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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 19:40:48 GMT -5
Mainly, and this being completely honest. I still hold out hope, one day, I can play a defiler. ... Personally a big part of the allure of Arm was the nature of magick in game. To know if I worked hard enough I might get to see first hand the "magick that broke the world". Its a pleasing fantasy. I may have been given bad information, but doubt many of the sorcs since Uruz played Kiven (2011?) have been anything other than staff or former staff. This is a faulty assumption in that it implies there have been many since. There have probably been about a dozen, total, since. One of which has been alive since Kiven and shan't be named out of courtesy to the player (who is not staff), another who is not staff and has posted here (in that greetings thread I think) who I've known for a bit though we talk erratically at best. And possibly a few others. I've yet to see proof or hear real word of any of those others. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 21:38:07 GMT -5
That was somewhat my point, Anaiah. Several hundred people play Arm. In the last four years there have seemingly been less than a dozen sorcs. The rumor mill suggests that at least four of those were Storytellers.
I've been able to count seven non-templar psions. and I have no illusions that I tracked them all. The odds seem pretty low that many players are going to get a crack at one of these roles without becoming staff.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 22:09:26 GMT -5
They really arent. In fact, if you've never been a sorc and are within 3 karma reach, the odds of you getting a sorc role are pretty high. Not absolute, but high. Problem is ... you might die pretty quick. And getting a sorc a 'second' time, as in ... Not a "I want to try the role out at least once" clause, is a lot more difficult.
Some of those sorcs that were mentioned here. Shattered, Kivan, Hasan. They've been playing for ... years, before anything notable happened to them.
Lulz. How many Sorcs did you kill as Flint Sky? If I recall correctly, SR killed two. SLK killed two in the period between 2008-2010. I might be off on those numbers.
A lot of sorcs also store. People confuse themselves, complicate themselves to a point of becoming an unbearable role and store.
Generally speaking. You can assume there is at least one sorc running around at any time. But they're not always long lived ones.
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Post by BitterFlashback on May 24, 2014 22:31:49 GMT -5
All right let's put this back in context. What I will say is your reasoning for nerfing/removing magicker roles is based entirely in self-preservation. Alright first of all. I am not saying nerf mages abilities. You absolutely were suggesting nerfing and removing roles: So now that everything is back in context let's move on. You want a game that isn't Arm. Arm is not nor has it ever been a low-magic setting. magic is rare but it is very powerful. There are supposed to be mages in Arm, and mundanes are supposed to have reason to fear them. So far you've offered NOTHING to explain how the game would be better if the nerfing and removal you've pushed for went through,. All I've picked up is you want to be safe from magick and you prefer playing mundanes. Lastly scripted plot lines that we have no control over, as we see in tuluk do suckass and I don't think they will change anytime soon, I understand that. However I still prefer those to shit like the HRPT where I have volcano coming up from now where. It stuff like this that really make the world static because our mundanes have no way to influence, or go against this overwhelming power. I'm going to have to repeat what @anaiah told you. Your character will never, ever have any influece over any HRPT. Ever. If the game threw out everything except pickpockets the playerbase will never decide a single outcome. That's a problem at the staff level. it's got fuckall to do with the virtual demigods that virtually run the world.
That was somewhat my point, Anaiah. Several hundred people play Arm. In the last four years there have seemingly been less than a dozen sorcs. The rumor mill suggests that at least four of those were Storytellers. From what I recall there's a hard cap on how many PCs can be sorcs/psionicists at any given time. so say youre one of the few people with sorc karma who didnt kiss ass for it. odds are you're probably able to keep a character alive for a long time. So you make a sorc. Assuming you didn't start in Tuluk you'll probably stay alive a good long while. Or as @armqwertytwo said youll die instantly and be told to fuck off if you ask for another sorc right after. While you're staying alive, the two other non-ass-kissers can't play sorcs. So they play other things. And because they're skilled oldbies those characters survive a good long time. So even if there's an opening the few players who could take it don't know it's there. Realistically youre not going to see a high turnaround on PC sorcs for those reasons. I've been able to count seven non-templar psions. and I have no illusions that I tracked them all. The odds seem pretty low that many players are going to get a crack at one of these roles without becoming staff. This is probably true even not taking what I just said into account,. |
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Post by jcarter on May 24, 2014 22:41:31 GMT -5
Sorc is one of those roles that seems really cool and fun until you realize you're basically isolated from most of the pbase and are going to spend most of your time skilling up alone.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 22:45:08 GMT -5
Generally speaking. Players do have a way to influence the outcome of HRPT. But NOT during the HRPT. Usually, by the time an HRPT is about to happen, various versions and possibilities were already discussed, rooms written, etc, etc. And once the event began happening, a huge chunk of the 'reason' behind the way it's happening is the culmination of the year+ of players actions.
Simply put. Imms arent even looking that far ahead for the most part to script a storyline a year ahead. You've got various situations, various players rp variously around them, doing, not doing, or failing to do various things. And then after whatever amount of time has passed, an HRPT finalized everything and changes the world for the players to rp around with.
In short. Those people who skill up, train, and idle waiting for an RPT to happen and only "then" deciding that they should try to 'influence' things. Well ... they fail.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 22:47:47 GMT -5
Sorc is one of those roles that seems really cool and fun until you realize you're basically isolated from most of the pbase and are going to spend most of your time skilling up alone. This. Once the player gets over the whole, "Muhahahah. I am sooo powerful, look at me in awe and wonder." Sorcs arent really all that interesting. The demand on them is high, the need to deal with Imms is high, the requirements are high, the enjoyment is actually pretty low. |
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Post by BitterFlashback on May 24, 2014 22:59:24 GMT -5
Generally speaking. Players do have a way to influence the outcome of HRPT. But NOT during the HRPT. Usually, by the time an HRPT is about to happen, various versions and possibilities were already discussed, rooms written, etc, etc. And once the event began happening, a huge chunk of the 'reason' behind the way it's happening is the culmination of the year+ of players actions. This is entirely false. Every HRPT since the first one has had a pre-determined outcome. There are quite a few RPTs I could say the same about. If you truly believe what you said Id like some solid examples. Because I can flatly tell you the Rebellion HRPT, both Kuraci HRPTs (the loss and retaking of Luirs), the Elementals Storm the Cities HRPT, the Copper War HRPT, and the recent War So We can Teleport a Volcano HRPT were all pre-planned entirely without the slightest shit given for how players would influence the outcome. They made the stakes and the outcomes so complicated they literally cant let players have a possiblity of changing them. And their retarded fanfiction-level writing only work if they don't have to worry about which scene to put on. EDIT: And they're all planned behind the scenes months in advance. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 23:06:06 GMT -5
Generally speaking. Players do have a way to influence the outcome of HRPT. But NOT during the HRPT. Usually, by the time an HRPT is about to happen, various versions and possibilities were already discussed, rooms written, etc, etc. And once the event began happening, a huge chunk of the 'reason' behind the way it's happening is the culmination of the year+ of players actions. Simply put. Imms arent even looking that far ahead for the most part to script a storyline a year ahead. You've got various situations, various players rp variously around them, doing, not doing, or failing to do various things. And then after whatever amount of time has passed, an HRPT finalized everything and changes the world for the players to rp around with. In short. Those people who skill up, train, and idle waiting for an RPT to happen and only "then" deciding that they should try to 'influence' things. Well ... they fail. Dude. Reread my post? |
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Post by BitterFlashback on May 24, 2014 23:10:06 GMT -5
Generally speaking. Players do have a way to influence the outcome of HRPT. But NOT during the HRPT. Usually, by the time an HRPT is about to happen, various versions and possibilities were already discussed, rooms written, etc, etc. And once the event began happening, a huge chunk of the 'reason' behind the way it's happening is the culmination of the year+ of players actions. This is entirely false. Every HRPT since the first one has had a pre-determined outcome. There are quite a few RPTs I could say the same about. If you truly believe what you said Id like some solid examples. Because I can flatly tell you the Rebellion HRPT, both Kuraci HRPTs (the loss and retaking of Luirs), the Elementals Storm the Cities HRPT, the Copper War HRPT, and the recent War So We can Teleport a Volcano HRPT were all pre-planned entirely without the slightest shit given for how players would influence the outcome. They made the stakes and the outcomes so complicated they literally cant let players have a possiblity of changing them. And their retarded fanfiction-level writing only work if they don't have to worry about which scene to put on. EDIT: And they're all planned behind the scenes months in advance.Yeah, I read your post. You said players could influence the outcome in advance. I said they couldn't. |
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Post by BitterFlashback on May 24, 2014 23:27:06 GMT -5
All right, lemme address this more specifically so it's clear I understood your meaning when I contradicted you. Usually, by the time an HRPT is about to happen, various versions and possibilities were already discussed, rooms written, etc, etc. This part is entirely true. However it all happened behind-the-scenes on the IDB. Purely staff. Mostly middle-management pretending to give a shit about the STs before ramrodding what they want in. And once the event began happening, a huge chunk of the 'reason' behind the way it's happening is the culmination of the year+ of players actions.This is the entirely false part. Here's a recent example. Part of the recent war was the zOMG Hlum Vanishment that happened in Tuluk. A player was tasked with being a deep-cover Nakki agent. who became a Hlum lord. Who couldn't be detected by psionics. Who had absolutely no chance of not becoming a Hlum lord. So yeah, there were player actions. It's just that they couldn't fail. It's like someone decided that if you have a player as a puppet instead of animating an NPC it is somehow more meaningful when they perform within parameters and can't fail because your story require success. And if he died? There'd have just been another deep cover agent to replace him. Or someone altered by magic to look like him to take his place. that's the kind of shit I mean when I say player actions don't influence outcomes. They can be bold and visible but they're still forced to script. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 23:32:54 GMT -5
You're both right after a fashion.
They can influence them. Far in advance.
But only if it's something that staff wants to have happen anyhow. Because if it's not, you wind up with retarded bullshit like being able to app a family of elves but not call them a tribe because omgballs someone manages to make a tribe that pcs can't take out easily which staff doesn't want to deal with.
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Hardboiled
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Post by Hardboiled on May 24, 2014 23:36:56 GMT -5
BitterFlashback1. I wasn't quite just responding to you there. Someone mentioned having their abilities nerfed, i wasn't fully thing that way with anything other theb summon. Otherwise you are right I do what their current roles nerfed. In particular making rogue mages rare enough that they cannot gather together out in the desert and form groups. This should be more of gemmed thing if anything. 2.What arm was 20 years ago is a completely different game then it is now. The game changes from time to time, once upon a time it was more high fantasy with demons and vampires too. Not so much anymore now. Just saying things change. What you or I feel arm is or isn't may not be what it is tomorrow. One of the argument you've given is that mages add to the danger in the wilderness. I'm going to argue that the wilderness can be full of dangers without some magickal asshole demanding you fear and worship them. There is a reason some people thing there are too many mage hunters and thats because magick sometimes feels so common that begin afraid gets old. You want magick to be feared, you need to make it rare, much more then it is now. 3. About hrpts. First of all, let me just say I don't give a shit if I can change scripted plots or not.I just hate how high powered magick is as a crutch for poor story telling. If you are going to throw a volcano across the known at least put a little effort into the how other then the black robes morning tea and then decided to move a volcano between eating their cookies. And yes that is true world is static because of staff at the end of the day. I still don't like unbeatable demi-gods in the world. They just make for piss poor stories with Deus ex machina endings. Would things change for my character if sorcerers, mindbenders, all sorts of over power people from black-robe up suddenly disappears? No of course not. Do I believe it would force staff to be a bit more creative in how they go about changing things rather then just saying 'a wizard did it' well i would hope so.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 23:43:45 GMT -5
Do I believe it would force staff to be a bit more creative in how they go about changing things rather then just saying 'a wizard did it' well i would hope so. Disagree. I think that would be met with the same sort of vastly attentive, lengthy, and detailed response as all the questions about the Jaxa Pah being closed. No goddamn response. Because people can't be assed to put in more effort than they're willing to. Period. You can't 'force' staff to do anything, it's just not going to happen. Like that asshole cheating boyfriend you always give one more chance to. Honey he's always going to be a cheat. Give it up. |
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Post by BitterFlashback on May 25, 2014 0:00:49 GMT -5
You're both right after a fashion. They can influence them. Far in advance. But only if it's something that staff wants to have happen anyhow. Because if it's not, you wind up with retarded bullshit like being able to app a family of elves but not call them a tribe because omgballs someone manages to make a tribe that pcs can't take out easily which staff doesn't want to deal with. Yeah, we were talking in PMs to avoid anyone getting outed. This looks like a misunderstanding because we're both talking about the before, but qwerty's "before" is earlier than my "before". And we both seem to be using influence to mean totally different things. I think if I chanfe the verb this will be clearer. I'm talking about when the staff decide to do a thing. They plan what they want and it culminates in an HRPT. Players can't alter this course of events the staff plans. Qwerty seems to be talking about before the staff decides to come up with plans, because of what they see players doing. Players inspire this course of events.
2.What arm was 20 years ago is a completely different game then it is now. The game changes from time to time, once upon a time it was more high fantasy with demons and vampires too. Oh FFS. Vampires? I only remember there being one vampire after they added code for feeding about 13 years ago. I think I heard of two others. All sponsored. Dont get cute exagerating about things you think people aren't going to know. Having a tiny number of vampires for shits and giggles didn't make Arm abruplty high fantasy. What you or I feel arm is or isn't may not be what it is tomorrow. Ness once stated that while information was the vital commodity in Shadowrun. magick was the vital commodity in Arm. It's not going anywhere. One of the argument you've given is that mages add to the danger in the wilderness. I'm going to argue that the wilderness can be full of dangers without some magickal asshole demanding you fear and worship them. There is a reason some people thing there are too many mage hunters and thats because magick sometimes feels so common that begin afraid gets old. You want magick to be feared, you need to make it rare, much more then it is now. And I'm going to argue what I've been arguing. you're motivated by self-preservation and still have not come up with a single reason your changes would improve the game. You claim that making magick rarer would make it scarier is a contradiction. People don't fear things they can't experience. that was thoroughly proven in the bad old days I referenced when elementalists could be easily dispatched by newbies. Since the vast majority of encounters with elementalists ended in magicker corpses people didn't RP as if they feared these people they were supposed to. their experience was "Elementalists are sissies." Elementalists are more dangerous now and people rightly fear an encounter with them in the wild. Contrariwise you can still see people being too chummy with gemmed mages inside Nak because they know the mage can't kill you in the Gaj before the guards tear them to ribbons. It's simple association: You're supposed to fear mages; you make players fear mages by making them fearsome. First of all, let me just say I don't give a shit if I can change scripted plots or not.I just hate how high powered magick is as a crutch for poor story telling. ... Do I believe it would force staff to be a bit more creative in how they go about changing things rather then just saying 'a wizard did it' well i would hope so. Then let's throw influencing results out. The problem is the stakes. The staff involved with these things are shitty writers who try too hard to wow the players. Ive said this for years. What I've argued for (instead of your idea for dumping high magick entirely from the game) is for the staff to abolish HRPTs. If the players can't change something they won't care. It doesn't matter if what's happening is "A wizard did it" or "The army did it." Stuff happening on a world scale has no real impact on anyone and no one has any real impact on it. Nobody gives a shit because nothing they have an investment in is at risk. If you dropped the scope of the game and made it player-driven, you'd have shit like fights between two clans of 4 people over small resources. tiny stakes. Stuff most people would never hear about but they'd probably experience on their own organically. And those petty fights would matter more to those players than an HRPT that ended with mundane engineers sinking Allanak into the Sea of Eternal Silt. |
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