delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Mar 30, 2014 15:39:06 GMT -5
No because 20 years ago metal was far more common. The game was based on Darksun and back then it had far more in common (IE: shit made sense), nowadays they've contorted and twisted it into their own "unique" game but it just made the game worst IMHO.
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Post by jcarter on Mar 30, 2014 15:45:08 GMT -5
Because the kids who created the game decided it would be called obsidian, and it stuck, and at this point, saying "hey - we were just kidding, all this time it's actually black steel lolol" would be a profoundly stupid thing to do. The time to object to its being called obsidian would've been back in the 1990's when the game was created. Whining about it now, almost 20 years later, is pretty silly don't you think? as opposed to wiping out kanks from the face of the game, dismantling Tuluki templarate, stopping a giant end of the world plotline, retconning the hlum noble system, sinking the Borsail estate into the ground and then re-instituting them into the game yeah Arm sure has a strong policy of consistency
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Patuk
Shartist
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Post by Patuk on Mar 30, 2014 15:51:46 GMT -5
Because the kids who created the game decided it would be called obsidian, and it stuck, and at this point, saying "hey - we were just kidding, all this time it's actually black steel lolol" would be a profoundly stupid thing to do. The time to object to its being called obsidian would've been back in the 1990's when the game was created. Whining about it now, almost 20 years later, is pretty silly don't you think? Don't tell me that I missed my chance and that the right way to do things is with a hindsight concerning a date where some of us were in no state to know what obsidian even is. I can retroactively point out that obsidian, as it shows up in the game, makes no sense. It's not a gamebreaking matter, but that doesn't mean it isn't somewhat silly at least.
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mood
Displaced Tuluki
JOHN DARNIELLE #1 FANZONE
Posts: 335
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Post by mood on Mar 30, 2014 18:05:56 GMT -5
I still don't think it belongs in game, for a variety of reasons that I'm a little too tired to list. What you think belongs in the game does not equate to what does belong in the game. Something that many players over the years often don't comprehend is that the game was never created with realism as it's core foundation. The game was created to be fun and entertaining, a place for players to congregate that was different from the other MUDs out there. What you have now, no matter how shiny the bells and whistles have become, is nothing compared to the proverbial wild west days of Armageddon. Where before you had true brutality, in no small part because many players were left unchecked and free to stomp around and behave like the barbarians we all are deep down inside, you now have carefully refined and manicured pretension. A game staffed by people more interested in perpetuating their own egos and the illusion of power they (often, but not always) lack in their real lives. It takes role-play to an entirely new level, doesn't it? You say it doesn't belong in game. Why do you think so? The Zalanthas you have is the end game, the last desperate, dying days of a once vibrant, living planet, brought to a strangled end by the very nature of the beings it once nurtured. The Known World is a shattered sliver of that planet, where the game takes place, but is not the entirety of the world. The game world you experience has been has been retconned again and a gain with the changing of hands and endured two radical changes in administration. The history of the Known World and the world at large is no longer even relevant to what the game is today, but there is an extensive amount of lore behind the game and all that happened before Armageddon opened it's doors. In that history, entire empires were created and annihilated and in it's golden age, people were much more advanced and resources, such as metals, and knowledge, such as metallurgy, were far more refined and common. The city-states you have now were raised from the shattered, tribal remains of the last (and prior to some bastardizations, "evil") empire, with one them founded by a line of men who amount to being the greatest frauds in human history; using power from the last empire and passing it off as their own. The other was created on a sketchy basis from the onset and has been so muddled by retcons and changes (including a change to red hair, of all things) that it's no surprise it continues to spiral further and further away from the original spirit of the game. With that sitting in your lap now, does it seem so improbable for those of fabulous wealth, peerless education and limitless reach to have acquired both the materials and knowledge to have such a thing constructed? Or to have one of the many virtual tombs and ruins of past civilizations delved, looted and their treasures restored? What you have is a game that has become so progressively watered down, diluted and tamed that it no longer even resembles it's original dream. That you can't imagine a place for it isn't a fault of your own, or a flaw in the game, but rather a symptom of the games degradation over the years. A clock, should it or others even still exist, is not just possible but far more likely to exist based on the often ignored lore of the game. You have vinyl lookalike halter tops, platform heels, hot pants and countless other imports from modern Earth, movies, video games. There is a sword in the game that is the text version of Frostmourne. None of these things raise an eyebrow, be it here, the GDB or in the game proper. A clock rescued or re-created by an NPC of great importance is completely within the bounds of lore, yet it's the hot red short shorts with ivory buttons and tassels gets an unblinking pass. That is the state of the game, today.
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jjhardy
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 288
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Post by jjhardy on Mar 31, 2014 13:21:35 GMT -5
I still think having armor made from obsidian is retarded. It's GLASS, people. Yes, it is harder than normal, but one solid hit and your vulnerable bits are going to be lined with goddamn black glass splinters. Yeah and people can travel the equivalent of one end of Tennessee to the other in 1 second and everyone can speak to each other's mind, regardless of the language barrier, for these reasons, why shouldn't obsidian exist the way it does in ARM.?
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Mar 31, 2014 15:47:15 GMT -5
Suspension of disbelief is one thing regarding psionics/magic/traveling. I can deal with those things because they are the fantasy aspects of the game. If obsidian isn't going to function like normal "earth" obsidian then you probably shouldn't be calling it obsidian in the first place. Also psionics and magic are all well documented things as well. It's called psionics for a reason. We all know how it works from other fantasy works. Magic has been around since Tolkien, we get it, people can conjure fireballs and turn invisible. None of this means that you should take a well known phenomenon like lightning and suddenly start calling it rain. Lightning is lightning and rain is rain. Obsidian should be just that, fucking obsidian.
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Post by jcarter on Mar 31, 2014 17:47:26 GMT -5
Travel is a gameplay issue. There's two options in creating a reasonable travel atmosphere: either give players the freedom of choosing how fast/slow they want to traverse things with less overall rooms (creating predictable chokepoints and leading to more outdoor interaction) or make a massive number of filler rooms that you can only reasonably cross the room through speedwalking and takes way longer than anticipated for those who stop and smell the roses.
Psionics is a lore as well as gameplay thing. In Dark Sun, everyone possessed some psionic talent. In arm this is replaced by everyone having access to the contact skill, which also doubles as the 'tell' function that's featured on other MUDs.
As far as obsidian goes, in the state of the game now it's literally metal except it has a different name. It functions just like metal in creating sharp and hardy weapons (can't remember the last time I saw one splinter), making tough breastplates, formed into replacements for metal coins, used as keys for locks, etc. Why call it obsidian if it's going to function exactly like metal?
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Post by BitterFlashback on Mar 31, 2014 21:05:57 GMT -5
Normally I'd be more polite on my first post. but in this case I'm already sick of the humbler-than-thou attitude from the "get over it" side.
There's reason for calling something by its real name in a fantasy/sci-fi setting. that reason? because you want people to know something's properties by name without typing help isilt. If you take a thing like "obsidian" and make it behave like metal you're an idiot. There is no other option. Why not? why is this objectively stupid? Youre using a name to convey immediate recognition to your audience knowing full-well you're actually immediately misinforming them.
Of course, I don't expect you all on the "Zalanthan obsidian" side to agree with us. So here's what this silly bullshit looks like when applied to something else...
Example: Tell people in the docs all Zalanthans need water to survive. "Water" in the game is actually acid prior to being distilled. so drinking anything but alcohol instantly kills you. But it's still called water; not tainted water or poison or acid. Water. Oh! And everyone's still mostly water. But "water" will kill the shit out of people made of and dependent upon water. "Oops! Sorry, it's not stupid it's *Zalanthan water*. Doesnt it make the game more cool you're intentionally mislead? LOL get over yourself the game isn't flawed just because it's flawed. Fantasy world. And shit."
If they wanted to make an alternative to metal they should have made up a word. To be honest using obsidian but making it behave like obsidian with a little fantasy durability sprinkled on top probably wouldn't get a bat of the eye either. but making it unbreakable? Absurd. Maiking is easy to engrave? Absurd. For those of you googling images of carving, you may want to look into the tools used because Zalanthas' bronze age tech level is unlikely to sport Dremel hand tools with aluminum-oxide grinding wheels. Or tin-oxide for finishing. But back on subject... Minting obsidian into coins with a press? That's metal.
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Post by lulz on Mar 31, 2014 21:13:19 GMT -5
Because the kids who created the game decided it would be called obsidian, and it stuck, and at this point, saying "hey - we were just kidding, all this time it's actually black steel lolol" would be a profoundly stupid thing to do. The time to object to its being called obsidian would've been back in the 1990's when the game was created. Whining about it now, almost 20 years later, is pretty silly don't you think? By this logic they should have never retconned sandwiches.
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Patuk
Shartist
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Post by Patuk on Apr 1, 2014 8:11:48 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I think retconning sandwiches is silly. Making once isn't rocket science.
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Post by legendary on Apr 1, 2014 15:48:31 GMT -5
If they wanted to make an alternative to metal they should have made up a word. To be honest using obsidian but making it behave like obsidian with a little fantasy durability sprinkled on top probably wouldn't get a bat of the eye either. but making it unbreakable? Absurd. Maiking is easy to engrave? Absurd. For those of you googling images of carving, you may want to look into the tools used because Zalanthas' bronze age tech level is unlikely to sport Dremel hand tools with aluminum-oxide grinding wheels. Or tin-oxide for finishing. But back on subject... Minting obsidian into coins with a press? That's metal. Obsidian coins aren't pressed. You're investing a lot of fire into a decision made a very long time ago by someone who could barely manage his own life. No one sat there, pondering the the gravity of decisions on future generations, taking into account that twenty years in the future the game would be populated by middle aged malcontents who invest their time into dissecting the scientific integrity of fantasy land obsidian. The average decision was made on such whims as, "That sounds cool." and "Why not?" At one point there was a jewel-encrusted, solid gold sarcophagus that was a fantasy copy of one pulled from an pyramid in Egypt, when things like that were still considered moderately interesting. It was intended to house a vampire styled war-mage NPC that would spawn upon someone entering the room that housed it. This has no place in the game now, or even then, but it existed at one point because people were far more free with both ideas and letting people run with them. It was more about something being "cool" and "interesting" than about how scientifically valid the properties of gold are in the construction of a burial receptacle in a low-gravity desert world. Metal being rare is a byproduct of other franchises at the time, but there was still a need for deadly weapon materials. Obsidian weapons, also a borrowed idea from other settings, fit the need and here we are. At no point (even now, unless something has changed in the past few years) has obsidian been impervious to damage or comparable with metal beyond damage potential. The small gripe I had was that we never followed through with weapon and armor degradation. Obsidian weapons are perfect, then shattered and disappear as items. There is no chipping down, fractures or breakage other than total and utter destruction. The intent was for them to be far more durable, but not unbreakable and to still be far less reliable than wood, bone and stone, but as is often the case, it's evolution into the more elaborate states noted above were never completed. Bone and wood were intended to crack, splinter and break. It never happened. Armor was intended to break down rather quickly from wear and tear to stimulate player economy and interaction. The idea was as armor became worn, you could have it repaired by an NPC professional for a high price, or track down a player to do the repairs for you at a more agreeable price. It's the original reason for the armor repair skill and why merchants are still required to invest inane amounts of time into the skill before progressing into something less masturbatory. Like many things, this was never followed through on as staff became progressively more interested in self-promotion over service to the game and it's lifeblood, the players. This is why you have scores of half completed projects, defunct skills and a game world that features a number of inconsistencies that have been the source of complaining for a long time. I'm sorry some of what exists doesn't measure up to the all-powerful slayer of the imagination, but "realism" is little more than a buzzword that was never given serious consideration until relatively recently. No one really expected this would snowball into the long-standing monolith it has become. Unfortunately, without an extreme turn about in the priorities of the current administrators, none of these projects will be completed and this hunger for "realism" never sated. The sheer effort in going through the games sprawling inventory of items alone would take several people the better part of a year to adjust to scientifically sound obsidian. That isn't counting the reshaping of the entire world, from doors to gargoyles, wagons to gates, even some exotic NPCs would have to be changed or removed entirely, provided they haven't been already. Armageddon is like a sandwich. It's been built in many layers over the years, each layer a different flavor from a different 'era' if you will. The reason behind Armageddon Forever was not exclusively to complete the move away from potential infringement issues, but also because the game is a tangled mess of code, projects and items, to the point it is beyond all hope of being untangled. A completely new slate with a refined direction and sense of purpose is necessary at this point, as there is only so much that can be done with the decrepit, patchwork game, now older than most of it's players. If that were to happen (and it won't), many of these changes could be implemented without issue and the world brought more up to date with popular themes.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Apr 1, 2014 17:20:49 GMT -5
For shits and giggles I looked this up in my DS handbook. Note the weapon table and the example provided below it on breakages.
Weapon Materials Table
Material Cost Wt. Dmg* Hit Prob.**
metal 100% 100%
bone 30% 50% -1 -1
stone/obsidian 50% 75% -1 -2
wood 10% 50% -2 -3
Breaking Weapons Obsidian, bone, and wooden weapons are prone to breaking. Whenever a successful attack inflicts maximum damage, there is a 1in20 chance that the weapon will break, as per the following example:
Bruth is sent to the arena armed with a bone battle axe against three unarmed gith. In his first round, Bruth cleaves through the skull of his first opponent (makes a successful attack) and brings him down (rolls an 8 on his 1d8 for damage). Unfortunately, the shock of the blow splinters the bone of the axe head (Bruth's player rolls a 1 on 1d20,
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Apr 1, 2014 17:24:13 GMT -5
I've complained on Arm about the lack of breakage on the shitty weapons especially. I remember having a crude bone scimitar and it lasted my Bynner his whole career. I fought tons of shit with that weapon and went off after the Byn with it and fought more shit. The story was the scimitar was his fathers weapon so he refused to give it up. We all know how easy it is to get the elite loot swords from Salarr if you really want it. Anyway after I retired the PC I complained that the thing never fuckin' broke and the response was that there is code in place for weapons breaking. I've seen the code and I know it goes off the strength modifier but even then I rarely see weapons break. Probably 1 in 100 chance or even worse then that. People will shout playability vs realism but the game remains playable, you just have to repair/maintain your weapon. That's why its an RPI and not a MUSH.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Apr 1, 2014 17:25:30 GMT -5
Also.. weapons break in fucking Elder Scrolls the weapons break when they reach 0 on their health or whatever it is. Been a while since I played it but if a game like that forced you to repair your weapons why isn't an RPI?
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Post by BitterFlashback on Apr 1, 2014 20:24:38 GMT -5
If they wanted to make an alternative to metal they should have made up a word. To be honest using obsidian but making it behave like obsidian with a little fantasy durability sprinkled on top probably wouldn't get a bat of the eye either. but making it unbreakable? Absurd. Maiking is easy to engrave? Absurd. For those of you googling images of carving, you may want to look into the tools used because Zalanthas' bronze age tech level is unlikely to sport Dremel hand tools with aluminum-oxide grinding wheels. Or tin-oxide for finishing. But back on subject... Minting obsidian into coins with a press? That's metal. Obsidian coins aren't pressed. They were, in fact, pressed. After the glasshackers were first added, there was a minting press in the office of the templar who bought obsidian. Perhaps they retconned it out. i confess I haven't tried that form of grebbing in a long time. Stuff about realism, sandwiches, and having compassion for volunteer work. None of your feeling-invoking speech excuses intentionally using the name of something to mean something almost wholly different. It is a stew made from red herrings. Yeah. it'd be lovely if wear got coded. it didn't. They should have changed the material. I'm sorry some of what exists doesn't measure up to the all-powerful slayer of the imagination, but "realism" is little more than a buzzword that was never given serious consideration until relatively recently. No one really expected this would snowball into the long-standing monolith it has become. Tell me, when you were writing this in order to sound like you were above me without talking down to me, did it occur to you I never used the word "realism" a single time? I wrote about expectations. when you use a word for something and that word is entirely wrong it is jarring. it forces you to adjust what you're imagining. when it happens over and over you have no means of easily discerning what a thing is by what describes it. Using a word to mean what it means is basic communication, not realism. Second that bit about "realism" being new is bullshit. I was arguing with the imms against making certain parts of the game more realistic because "realism doesn't equal good" over a decade ago. Im also far from the only oldbie on this site. That lie about the push for realism isn't going to fly with most people here. Stop lying badly. Stop speaking down to people. And pay fucking attention to what you're replying to. writing words under a quote is not the same as having a response.
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