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Post by nessalin on Nov 7, 2013 18:17:14 GMT -5
I really like Mr. Carter's analysis there. While someone has already hinted that this sort of post is not constructive, I feel that to fail to accept it as constructive misses the essential point of the post. This point, as I understand it, as that too many of the "rules" are completely arbitrary.
Giving the rules a second reading, it's become clear to me that none of the (four or five) times I've been in trouble with the MUD (many moons ago) really have anything to do with the rules. Let this be a lesson in inconsistency.
On the first day of leadership camp, or at the first day of management training, or (possibly) at the first day of officer school, they teach both the value of clarity and consistence in guiding the actions of one's followers. After all, if one is either inconsistent or unclear in directive's to one's followers, one begs the inevitability of disobedience for the simple reason that people aren't sure what they're meant to be doing.
I've played on other video games that have higher levels of PK brutality, a similar threat level of cheating, and a somewhat virulent discussion board. The staff didn't feel it necessary to loose their patience on a daily basis or to meter out strict punishments. By comparison to Armageddon, these games had fewer and simpler rules.
The whole "assassin conundrum" almost perfectly illustrates the catch-22. Staff won't post a prescribed method for skilling up an assassin. Instead players are meant to guess, learning of their errors only by wasting a lot of time attempting the wrong actions punctuated with occasional slaps on the nose when we've inadvertently strayed in the wrong direction. Moreover, the correct path depends rather heavily on a set of factors that change over time or are otherwise outside of a players control.
I post the last not to vilify staff. Let's face it, the staff are not child molesters, concentration camp administrators or google executives. But rather their consternation over the whole situation becomes laughable when they refuse to correct or amend the situation, even when fairly conventional solutions are pulled to their attention.
I repeat that I hope that the staff do not read this post, or most especially that they are not offended by it. Rather I would like to make it plain that even though I am pretty much over most of my previous grievance with the staff, I should like it understood that I for my part have been always willing to fully discuss the matter, to fully outline my reasoning and both to listen to as well as to learn from opposing points of view.
Let any who disagree with me speak, and speak plainly.
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Post by sunrunner23 on Nov 8, 2013 0:32:03 GMT -5
I wish I could post a point by point rebuttal but I just don't have time. (even for armageddon)
Instead I'll give just a quick overview with my history with staff. And hopefully it won't out me, though I doubt it would get me banned if I communicate with staff about it (notice that I don't share any IC info on these boards, but maybe speak too freely about staff in previous posts as I will here) (also notice that my default attitude isn't "fuck you" but "hey lets talk about it")
I get about 60% of my specapps approved, including sponsored roles. I've gotten one unreasonable rejection just once, all it was "Can't be done for IC reasons" that stings a bit but potentially understandable.
I played with Eunoli and The Plainsman with a few characters, while at the time I thought they were cool, when it was revealed that they were both staff avatars I thought it was bullshit. Even hung out with Halaster outside of the game. He's a cool guy but I'm glad they arn't playing those avatars anymore. Overall I think the change to staff playing power roles like this is a positive thing.
I got one bad interaction where a staff member accused me of trying to con my way into some character advantages. It was just a misunderstanding though, I cleared it up through communication with the administrators at the time.
I got Qoriya'd. Fucking sucks. Staff tells me I roleplayed well, knowing that was gonna die with that character, so they gave me karma.
I nearly lost karma for doing something bad and wrong on the gdb. I was kinda pissed for a few months, since I felt justified. Buut I got over it and have received karma since.
I'm currently in a high karma bracket and I have never been on staff.
Just a few things I'll respond to individually.
This one actually did bother me for a while. It was a problem when I was stuck in clans that didn't do shit. Since you can't train it with sparring weapons. But once you get a clan that actually leaves the city, assassin skills are easy to train. Just use them like you would for any combat skill like kick or charge. Provided you can adjust for the risk required to backstab stuff. Ironically, assassin skills arn't even the gold standard for skilled assassins though, parry is.
What you need here is a management team, or just one guy to make decisions and to direct tasks. And for the rest to focus on those specific tasks. It's called human resources; or basically how all productive human groups are organized.
More like better toys go to the kids that attempt to work with staff. If you play uber sandbox mode and don't send reports, skill up on scrab and just do your own thing, then yeah staff will ignore you until you do something really wrong. However if you make a plan to achieve something (say acquire a metal weapon) and you establish goals that you work towards, and you don't die... then that something might fall into your lap. I'm not even talking about statues, statues are fucking boring. I'm talking about characters that learn the secrets of sorcery and come into league with demons (and yes, seen something like this fairly recently).
Or maybe I'm just a staff favorite.
Granted, the above is in the magicker faq. They should probably stick it into the rules somewhere. But then, anyone playing a magicker fucking knows at that point not to do this. Trying to lawyer your way out of it would earn you an even faster ban. I do however agree that consistency is a good thing, but anyone posting the inner workings of the mud here should expect a lifetime ban.
This is it here. It's where all your previous arguments go to waste. Cutting away the hyperbole, I get maybe three points.
1) Staff shouldn't police their own game, they do.
2) Because they police their game,and spend time at this task, they are also control freak sociopaths.
3) For added sauce, anyone who can't see the logic above is mentally impaired.
I could simply take your argument at face value and perhaps agree with you that these staff are obsessively psychotic. Or I could recognize this logic to be ad hominem resulting from bad previous experience with staff. Of which I can't even speak to.
And while I can't give a true refutation, my guess is that policing this forum doesn't make staff feel strong. It probably makes them feel like shit. I know if someone tried to attack me for something I helped build, and then claimed truth to power, I would be inches from a "fuck it, I'll take my ball and just go home".
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Post by sunrunner23 on Nov 8, 2013 0:34:03 GMT -5
Wow, I guess I really did find the time for this.
I think this is gonna be my very last though. Good luck.
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Post by jcarter on Nov 8, 2013 11:14:26 GMT -5
sunrunner23 I'm pretty sick of you at this point and your MO of misrepresenting everything people with differing opinions say to fit your narrative. I'll extend you the courtesy though of going through your post that I take issue with point by point and actually refuting it, rather than quoting it and summing it up as the most possible extreme case like you did with me. This is it here. It's where all your previous arguments go to waste. Cutting away the hyperbole, I get maybe three points. 1) Staff shouldn't police their own game, they do. I literally never said this nor insinuated it. Let's go back and look at the relevant portions: Punishing players for talking about topics outside of official forums and venues is not policing the game: it's policing people's discussions that take place outside. You can hem and haw all day about what-ifs and do examples of how it can impact other players so therefore people should not be allowed to talk about this video game and therefore it's WELL TECHNICALLY policing the game, but that's bullshit. People are punished for having discussions in a place outside of Armageddon MUD. You seemed fond of your bar analogy and keep having mix-ups when I talk about things not in terms of it, so let me break it down for you: Mike and Dave go to the Local Bar. After having a few drinks and while waiting at the bus stop, they talk about how they dislike the owner and he overcharges the revenue. Jenny, the owner of the bar, hides at the bus stop to see if Mike and Dave are saying anything negative about her or talking about how she waters down her liquor. She sees that they are, and bans them from the bar. That's not policing the bar. That's policing the discussion that happens about it. Players aren't punished for actions they took in the game, nor actions that affected the game. They're being punished for talking about the wrong topics (which are never actually defined or justified in any way) it in a place unaffiliated with Armageddon MUD. See above for issues about how banning players for talking about offsite forums is not policing their game. I never used the word 'sociopath' or implied it, which leads me to believe you either don't understand what a sociopath is or you're continuing your pattern of shitposting. Considering the little drive-bys you like to do of misstating everyone's position and tearing down those strawmen, I'm going to assume this is sunrunner23 shitposting again. At this point I'm really believing this even more as you can't seem to separate a game from an offsite, player-run, unaffiliated forum nor see any possible reason why someone might find the lengths that staff go through to track down and punish players to be anything short of zealous. Never said nor implied obsessively psychotic. My 'logic' being, as I've quoted you so far, that I literally believe that staff should not police their game at all and that I also believe that they are 'sociopaths' and 'obsessive psychopaths'. Again, I'm quoting you here as these were your words and things I've never actually said nor implied. sunrunner23 I'm noticing a large pattern of shitposting on this board, specifically coming from you and a select few others. So I'm going to lay this down right now for everyone to see. If you can't post without turning everyone's opinions into a 'oh so you think staff is literally worse than hitler' and actually discuss specific incidents, I'm going to ban you. You know what you're doing, don't play dumb. These false dichotomy posts of people interpreting any criticism of staff must mean the posters are ungrateful and hate all staff are wearing pretty thin and doing nothing but turning this place into the GDB. If you feel that's unfair, you're more than welcome to start up your own offsite boards where you can talk about how I'm awful. If you do that, I promise that if lurk your boards and see things I don't like written I won't ban you here. That's a way better offer than the staff of Arm has given us.
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Post by nessalin on Nov 9, 2013 19:25:27 GMT -5
Mr. Carter,
I'll go ahead and stick up for Sun Runner here - I think you're over-reacting. I'll admit I might be mistaken. If you have a moment, please reread his post and imagine it being voiced by Santa Claus or Mr. Rogers or someone else that you like. I think he's got a couple of good points to make and I'd be interested in hearing more from him, if you are so willing. Thanks in advance.
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Post by sunrunner23 on Nov 9, 2013 22:07:40 GMT -5
I probably wouldn't mind if I got banned. I need an excuse to stop posting here anyways.
Backing up the point I made previously...
Anyways, Jcarter described Nyr and Nesselin as people that thrive by having control and exhibiting power over people. There are a lot of words to describe the exact same thing. Sociopath is one of them.
Jcarter also described people who don't believe in this assertion to be either delusional or afflicted with stockholm syndrome. I used mentally impaired. My apologies, I should have used mentally ill.
And yes it is ad hominem. I could list out all of the adjectives and nouns Jcarter has used to describe Nyr. Almost all of them are undesirable character traits, which are absolutely meaningless if you want to make a serious point. But they are very useful when making passive aggressive snipes at someone in plain view of everybody.
The only point he might have is that staff shouldn't be banning people for what they post here. Which I reject mostly because sharing information about the inner workings of the game is harmful. So banning them is a-okay for me. (I also admit the bar analogy does break down here)
It's also ironic that Jcarter get upset if I try to rationalize his behavior (i know this is why he is upset because it is the only thing he responded to). Considering he seems to spend so much time doing doing it for staff members.
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Post by jcarter on Nov 10, 2013 12:53:24 GMT -5
Backing up the point I made previously... Anyways, Jcarter described Nyr and Nesselin as people that thrive by having control and exhibiting power over people. There are a lot of words to describe the exact same thing. Sociopath is one of them. You're going through some serious mental gymnastics here in an effort to play dumb and justify your numerous misstatements and hyperbole. You know I don't think that Nyr and Nessalin are literally sociopaths, but it's easier for you to tear down the straw man you've created then actually discuss points (which you've failed to do with me). See above, and I'll leave you with this as you seem to be completely unfamiliar with it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speechHere's your core issue. You don't like it when people say mean words about Nyr or Nessalin. And that's okay, but then you should consider lurking around other boards. This is the only space Arm players have to say these things. Unfortunately though, just because people say mean words and personally dislike other people doesn't somehow invalidate any criticism. As much as you would like to handwave away any criticism with 'well jcarter said this in another thread therefore it doesn't count' it doesn't really work that way. The issue as well is you continue to use 'ad hominem', but I don't think you understand what that actually is. Ad hominem is if I said I think the policies of Armageddon MUD in regards to offsite posting are bad because Nyr is dumb. Ad hominem isn't stating a position ('The policing of the playerbase is out of control') and supporting it with statements such as 'it's policing people's discussions that take place outside'. Two and a half posts later is where we finally get to see you directly addressing points made by me. But here you circumvent any real discussion and serious talk brought up in my post ("let's look at the more grey areas. Is putting up a warrior skill list IC info? The list hasn't changed in a decade and the skills are all mentioned on the help files. Is adding information about where the skill caps at IC info? Again, some of this is mentioned in the helpfiles") by watering it down into a generalized point and countering it with the most vague of statements by saying it's harmful. Of course, there's no actual logic, reasoning, or anything given for this beyond well it's harmful the end. Also I got a kick out of how the bar analogy suddenly seems to break down here when it was used to put forth an argument against you. Isn't that a funny coincidence. You didn't actually 'rationally [my] behavior', at all. These words don't at all mean what you think they do. What you did was take one of my post and create a straw man. You've continually done this throughout the thread to other people, because it's tough to actually sit there and go back and forth on the merits of a point but it's very easy to tear down a point that you misrepresent as extreme or illogical. This was a cute try at 'he mad'. The reason why I responded to that part was because it was the part addressed towards me, and others can argue the parts addressed towards them. The other part I didn't address was this: Where you conceded my point that the rules aren't consistent and should be fixed. I agreed with the 'anyone playing a magicker' part, but didn't bother to mention it because it was getting off topic from the original points. I disagreed with the last sentence ('anyone posting the innter workings...') because it ignored the 'grey area' points raised and it's also inconsistent with the rules that you posted. I chose not to bring this up because you've shown issues with getting off-topic and didn't bother to actually respond to any points made. i don't even know what this sentence means but if I don't respond to every part it makes people come up with some crazy views into my psyche or something so I figured I would just say that I don't know how to address it because I don't know what it means. |
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Hardboiled
Clueless newb
Eggs, their good for you.
Posts: 116
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Post by Hardboiled on Nov 11, 2013 0:25:29 GMT -5
Just some quick thoughts on gratitude:
1. The Dark sun theme is intellectual property of wizards of the coast. The designers were Timothy B. Brown and Troy Denning.
2. Diku code is free source code developed by Sebastian Hammer, Michael Seifert, Hans Henrik Staerfeldt, Tom Madsen and Katja Nyboe.
3. The first person to begin working on armageddon mud passed it on to the first generation of staffers after laying some of the foundation for the game. The first generation of staffers Nessalin, Sanvean (who was brought in by Nessalin) and others were people who joined and contributed after. There is a early history posted somewhere in the really old archives about this person and the work he did.
4. Alot of the mud was worked on by both staff and players who no longer play.
Armageddon 2 with its own source code and more unique setting away from dark sun theme crashed and burned.
Some people have contributed more then others, however not as much as the first three on my list in my opinion. Therefore to think that any one person or group of people is entitled to more praise then others is utterly stupid. Remember most of the staff were just players once upon a time too. At this point Armageddon is a collaborative effort.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Nov 11, 2013 8:14:41 GMT -5
Just some quick thoughts on gratitude: 1. The Dark sun theme is intellectual property of wizards of the coast. The designers were Timothy B. Brown and Troy Denning. 2. Diku code is free source code developed by Sebastian Hammer, Michael Seifert, Hans Henrik Staerfeldt, Tom Madsen and Katja Nyboe. 3. The first person to begin working on armageddon mud passed it on to the first generation of staffers after laying some of the foundation for the game. The first generation of staffers Nessalin, Sanvean (who was brought in by Nessalin) and others were people who joined and contributed after. There is a early history posted somewhere in the really old archives about this person and the work he did. 4. Alot of the mud was worked on by both staff and players who no longer play. Armageddon 2 with its own source code and more unique setting away from dark sun theme crashed and burned. Some people have contributed more then others, however not as much as the first three on my list in my opinion. Therefore to think that any one person or group of people is entitled to more praise then others is utterly stupid. Remember most of the staff were just players once upon a time too. At this point Armageddon is a collaborative effort.  |
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Post by topkekm8s on Nov 11, 2013 12:58:30 GMT -5
its always nice to be reminded of such things
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Post by nessalin on Nov 11, 2013 15:38:30 GMT -5
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bastilleangel
Clueless newb
Wielding the Power of Love and Investigation Since 2013
Posts: 119 
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Post by bastilleangel on Nov 12, 2013 13:30:32 GMT -5
I probably wouldn't mind if I got banned. I need an excuse to stop posting here anyways. Anyways, Jcarter described Nyr and Nesselin as people that thrive by having control and exhibiting power over people. There are a lot of words to describe the exact same thing. Sociopath is one of them. Because this is a personal sore-point of mine, here we go. The word "sociopath" gets bandied about rather freely in general, and seems to be making quite the appearance in this thread. Let's please, please not dilute the term by misappropriating it. First, the link to the source material: psych.med.nyu.edu/patient-care/conditions-we-treat/sociopathyFrom the site: "Symptoms Antisocial personality disorder may cause: •Repeated law breaking •Deceitfulness, repeated lying •Impulsiveness •Irritability and aggression •Disregard for safety of oneself or others •Irresponsibility regarding work, family, or finances •Lack of guilt over hurting others •Inability to feel sympathy or empathy for others •Lack of concern for consequences of actions/behavior •Inability to learn from experience or change behavior based on past outcomes or predicted future outcomes •Bullying or cruelty to animals and/or other humans •Destruction of property •Theft" Merely enjoying control over others does not a sociopath make. I'd say that's closer to the "asshole" side of the human continuum (yes, that's the medical term for it  ). I don't believe anyone in this thread is seriously advancing the argument that Nyr is, for example, unable to feel sympathy or empathy for others; indeed, in my own clinical experience, an almost total lack of empathy is the "cornerstone" trait of the true sociopath. Okay, I'm done now. Time to go back to lurking. |
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Nov 12, 2013 14:00:20 GMT -5
I'm willing to make the claim that he is stubbornly thick headed. Anybody who ignores a problem hoping it will go away is stupid in my book and has zero leadership skills. Man the fuck up and address it and come up with a solution, otherwise what is the point of any of this?
The cause of these boards is furthered by every day of silence from the Arm staff. Our points only further proven. What is sad is there are great points on both sides but they aren't even bothering with discussion. As I alluded to before it's an iron fisted dictatorship that makes no sense in this kind of society we live in the western world and it is hilariously out of place.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 16:15:54 GMT -5
I'm willing to agree with delerak that some people just aren't "Good" and are just out to see the world burn. They're just not looking for anything than trouble. These people are just toxic to be around, putting a drain your/my/everyones resources/time/energy. There's this website that I recently visited that reminds me a lot of this that may or may not look a little familiar. There are also some strategies they suggest for dealing with them. I'll see what you guys think. Here it is: www.peopleskillsdecoded.com/how-to-deal-with-toxic-people/ Do you think this describes staff and the way they handle things at all? |
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Post by jcarter on Nov 12, 2013 17:49:37 GMT -5
I watched that Metallica documentary 'Some Kind of Monster' where they were putting together an album by the same name. They were all bitchy and obviously didn't like being around each other but hadn't figured out it was time to move on. They just stuck with it for the sake of sticking with it even though the music sucked and they couldn't stand being there.
That's the impression I get from staff side of things. People are burned out and it's time to move on to greener pastures.
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). I don't believe anyone in this thread is seriously advancing the argument that Nyr is, for example, unable to feel sympathy or empathy for others; indeed, in my own clinical experience, an almost total lack of empathy is the "cornerstone" trait of the true sociopath.