an extremely unfair situation, I had karma removed by a staff member who had played less than me, in fewer leadership roles, remove a point of karma AFTER attempting to use NPCs to murder my character. After my character narrowly escaped an imm-controlled NPC ambush, I was punished.

As it turns out, length of time playing the game is only one factor in selecting players that have applied to become staff members. So is leadership role history, which (arguably) is not even a requirement, though it is taken into account. You assert that someone that started playing after you, that hasn't done what you've done...that person couldn't possibly have the experience to be a staff member. I know you're specifically talking about them taking away your karma, but this is part of the job description of staff members in general--assessing roleplay, etc--and if you follow that rabbit hole, it leads to that conclusion. You don't think that any staffer that started playing after you started playing is able to do their volunteer job properly.

I've skipped the quote about your personal life and/or imagined(?) advances as this is not relevant to the game, and frankly, it's not appropriate to discuss here; I'm not sure why you thought that would be a good idea. You've brought this up before via a request and had the Producers (then called Overlords) tell you that senior staff back the actions of other staff members--particularly the one that docked you karma--and that karma removal is not done without consultation among other staff members. You were also told then--and several times--that no, this staff member was not acting on a whim or on their own.

Quote from: sonofnabbak
What I find unfair to people who have played this game for a long time is that staff who are "new to staff" have/had the ability to remove karma granted to players by OG imms who have moved on to greener pastures, imms who had a different point of view.

Karma granted that is older than a certain point tends to be viewed as something to be taken with a grain of salt. We've developed criteria and standards for granting karma over the years, and as time wears on, we get more and more professional about the whole thing. There's a process to go through. Whenever people file account notes, we go over their requests, we look at how they've played, we look at a ton of things. Conversely, before a certain time, you'd get karma for "hasn't screwed up yet," and that be the actual reason you got a karma point. Now? It's specifically related to categories. It is still subjective and up to staff, but as some players can tell you that have been through the wringer and back, we do our very best to be fair (and that means fair in doling out rewards as well as doling out the opposite). Is Friday has a good story about that, you should talk to him about it.

Quote from: sonofnabbak
Now, with new criteria for awarding karma, and with the staff members who originally taught me/took me under their wing long gone, I cannot help but to bring attention to the overtly subjective nature when it comes to awarding/removing karma, especially considering that one staff member who claimed "You will never, ever play in ones of my clans again" is now a higher level imm.

I am the staffer that told you that.

Administrators have some leeway in the process of administrating their area. In extreme scenarios, they are the ones that make decisions that are not exactly pleasant--things like storage and the like. I don't mean storage that players request, I mean forced storage; cases where a player has done something egregious enough to merit their PC being removed from the game. This sort of thing is conferred among other admin+, but the final call comes down to that Administrator.

One of the other things we can do (though rarely, and sparingly--in fact, it has only been done three times) is request that players NOT play in our clans. This is a last resort option that is generally considered a step prior to more vigorous action taken. Why does it get to this point? Usually communication issues, a history of disrespectful behavior, attitude problems, or generally just creating negativity and drama in an OOC way. In the cases where I've requested this, I've added a caveat: if I end up rotating into your clan, feel free to remain, but the instant you create any more of the drama/attitude/etc stuff that you were doing before, I will store your character.

To put it simply, this is an option employed as a last resort to keep you playing, to keep us staffing, and keep both parties happy without having to ban someone.

In your case, this was the first time that anyone had to do this. This is what you were told after you said that I was rude in denying your e-mailed request to be a Byn Sergeant and to use the request tool:

It is not rude--it is a statement of fact. It is certainly blunt, though, so I will elaborate.

I do not have any interest in having you in a leadership position in any clan I am responsible for. I doubt many other staffers would give you a chance either because of your documented history of treating staff poorly, abusing them, being rude, and generally being difficult the majority of the time, even when it is completely unfounded and unnecessary. Every interaction with you results in an sardonic, borderline-abusive (if not completely abusive) retort. You have historically never let something be--you have consistently worried at every possible negative connotation in any communication sent to you. In fact, I fully expect you to respond to this e-mail in the same fashion, CCing the producers as well as several other staffers that may or may not even be active staff members, and detailing either in part or in whole every bad interaction you've had with staff. I've saved you the trouble and already included the producers on this response. Because of this history and this reputation that you've developed, I am surprised you would even ask about a leadership role.

Bottom line? Feel free to play the game as you will; I hold no enmity with you. However, I will not subject myself to your abuse any more than I already do--you will not play in a leadership role in any clan I am administrating. This is not a permanent ruling, but it stands as long as you continue to be the way you have been. If you want to change, change. Don't give us a promise you've never kept. Just do it.

I have confidence that you can accomplish this.

Immediately thereafter, you did exactly what I alluded to: you wrote up a lengthy e-mail to staff and me and several people (who knows who all of those people were?). And this is the response I wrote to that:

Feel free to voice your disagreement. The instant it crosses the line into insults and abuse, you will face consequences. I'm giving you a fair warning that I am personally tired of dealing with it, and it won't be tolerated anymore in any clan I'm over. I don't care what these other players or former staffers think about this situation; this (and all player issues) are intended to be between staff and player, not staff and a select group of people that you believe sympathize with you based on incomplete information.

If you want to do what you say you want to do, then do it. We will appreciate it. I'm sorry you feel I was being rude. I stated that that was not my intention. I feel that sending your grievances without context to other people is disrespectful to staff. This likely was not your intention; regardless, I'd like you to stop doing it--every time you've done it in the past, it has been noted with distaste by any staffer involved. No one has pointedly asked you to stop doing these sorts of things--maybe this is because we think it goes without saying. In the future, if you do something like this (or be rude, insulting, abusive, or disrespectful to the extent you've been in the past), then you know the terms and you know the consequences.

If you don't want to fight or argue and just play the game, then do so--stop fighting and arguing. This isn't an e-mail that needs a response--it is meant to be informative. This is the last I am going to write on the subject.

Good luck with your PC and with your plans,

So in your case, you aren't (and weren't) even banned from playing in clans I administrate(d). You just weren't allowed to play any leadership roles in any clans I administrated. I wasn't going to put up with it. I stand by that decision.

Quote from: sonofnabbak
So, I suppose my question is broad, but I am curious if staff members have any input when it comes to the changing of imms and the subjectivity that comes into play insofar as awarding/removing karma goes, especially in relation to long term players who earned karma through hard work that isn't even readily discernable to fresh staff members.

Yes. Staff members collaborate on awarding and docking karma. We do that to avoid the appearance of favoritism as well as the appearance of any staffer having a vendetta against a player. While you were not a direct contributing factor in the eventual codifying of this practice into something more structured, you certainly had an effect.

Quote from: sonofnabbak
Having played this game for 15 years, literally OVER half of my life, I feel like a blip-on-the-radar imm should not have the power/ability to remove karma granted by figurehead staff members, especially when the player is not spoken to or asked questions beforehand, and especially when OOC considerations/interactions are a factor.

It doesn't really matter to us how long you've played the game. Once someone is on staff, if they see you doing something that isn't cool, they may well act on it. And--knowing your attitude on the matter--they may well call in backup before they even think to act on it.

You playing here for any length of time does not entitle you to special privilege, nor does it make you right.

Quote from: sonofnabbak
This isn't a post with the intention of finger-pointing, arguing, or expressing anger. Instead, I am just curious on your views regarding "the changing on the guard" with imms and how players can be rewarded and/or punished based entirely on subjectivity... and how these subjective views/judgments might be influenced by personal opinion. resulting in unequally distributed punishments contingent solely on the whims of staff members who may or may not have any clue regarding the history of that player and who may or may not allow personal biases to interfere with the system.

Inevitably, it does come down to our personal opinions. These opinions are backed by years and years more collective experience than you have alone, and reviewing guidelines that we've spent painstaking hours on to ensure a fair process for review. It will then be up to you to determine whether staff "have any clue" or whether you know better than they do. Ultimately, every player has to make that choice at some point in their relationship with the game, the other players, and staff. Are you the one in the wrong, or is staff, or some other player?

Quote from: sonofnabbak
I am very pleased with a lot of what I'm seeing on Arm and am proud of current goings-on, but I think it is extremely weak to still suffer a penalty from an immortal who was a creep and arguably attacked my actions out of vengeance, not a genuine desire to see the game be improved.  This happened 7 or so years ago, and that staff member is long ago, so please realize that this is not a critique of contemporary staff.

This is not encouraging behavior. (From you, not from that staffer.)

Quote from: sonofnabbak
I really feel that players are negatively affected when they are judged on matters that are open to interpration, and I think one incident such as this can create a generally hostile attitude between players and staff that lasts for years, or in my case, the better part of a decade. That, along with other episodes, really cause me to not view the staff as people to collaborate with, but as people that I should be wary of, which is a shame because there have been times in my Arm career when the complete opposite was true.

I agree with you on one thing: you definitely have held this view about staff for some time, enough so that it has been noted on your account. Historically, you have tended towards viewing all staff actions as malicious, as personal attacks, as unfounded. The most perplexing thing about all of this is that there are several accounts that have had their karma neglected. We have a thread on our staff board in which Storytellers, Administrators, and Producers bring up accounts that have either flown under the radar or what-not, and we collaborate on them there. Just this week we were looking at a player that had never put in an account notes request, yet they absolutely deserved a karma point. Xalle and I were looking this over and agreed that it seemed reasonable. We like to be able to reward players that have shown they are trustworthy.

However, you are in a different boat entirely. You have 7 karma. Despite the aforementioned e-mails and any issues you've had with staff, your account has 7 karma. Yet still...to this day...you seek to antagonize staff and not improve on your communication with staff.

In most cases, we are generally content to leave karma that predates this new system alone until such a time that account notes or filed (or something amazingly good or bad happens to cause us to call the karma into question). Seeing as how your karma predates the new system, your account will be assessed in the coming week under the new karma criteria; I am filing an account notes request on your behalf (though don't worry, all I'm doing here is opening it--another Producer will handle the closure and eventual final call on the assessment).

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
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there u go

That guy's story reminded me of my own experience.

I remember when Olgaris came to Salarr. Basically, a Johnny Come Lately after I'd been carrying it for months. I had one minor disagreement with him about our uniforms and he wrote the most scathing note in my accounts. It was so minor, that I didn't even know he was annoyed by it, until years later, when I got an application rejected. As an addendum at the bottom, was a copy-paste from my notes from Olgaris about how terrible I was (this being years after the fact).

(As an aside, this also proves that Imm staff in general, can be lying cocksuckers. Since they always went on about how if you were doing something wrong, they'd tell you, and not just secretly blast you without giving you a chance to improve).

Basically, Olgaris said I should never be considered for any leadership role or special application ever again. I confronted him about it after the fact, and he hemmed and hawed about having been upset at the time or some such but didn't remember any other details. Well, fuck you dude. That scathing note was on my account for years without me being aware of it. He was more upset at me seeing it than anything else.

That's the problem with playing on a game like Armageddon. You have to accept that your staffer is most likely some pissy little fuckhole whose ability to dole out or take away karma is one of the precious few, meager areas of power in their life. That's why the most wretched ones will never quit, and the best ones eventually move on. You have to accept that when you bump heads with people like these, even in the mildest sense, they will overreact, get hysterically self-defensive and punish you for it.

The alternative to dealing with people like these is to slobber all over them and appeal to their ego, as you often see on the GDB. 

Look at Nyr's response to every piece of gentle criticism he has ever received. It's utterly pathetic. Olgaris was the same way, and a creep on the side where the ladies were concerned, allegedly.

For the record, IIRC, Olgaris' big snit was about Salarri wearing Kuraci camos because it was codedly better. Nadhir refused to wear the Salarri armor Olgaris picked out (which was an old craphole set). But I actually had so little contact with him while he was supposed to be our staffer, and it was limited almost entirely to stupid little vanity shit like that, that I was honestly shocked he even remembered my name, let alone vented on my account notes like a 14 year old girl into her diary.

Olgaris was useless for anything except bitching about Salarri gear and Expansion Division. He wanted to take away and destroy all the old ED stuff. Because God forbid we were allowed to use Salarri gear that was actually cool. No. It was no scrub camos, no ED gear, here...wear this goudra breastplate, or some shit. It wasn't even unique, it was heavy newbie armor that anyone could craft. Hunters were supposed to be docked for not wearing the right outfit. Of course I ignored that insanity. 

But this was the guy who could write whatever he wanted in my account notes.

Poor dude... those who don't understand can't be understanding.

o noes postr uv ats theeng iz kronibas. so owned. woops.

I wonder how much it would actually take to get their playerbase to start showing any real discontent. You get the occasional counter-snark from posters like that Ouroboros person, but for the most part, staff (esp. Nyr) shits directly into the mouths of everyone on the GDB, and they all just take it without even really seeming to realize how demeaning it is. For a community with so many angry departees and such a blatantly corrupt adminsitration, they really just seem completely resigned. They're remarkably tolerant of the wholesale abuse they're treated to.