Patuk
Shartist
Posts: 552
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Post by Patuk on Mar 29, 2014 18:07:38 GMT -5
You raise some very good points, so I concur. Yes, some of these items have their place in the world. It is not the point I wanted to make, however.
Clocks can exist in Zalanthas. Okay. However, this needn't mean that adding a clock to the game is always a good idea.
The way I hear it, the clock you speak of just sits there, in some important noble/templar's room. Yay? Yay. Huzzah. Good job having something nobody is ever going to see.
Now imagine what would happen if, instead of adding a clock to a noble's room, you add one such item to the blue cavern, or give it a chance to appear once while foraging in some remote area, or anything to that effect.
Suddenly, your clock is not a fixed object, and a player has the chance to make something of himself. They'd have actual goddamn metal. What do they do? They could approach a templar and risk getting killed over it. Noble, much the same. They might keep it to themselves, try to peddle it off, but for certain is that this way would affect the game infinitesmally more than having an idle clock would.
So yes, by all means, add cool shit to the game. But PLEASE forego the effect of 'my templar is special because he has a clock.' 'My noble is cool because statue.' Make people put in work other than 'round up three PC's and throw coin at it.' And once an accomplishment's been made, dammit, ensure there's a way to remember it all after the relevant PC's die out that doesn't involve submissions that nobody is going to read. If your templar repels an invasion and gets a statue, how much trouble is it to add a random NPC below it who, when you use the talk command, tells you what happened there? THAT kind of thing could make the game better.
Instead, we get.. A closed noble house merging with the templarate. Yay. That's sure to have a lot of effect on the playerbase!
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Post by jcarter on Mar 29, 2014 18:11:49 GMT -5
the truth of the matter is that 'metal is rare' is a silly plot point. complex devices that require metal, such as locks, are already in the game. Metal rarely exists is meaningless when there's a million and one convenient work-arounds that them crafty Zalanthans just seem to find: locks made of bone, wagons made entirely of wood, swords made of obsidian that behave more like metal than actual obsidian, etc.
It's so exaggerated that at this point it's like well what's the point of not having metal? I'm not a historian but it seems like Zalanthan technology is roughly at the same level that the pyramid-building Egyptians were. What's the problem with just declaring yeah there is metal but we're in the bronze-age of technology and metal is expensive? What exactly is going to change? Instead of obsidian-bladed weapons they're metal swords. Zalanthans, like Egyptians, wouldn't go crazy wearing metal armor anyway because guess what we're in a hot desert. Nothing would change from a gameplay perspective except suddenly it doesn't seem as ridiculous anymore to be having epic duels with swords that are made of obsidian except it's not obsidian it's Zalanthan obsidian or that there are giant argosy pulled by massive lizards that are made entirely of wood which somehow don't splinter and fall apart. Tiny metal clockwork springs are still implausible because of the technology level and so on.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for suspension of disbelief. I just think it's so silly at this point that 'metal is rare' is supposed to be a unique setting characteristic but is completely ignored and there's always some sort of bone or stone material that manages to work and is justified with mental gymnastics.
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Patuk
Shartist
Posts: 552
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Post by Patuk on Mar 29, 2014 18:24:57 GMT -5
the truth of the matter is that 'metal is rare' is a silly plot point. complex devices that require metal, such as locks, are already in the game. Metal rarely exists is meaningless when there's a million and one convenient work-arounds that them crafty Zalanthans just seem to find: locks made of bone, wagons made entirely of wood, swords made of obsidian that behave more like metal than actual obsidian, etc. It's so exaggerated that at this point it's like well what's the point of not having metal? I'm not a historian but it seems like Zalanthan technology is roughly at the same level that the pyramid-building Egyptians were. What's the problem with just declaring yeah there is metal but we're in the bronze-age of technology and metal is expensive? What exactly is going to change? Instead of obsidian-bladed weapons they're metal swords. Zalanthans, like Egyptians, wouldn't go crazy wearing metal armor anyway because guess what we're in a hot desert. Nothing would change from a gameplay perspective except suddenly it doesn't seem as ridiculous anymore to be having epic duels with swords that are made of obsidian except it's not obsidian it's Zalanthan obsidian or that there are giant argosy pulled by massive lizards that are made entirely of wood which somehow don't splinter and fall apart. Tiny metal clockwork springs are still implausible because of the technology level and so on. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for suspension of disbelief. I just think it's so silly at this point that 'metal is rare' is supposed to be a unique setting characteristic but is completely ignored and there's always some sort of bone or stone material that manages to work and is justified with mental gymnastics. I dig this. The low amount of technology thing is never adhered to anyway. |
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Post by themountaingoat on Mar 29, 2014 19:38:31 GMT -5
hey guys maybe its a chemically altered form of obsidian that isnt as brittle
also people can shoot lighting bolts from their fingertips in this game
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Post by jcarter on Mar 29, 2014 19:44:36 GMT -5
hey guys maybe its a chemically altered form of obsidian that isnt as brittle also people can shoot lighting bolts from their fingertips in this game that's feasible though because Zalanthan electrons have twice the charge of Earth electrons |
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Patuk
Shartist
Posts: 552
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Post by Patuk on Mar 29, 2014 19:46:24 GMT -5
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Post by themountaingoat on Mar 29, 2014 19:58:26 GMT -5
hey guys maybe its a chemically altered form of obsidian that isnt as brittle also people can shoot lighting bolts from their fingertips in this game that's feasible though because Zalanthan electrons have twice the charge of Earth electrons bro do you even particle physics |
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Post by tektolnes on Mar 30, 2014 0:44:24 GMT -5
Yeah, the whole "metal is rare" thing has really become bullshit. Metal isn't rare in Zalanthas these days, it's fucking non-existent. I can remember seeing precisely three metal objects in the game (the dragon statue don't count, cause it's environmetal); an Oashi elite(?) who had copper studded bracers (or something similar), a metal sword an AODer named Cross had once, and that Jihaen's metal spear thingy. Apparently Paryl had a metal shield he kept secret and never showed anyone.
So, what would it hurt to have say half a dozen metal objects floating around? I mean, we just fought a war over copper - where are the items forged from that hard won copper? They would undoubtedly end up in the hands of the Nobility / Templarate, and maybe some lucky higher up soldiers, but it would reinforce the idea that yes, metal actually exists in this game. Also, it would add an element of danger to these items possessors because, well, folks would kill for this metal gear.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2014 4:06:58 GMT -5
It doesn't make physical sense for Zalanthan obsidian to be comparable to metal in toughness. It's like saying Zalanthan water is more stringy or something. Most of what determines a material's toughness is its flexibility and ability to deform without fracturing. You're basically saying that Zalanthan obsidian bends. It's a chemical impossibility.
Also, considering the fact that it's obtained with essentially a pickaxe, it doesn't make sense for it to simultaneously be tough enough for use in solid weaponry like swords and axes. If it were tough enough to make a viable longsword, it wouldn't be possible to easily hack off chunks with a glasshacker.
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Post by tektolnes on Mar 30, 2014 10:44:50 GMT -5
Hey, this little bell is sort of pretty. What is it made o- Read the mdesc before you throw your half-assed ignorant opinion at us. Line one clearly states, "This obsidian bell has been polished in such a way that has imbued it with the reverberative sound qualities of metal." It was polished that way!! This sort of thing has always been a pet peeve of mine. Like ornately-carved obsidian weapons. When you break a rock, it will essentially always fracture the exact same way. It's called "cleavage." You may remember snickering at that in 5th grade Science. Obsidian will always fracture into the same ropey, shell-like pattern. I'm not entirely certain you would be able to carve an ornate dragon into it... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2014 13:35:09 GMT -5
Hey, this little bell is sort of pretty. What is it made o- Read the mdesc before you throw your half-assed ignorant opinion at us. Line one clearly states, "This obsidian bell has been polished in such a way that has imbued it with the reverberative sound qualities of metal." It was polished that way!! This sort of thing has always been a pet peeve of mine. Like ornately-carved obsidian weapons. When you break a rock, it will essentially always fracture the exact same way. It's called "cleavage." You may remember snickering at that in 5th grade Science. Obsidian will always fracture into the same ropey, shell-like pattern. I'm not entirely certain you would be able to carve an ornate dragon into it... A simple google search would help you be more certain. You not only can carve an ornate dragon into obsidian, but some people have already done it. The blade itself is knapped, but the handle can be carved into intricate designs (including a solid round sphere). Really though, someone else already beat me to it but: suspend disbelief. It's a fantasy game. It doesn't have to make real-world sense. The game originators decided obsidian in the world of Zalanthas had some kind of properties that make it a good weapon. It's not realistic at all. Thankfully, it doesn't have to be. |
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Post by jcarter on Mar 30, 2014 14:38:54 GMT -5
Read the mdesc before you throw your half-assed ignorant opinion at us. Line one clearly states, "This obsidian bell has been polished in such a way that has imbued it with the reverberative sound qualities of metal." It was polished that way!! This sort of thing has always been a pet peeve of mine. Like ornately-carved obsidian weapons. When you break a rock, it will essentially always fracture the exact same way. It's called "cleavage." You may remember snickering at that in 5th grade Science. Obsidian will always fracture into the same ropey, shell-like pattern. I'm not entirely certain you would be able to carve an ornate dragon into it... A simple google search would help you be more certain. You not only can carve an ornate dragon into obsidian, but some people have already done it. The blade itself is knapped, but the handle can be carved into intricate designs (including a solid round sphere). Really though, someone else already beat me to it but: suspend disbelief. It's a fantasy game. It doesn't have to make real-world sense. The game originators decided obsidian in the world of Zalanthas had some kind of properties that make it a good weapon. It's not realistic at all. Thankfully, it doesn't have to be. the point is that obsidian, bone, and all other materials have become such a ridiculous workaround for metal that the question at this point is what's the point of not even having metal in the setting? Why go through the mental gymnastics of justifying how you can make an obsidian claymore that functions exactly like a metal claymore, or how Zalanthans don't need metal for locks they have elaborate stone systems that do the job? |
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Mar 30, 2014 14:57:12 GMT -5
What the hell kind of statement is this? Of course your shit should be realistic. There is a reason that every system ever created for any game follows a basic course of physical laws that we hold to be true on earth. There might be magic, and exotic races, but that doesn't mean that the basic laws of physics don't apply.
When you try to twist those laws to justify your dumbass game it's sad because plenty of other games do it right. Read the documentation for any serious D&D campaign and it uses the laws we know to be true for most every system in place from combat to diplomacy. Every thing we do is based off this world, you can tweak things sure but you don't go completely against everything we know and then just blanket statement it with "Eh it's fantasy.."
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Mar 30, 2014 14:59:12 GMT -5
Why even call it obsidian AT ALL. Why not just call it something entirely different.. oh that's because OBSIDIAN is from our world and we are using it so people know what it is.. go figure.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2014 15:33:39 GMT -5
Because the kids who created the game decided it would be called obsidian, and it stuck, and at this point, saying "hey - we were just kidding, all this time it's actually black steel lolol" would be a profoundly stupid thing to do.
The time to object to its being called obsidian would've been back in the 1990's when the game was created. Whining about it now, almost 20 years later, is pretty silly don't you think?
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