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Post by topkekm8s on Jun 6, 2014 15:18:17 GMT -5
Legendary is a legend
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t2thej
staff puppet account
Posts: 44 
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Post by t2thej on Jun 6, 2014 23:19:38 GMT -5
Well, hand-to-hand would definitely raise your offense fast. Thing about sparring is those sparring weapons cap skill gains, but not offense gains. This is probably what he means. Has this been confirmed, that sparring weapons put a hard limit on weapon skills so that there are no increases beyond a certain skill level? Are sparring clan members all just beating each other bloody for no reason after they've been around for a couple years? I really don't know for sure, but I've heard it more than once. Just perpetuating the myth. I know -I- havent seen skills improve sparring. Have you? I check my skills about every 2.5 seconds, even if I've done nothing, so I would know. |
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Post by mekillot on Jun 7, 2014 3:45:11 GMT -5
1: What is meant by "missing enough"? Quality or quantity? 2: How does offense skill outpace for someone sparring away on a schedule vs someone hunting? Do you mean by hand-to-hand? 1: Weapon skills aren't gained on a 1:1 ratio, like kick or bash. The more you miss, the better, as it takes at least a few to accumulate one point of weapon skill. 2: Offense gains on a 1:1, like kick and bash, but is subject to harsher odds and a longer 'lock out' timer, I believe. If your offense becomes too high, too soon, it will all but remove misses from the table before your weapon skill of choice is where it 'should' be. This will severely increase the time needed to raise your weapon skill to mastery and from how I've seen it scale, it is possible to create a deficit you could never escape from in a normal characters life span. An example would be raising all of your weapon skills to journeyman before starting work on raising one towards mastery. There is a very good chance your offense will be at or near maxed by that point, meaning that the chances of your missing are so low against anything but a stilt lizard, turaal or Gaj (good luck), that you would have no chance of branching into an advanced weapon skill before your character was reduced to an age-induced stat cripple, or force retired because they're a hundred years old. The process of producing a legendary warrior without staff assistance is one of the most difficult and time intensive tasks in the game, for something that can immediately be ruined by a no-name Whirian throwing you into the silt sea for having too flowery a description. It's nice to do once, to say you've done it, but the effort vs reward of the mythical maxed warrior is too skewed to be worthwhile. Kick and bash don't raise by 1 on skill up. Far less then that. Weapon skills take 8 skill ups to raise by 1 You only need to miss more as the skill raises higher. Out of the box, with the worst human wisdom you can roll, you have like a 90%+ chance to skill up on failure. 80+% chance on the one higher skill you get as a warrior or ranger. Offense (and Defense) both raise like weapon skills. Very little bits on a skill up. They aren't special. They use the same % chance to skill up formula every skill does. Every single skill in the game has the same lockout timer. Based on your wisdom. Offense has separate scores for every type of target, with every type of attack. Sparring so much that you max out humanoid offense will not hurt your weapon skill at all. Except when fighting gith/other humanoid NPCs. Raising all your weapon skills doesn't get in the way of other weapon skills. They have their own separate skill, and their own separate offenses. Yep (60 mins - wisdom)  This is the correct skill lockout timer for everyone's skills, for every skill, in the game. I don't know why people think weapon skills or offense or defense are special. um if there is a hard cap its pretty damn high, i remember someone saying they got their weapon skills to advanced using sparring weapons, so the cap could just as easily be a myth Complete bullshit. Nearing 30 days played in the Byn with a character, and he never got past apprentice weapon skills. (17.5-35 points so the cap is within that range) I've also hit journeyman in 2 days played with another character. I've also branched advanced weapon skills in just under 11 days played. Well, hand-to-hand would definitely raise your offense fast. Thing about sparring is those sparring weapons cap skill gains, but not offense gains. This is probably what he means. Has this been confirmed, that sparring weapons put a hard limit on weapon skills so that there are no increases beyond a certain skill level? Are sparring clan members all just beating each other bloody for no reason after they've been around for a couple years? Unarmed combat will make you better at attacking unarmed. It does not make you any better at attacking with weapons. Sparring weapons have caps. Offense continues to increase. Humanoid Offense. It doesn't hinder your ability to hunt, and get skill gains from hunting. After hitting the sparring weapons cap you still increase the offense against humanoids. So there is benefit to continued sparring, even though the weapon skill won't raise. I think it's a real cap, if you notice really fighty higher ups use " heavy" sparring weapons to train. I'm thinking heavy sparring weapons have a higher cap. That wouldn't be how the code worked; unless they took the time to make specific flags on specific sparring weapons. It doesn't seem to be the case though. It just seems like all training and sparring weapons are tagged with the 'sparring weapon flag', and all have the same limitations. |
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Jun 7, 2014 3:52:52 GMT -5
um if there is a hard cap its pretty damn high, i remember someone saying they got their weapon skills to advanced using sparring weapons, so the cap could just as easily be a myth Complete bullshit. Nearing 30 days played in the Byn with a character, and he never got past apprentice weapon skills. (17.5-35 points so the cap is within that range) I've also hit journeyman in 2 days played with another character. I've also branched advanced weapon skills in just under 11 days played. hey its ur claim against mine from what I heard and its not just one person getting advanced and its from two diff clans, one of which was the byn ur bad luck not getting past apprentice in the byn (even I've gotten to journeyman just through the byn alone and I guarantee some ppl here have too) just shows ur basing some of ur opinion on a pretty shitty experience |
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Jun 7, 2014 3:55:12 GMT -5
the only part I would concede is that sparring weapons may have a penalty on timers/amount learned to show the difference in learning from a real encounter vs a safer friendly one
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Post by mekillot on Jun 7, 2014 4:28:55 GMT -5
A softcap is technically a possibility. All my datapoints point to a hardcap being extremely likely, and a softcap being not likely at all.
It would only take 121 skill ups to raise the apprentice starting weapon skill, of that Byn warrior I had, from out of the box to journeyman.
Nearing 30 days played he didn't get that many? It's very improbable.
Sorry I just looked at the log of my megatwink character. 3 days 6 hours to reach 121 skill ups. Not 2D and w/e hours. That character I twinked as hardcore as possible.
Averaging a skill up every 40 mins for all the time played.
The Byn character I twinked maybe a fourth as much. Skill up for every 2hours 40 mins.
28 days and 9 hours. He very likely got around 255 skill ups in that time.
Before counting for the % chance of skilling up being less as the skill raises, that's enough skill ups to reach advanced on a basic weapon skill.
It was -extremely- likely for him to reach at least Journeyman.
He did not. So I'm going to go with it being a hardcap, still.
I'll admit that, since this is all percentage based, technically there is the possibility it is a softcap. And I had such horrid luck that if it was reversed to good luck I'd of won the lottery. That is possible. -Bit of an overstatement but whatever. Lottery odds are worse, I'm sure.
Side note, at novice, sparring weapons didn't hinder weaponskills at all.
They rose entirely as expected.
Basically, the Byn character should of hit journeyman at 13 days played.
I had an amazingly bad steak of shit skill up rolls for days and days and days played, if it's a softcap.
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forarm
Clueless newb
Posts: 100
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Post by forarm on Jun 7, 2014 8:13:45 GMT -5
I've seen myself hit journeyman in weapon skills and and others hit advanced, however the days played/twinked is pretty obscene vs how much more quickly I've done it in just hunting. It really feels like you learn a lot slower at some point just using sparring weapons. It might also be that it gets harder to find agile people at your level to spar with as well. Whatever the reason, joining in a non-hunting clan does not seem like the best way to raise your skills later after a certain point.
With all the weapon skill and offense talk, i've become curious as to where do magical weapons sit in all this? Are magical weapons easy for a warrior with max parry to parry? For example, are magical flaming swords considered slashing weapons in terms of defending against them? With no weapon skills, if the offense system worked the way Mek says it does even if you are good enough to hit agile creatures every time, the moment you attack an agile gith or experienced human for the first time, will you go go back to being utterly shit at hitting it? Has this been the experience of mage players here?
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Warriors
Jun 7, 2014 10:00:01 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by lyse on Jun 7, 2014 10:00:01 GMT -5
I think it's important to remember most clans have some kind of RPTs and you do get some swings in on the monster of the day if you go on them. That's going to have an effect on your fighting skills as well. It's no secret that if you want to skill up you have to make RPTs also. That's why if you are an off-peak player you're pretty much screwed when it comes to RP and skilling up combat.
As to the heavy sparring weapons, I've literally seen a PC say they weren't learning anything with a regular sparring weapon. Lo and behold at some point later, they're using the "heavy sparring axe of death" there has to be a reason for that. The most logical explanation is because there's a higher cap on it. Let's not kid ourselves and say it's for RP purposes, there has to be a coded reason for it.
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Post by gloryhound on Jun 7, 2014 13:39:29 GMT -5
N/m I just read more posts.
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Post by mekillot on Jun 7, 2014 16:24:43 GMT -5
I've seen myself hit journeyman in weapon skills and and others hit advanced, however the days played/twinked is pretty obscene vs how much more quickly I've done it in just hunting. It really feels like you learn a lot slower at some point just using sparring weapons. It might also be that it gets harder to find agile people at your level to spar with as well. Whatever the reason, joining in a non-hunting clan does not seem like the best way to raise your skills later after a certain point. With all the weapon skill and offense talk, i've become curious as to where do magical weapons sit in all this? Are magical weapons easy for a warrior with max parry to parry? For example, are magical flaming swords considered slashing weapons in terms of defending against them? With no weapon skills, if the offense system worked the way Mek says it does even if you are good enough to hit agile creatures every time, the moment you attack an agile gith or experienced human for the first time, will you go go back to being utterly shit at hitting it? Has this been the experience of mage players here? Magic weapons use the basic weapon attack types. Most mages never get a high humanoid offense, and yes that means most warriors can parry them without a lot of trouble. Magic weapons aren't used, in the hands of mages, to attack with. They're used to not be unarmed when you get attacked. Rarely is a mage actually skilled with them. The way offense works isn't how I say it works. It's what I believe to be the case. I was shown, along with everyone else here by now, the hidden offense skill chart. I didn't know how to look at it at first. Anaiah explained how it was read. I've noticed that fighting one type of creature as long as possible, and then switching over to another has benefited characters in raising skills. I think it's important to remember most clans have some kind of RPTs and you do get some swings in on the monster of the day if you go on them. That's going to have an effect on your fighting skills as well. It's no secret that if you want to skill up you have to make RPTs also. That's why if you are an off-peak player you're pretty much screwed when it comes to RP and skilling up combat. As to the heavy sparring weapons, I've literally seen a PC say they weren't learning anything with a regular sparring weapon. Lo and behold at some point later, they're using the "heavy sparring axe of death" there has to be a reason for that. The most logical explanation is because there's a higher cap on it. Let's not kid ourselves and say it's for RP purposes, there has to be a coded reason for it. I'd like to say my Byn character in the explanation above never really went on RPTs. A coded reason to use the heavy sparring weapons is that they do more damage. They'd be winning more matches with it. Could just be e-peen. Although because they -are- coded differently then the normal sparring weapons, having higher then minimum weapon damage like most sparring weapons, they could have a higher cap. They're something I never had the chance to use a lot. |
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Warriors
Jun 7, 2014 16:57:17 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by lyse on Jun 7, 2014 16:57:17 GMT -5
I'm not sure how you're misunderstanding me but you are.
I'm agreeing with you that there is a cap on sparring weapons. I'm saying heavy sparring weapons further raise the cap so Lt. McFme can continue to skill up. You're saying it's possible to have a cap on sparring weapons, but not a higher cap on heavy sparring weapons because.....?
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Post by mekillot on Jun 7, 2014 17:09:52 GMT -5
I'm not sure how you're misunderstanding me but you are. I'm agreeing with you that there is a cap on sparring weapons. I'm saying heavy sparring weapons further raise the cap so Lt. McFme can continue to skill up. You're saying it's possible to have a cap on sparring weapons, but not a higher cap on heavy sparring weapons because.....? " they could have a higher cap. They're something I never had the chance to use a lot."
I said they could have a higher cap. Evidence being they -are- codedly different from most other sparring weapons, since they do higher damage. I don't know if they actually do have a higher cap though. They might just have the benefit of doing more damage. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 0:31:54 GMT -5
Mekillot, you are perpetuating several pieces of bad information.
Base O sure as heck contributes to weapon accuracy. Training unarmed can raise base O. Therefore...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 1:17:01 GMT -5
Keep in mind. Clans like Byns and such like tend to have lessons taught to their members via teach command.
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Post by mekillot on Jun 9, 2014 2:09:57 GMT -5
Mekillot, you are perpetuating several pieces of bad information. Base O sure as heck contributes to weapon accuracy. Training unarmed can raise base O. Therefore... Training unarmed will raise unarmed offense. |
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