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Post by lyse on Jul 7, 2016 17:12:22 GMT -5
Lyse, what you're saying is that the community can be accommodating, if you find the right people, which is absolutely true. You've noticed and learned the ropes over the years. Actual years. And once you did, the game was easy and fun. None of that matters to a brand new player, who, upon logging into a roleplaying game, expects people to want to engage in roleplay. Or people who would help a newbie. Or staff that wants to help, guide, explain and seem proud of what they've created. Or a forum where he can ask a question without having dance around a myriad subjects he does not know of like so many landmines. Or even a tutorial. Something. Anything. Armageddon tells you to 'learn' the game - And forbids you to know the rules. Starting and sticking with Arm was an incredibly frustrating, alienating experience for me in the context of an RPG. I'm certain it's the same for many, many people that have tried their hand at it. (I like being abused over Telnet so I liked it unconditionally but not everyone has my kinks.) Of course, this is very old news on a subject that's been moot since the 90's. I'm just happy I stuck with it and pity the people that have to go through acclimatization. No, no, no and forgive me for not slicing up your post to make my points, but I'm posting from my phone. 1) I've never had trouble finding rp or someone to take me under their wing from the first character I ever had twenty years ago. As a matter of fact it probably was my noob bumbling that made them take pity on me and help me out. Over the past few years I've seen noobs log on and people do (or try to) help them out. I've seen people recommend them joining the Byn (which I disagree with but that's another conversation). I've literally seen people say ooc type mount to get on your sunback. Now, what I have seen is new players refuse help and continue to bumble around. Guess what? That's ok too, they obviously wanted to learn on their own. 2) What I'm saying is there are assholes playing. Yes, there are assholes that will ignore you, assholes that are leading whole clans, there are assholes that feel you have to succeed at everything you attempt, assholes that will kill your character. I say if they are ignoring you, you really don't have to play with them (that's the mom in me talking but it's true). Someone that will, will come along eventually. I'm wondering, and don't take offense and you really don't have to answer; how are you interacting with characters? Do you just come into a room and that's it? Are you doing something that would make them engage with you? They sound like silly questions, but they are important ones. From what I noticed, there are many more players that just do that. Just like there are many more players that don't really have any interest in PC interaction. That's just where the game is right now. 3) The game is easy enough. You have maps, how tos, crafting guides, pretty much everything you need to play a successful character right here on these boards. Hell they even tell you what skills branch to what on the main page. Once you get past that initial grind, you're good. |
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Najniaj
Clueless newb
Information please
Posts: 103
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Post by Najniaj on Jul 7, 2016 19:19:58 GMT -5
Oh no, no please don't cut it up into pieces.  I am able to follow and I understand what you mean. I'm fully aware that the game has people both positive and negative, like anywhere else. In fact, most of the player-generated part of the server history is about those two groups hiding from one another. I think that it all boils down to perception and experiences that simply aren't the same. To answer your question, I've had an impressive amount of characters for the comparatively short time (5-6 years) I've enjoyed arm on and off, on several accounts. Some were short lived, some were active, some were in player groups, merchant houses and even an agent, once. I stopped asking for help from anyone and learned the game myself when it became clear that asking and getting noticed led to danger, death and god forbid, admin attention. Before that however, I died, so much, hilariously, pitifully, weirdly, confused and unsure why, in the open, indoors, in all four hubs. As soon as I had enough and stopped trying to interact with the playerbase casually and concentrate on building relationships with rare, carefully selected individuals, my experience improved so very, very much. What I took away from it all is that Zalanthas is a harsh world, in a harsh game with a harsh administration, a game that you can't know the rules to, because they're secret. And that makes for a harsh playerbase of otherwise OK people, that retreats into cliques, distrusts anything that moves, and kills innocents for their newbie boots (trophy) then sexually assaults their corpse (lulz). I'm not saying there isn't 'also' all the cooperation and friendliness you describe. There is. I've seen it. Just not very often. And I guess that's just down to differing experiences. Yes. This site makes it possible for a new player to get ahead. It has information. I love information. That's why I am here. I still don't think that a newbies first instinct is to come here and ask - if they find the place at all. (Although granted, it 'is' pretty easy to find) And even if they do - Isn't the simple fact that you have to come to 'this place' to get information, is itself a symptom of how unfriendly the game is to new players? |
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Jul 7, 2016 19:55:09 GMT -5
Isn't the simple fact that you have to come to 'this place' to get information, is itself a symptom of how unfriendly the game is to new players? no its a symptom of the difference in what newer players have come to expect due to previously taboo ooc information being openly shared discussed and updated on a freeforall forum the game isnt any more 'unfriendly' in that regard than it was 20+ years ago and it did just fine. the information ppl come here to get is completely unnecessary to understand and 'get' the game, much less enjoy it. staff kept most of the information u find here vague or unmentioned because their intent had nothing to do with making it easier for u to twink or discouraging u from discovering the shit ingame thru direct experience or interaction with characters that may have the knowledge ur char wants however thx to a combo of jcarter making an open forum for ppl to discuss this shit + a bunch of newbies being reared on it to the pt where it seems outrageous for them to ever be denied it, u get the admin reluctantly relaxing their hold on the code curtain. u can just read the difference in the shit they allow to be discussed on threads today vs 4+ years ago |
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Post by lyse on Jul 7, 2016 23:09:48 GMT -5
Oh no, no please don't cut it up into pieces. I am able to follow and I understand what you mean. I'm fully aware that the game has people both positive and negative, like anywhere else. In fact, most of the player-generated part of the server history is about those two groups hiding from one another. I think that it all boils down to perception and experiences that simply aren't the same. To answer your question, I've had an impressive amount of characters for the comparatively short time (5-6 years) I've enjoyed arm on and off, on several accounts. Some were short lived, some were active, some were in player groups, merchant houses and even an agent, once. I stopped asking for help from anyone and learned the game myself when it became clear that asking and getting noticed led to danger, death and god forbid, admin attention. Before that however, I died, so much, hilariously, pitifully, weirdly, confused and unsure why, in the open, indoors, in all four hubs. As soon as I had enough and stopped trying to interact with the playerbase casually and concentrate on building relationships with rare, carefully selected individuals, my experience improved so very, very much. What I took away from it all is that Zalanthas is a harsh world, in a harsh game with a harsh administration, a game that you can't know the rules to, because they're secret. And that makes for a harsh playerbase of otherwise OK people, that retreats into cliques, distrusts anything that moves, and kills innocents for their newbie boots (trophy) then sexually assaults their corpse (lulz). I'm not saying there isn't 'also' all the cooperation and friendliness you describe. There is. I've seen it. Just not very often. And I guess that's just down to differing experiences. Yes. This site makes it possible for a new player to get ahead. It has information. I love information. That's why I am here. I still don't think that a newbies first instinct is to come here and ask - if they find the place at all. (Although granted, it 'is' pretty easy to find) And even if they do - Isn't the simple fact that you have to come to 'this place' to get information, is itself a symptom of how unfriendly the game is to new players? All I'm saying is it's just as easy to find people to play with as much as it is to find people not to play with and it's always been that way. I totally disagree that Zalanthas is as harsh as its billed. There are many reasons why I say that, too many to list actually. I'll list some until I get bored: Food and water (join a clan and skill up there), aggro mobs (they all give you a chance to run, unless you're lagging), money (lol), you're somehow sucked into something weird (walk the fuck away), somebody's trying to rob you (walk the fuck away), you ran into a rouge 'gick (walk the fuck away), they implemented a frickin direction command in Allanak, there's no more lifesworn positions (so if your clan is lame you can leave at anytime), in a clan where you can't leave the city for a year (change your cloak and don't die when you go out) Have I mentioned all the things that kills newbies? The best advice to a newbie has always been to join a clan. Sure, you can learn everything the hard way and burn through characters, that doesn't make you any better than someone like me who has had 20-something characters in 20 years. I have the same knowledge base as someone that has had 200 characters in five years and trust me, I've played mainly combat oriented characters, and you know what? there still things in the game, I just don't know about. I just don't see the game as all that newbie unfriendly, if you take certain steps. If you want to play hardcore mode, you can and there are steps you can take to make the game as hard as possible. I play the game to interact with people, have a little adventure and just have a good time. I can admit, I don't always have a good time playing the game, and when that happens, I stop playing. There are times, I can say I just don't enjoy the game, but I just can't agree that the game is unwelcoming to newbies. It's not a hand holding type of game, yet people are more than willing to hold your hand. |
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Najniaj
Clueless newb
Information please
Posts: 103
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Post by Najniaj on Jul 8, 2016 6:15:58 GMT -5
First, I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I think I'm better then you for the sheer number of characters I've had. It wasn't at all my intention. I was just trying to show you that I'm not playing wax-dolls in the background and do like to interact with others. To be clear, we aren't talking about a pile of one-day-old corpses - just all the faces it took me to understand basic truths about the game. You say you know which steps to take to make the game easier for yourself. That's good, because those steps 'do' help. The problem is that you've been here twenty years and have a global, overarching view of the community and the game. You know those steps, and every step afterwards and even the steps after those, by heart. I'm not convinced you fully measure, what this game and the community is like to someone playing it for the first time. It was a very long time ago for you, after all. In my own experience "Walk the fuck away" very rarely works as tactic for avoiding trouble because if you're in a position where trouble has already found you, it'll usually just "walk the fuck after you", or even better, remember your face and catch you the next day. As a new player, joining a clan means (unless your character is lucky, in the byn or the right kind of fuckable) getting ignored for a few months while you solo RP and spar your way around to a decent skill level, whereupon you are promptly used as a human shield. You can also know the 'steps' to make it easier, steps that you've learned through difficult gameplay stretching over years. Or you can die a lot. I think we've reached an impasse in discussion - I would like to agree to disagree and leave it at that. We obviously both like the game a great deal and I'm sure we're both getting as much as we give it. You've had a very respectable career on Zalanthas and I'm sure that the many, many people you've played with for years are an excellent support for you in game. I'll get back to you on this in 15 years? And tell you how I see the subject then.  |
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Jul 8, 2016 6:56:34 GMT -5
if u want to resign urself to a fate that uve already decided u cant alter, nothing anyone can do for u
have fun
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Najniaj
Clueless newb
Information please
Posts: 103
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Post by Najniaj on Jul 8, 2016 8:15:33 GMT -5
That's unfair jkarr, and quite the non sequitur.
I'm still here, I still love the game and the RP we do. Some of my best roleplaying experiences come from Arm.
This discussion wasn't about resignation, mine or otherwise - it's about our opinions on just how hard or easy it is for new players to get into Armageddon and keep playing. What we think may be different, but I'm sure we can agree that the time for acclimatization is long past for all three of us.
For one, I feel lucky to have stuck with it for long enough for it to become genuinely fun.
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Post by jcarter on Jul 8, 2016 9:40:01 GMT -5
i don't think the game is newbie friendly at all, neither in the context of players coming from other games or from other MUDS.
given that you're expected to read multiple articles to familiarize yourself with the lore/backstory of the game itself, dig through old GDB posts to understand the rules, and then try to make heads or tails of why some players get more options than you before even spend time writing up a character that then gets submitted for approval, it takes around 24+ hours for a newcomer to even be able to play Arm. and 'play' is being generous here. most first time players are not going to get the fact that the core gameplay of Armageddon revolves around spending hundreds of hours skilling up your character to be able to reliably kill a beetle using an archaic combat system that's centered around 'roll dice +offense vs roll dice + defense'.
if you like that though and that's your jive then more power to you. but frankly i don't think it should be surprising to anyone that Arm's pbase is unable to achieve growth despite there being less and less RPI muds to compete with. the game and code is just not fun. if you want roleplaying just log into a MUSH or something, why torture yourself with spending literal days of your time sparring with the same people over, and over, and over again just to hit the not-useless-on-an-adventure level
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yevad
staff puppet account
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Post by yevad on Jul 8, 2016 9:55:14 GMT -5
What I liked about Arm when I first started playing was that I wasn't forced to be good at combat to be taken seriously, like on the previous MUDs I'd played, where a person's worth as a player was judged solely on their ability to hack it in PK. I didn't have to PK, I didn't have to skill up, I didn't have to kill mobs unless I wanted to. And it was okay to deliberately play someone who just naturally sucked at those things. So you can play the game and roleplay and immerse yourself, and learn those other things as you go along. And if you weren't the best it was still OK, you still got to roleplay, you weren't spammed with more experienced players PKing you over and over and over because they knew you were an easy target.
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Najniaj
Clueless newb
Information please
Posts: 103
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Post by Najniaj on Jul 8, 2016 10:57:44 GMT -5
That's part of why Arm has so much potential. The majority of my characters are noncombatants for that exact reason.
Unfortunately, for players without years and years of experience and a reliable clique of friends, being able to participate in any plot beyond the role of "disposable meat" or "random victim" requires that you grind socially, making the OOC connections you are literally forbidden to make, finding the people that maybe would give a damn about you eventually (assuming you can log on at the same time periods as they), navigating the byzantine wishes and schedules of a clan that you often don't even know in its entirety.
While skilling up is a long, terrible grind, your social integration depends directly on your ability to be useful thanks to those very skills.
Understand that I am not saying that the above is all bad and always a negative effect. Just that it's very off putting to a fresh starter.
Of course, some people fit right in and roleplay their hearts out with a gamut of interesting, friendly roleplayers, without the need to grind at all. I wish them well and am a little envious, because in my experience they're the exception rather than the general rule.
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Post by lyse on Jul 8, 2016 11:27:44 GMT -5
I'm starting to think jkarr is right, it is a generational thing. I'm not going to start bagging on millenials, or having to read the rules, or having to rp, because its a rolepkaying game. I admit, I didn't know anything about the mechanics of the game, I just knew it took a while to get good at anything. The lore and the background of the game is what makes it interesting. If you want to play a game where it's roll dice +offense vs defense you can if you want to break it down like that. if you want to break it down to spreadsheets and how many swings it takes to get good and it takes five days of play time to be able to kill the tembo, I can see how that would'nt be fun. But that's obviously not what the game is.
I agree its kind of silly to have to write a background, then have a character that isn't anything like what you just wrote up. I just see the game as far easier than what it used to be. I just don't think it's a game for everybody, but I still don't see it as a super difficult type of game either.
I've seen the youtube video of that german guy try to play the game for the first time and I saw he immediately made the game hard by soloing the 'rinth. But then take somebody like purgpurg, who was leading the AoD on his third character. The game just is not for certain people.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Jul 8, 2016 11:35:27 GMT -5
if you like that though and that's your jive then more power to you. but frankly i don't think it should be surprising to anyone that Arm's pbase is unable to achieve growth despite there being less and less RPI muds to compete with. nor should it be surprising that arm has thrived as long as it has in spite of massive depopulation of muds over the last 15ish years. this is in spite of not being what u call 'newbie friendly' - it has never catered to that type of player, and the game design and staff policy for the last 2 decades reflects that. it has only recently begun doing things in that direction because theyre aware they may need to pad their pbase with the player types they werent advertising to in the 1st place for 2+ decades ppl have always been free to leave the game if it wasnt 'friendly' enough to them as a newcomer. staff have purposely never been concerned with giving players the coded keys to the citystates that u both seem to feel is necessary for the game to succeed, nor have they ever been overly worried about retaining players that arent interested in spending time to learn and understand game mechanics organicly thru play and trial and error for 2+ decades it has also been the #1 rpi in existence with next to nothing resembling real competition the only real argument for relaxing this game policy (which staff have started to do in small ways) is to retain its player pop against the continuing decline of interest in muds overall |
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341 
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Post by my2sids on Jul 8, 2016 12:50:09 GMT -5
Since MUDs are my cup of tea still (I play other types of games too occasionally) Arm remains #1. I'm a masochistic player in general, though. I play on Veteran or harder my first time through in other games. I enjoy the difficult parts of the MUD and intentionally make my PCs suffer through fallible decisions. That's the cool thing about the game, for me.
Pretty counter intuitive for this generation to learn though.
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Post by lyse on Jul 8, 2016 17:40:41 GMT -5
I think this is a really good discussion. Just to be clear, what does newbie friendly mean? And what ways can the game be even more accommodating to newbies?
And this is key: how can it do those things and still remain Arm?
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Jul 8, 2016 18:52:21 GMT -5
Availability of certain kinds of information, such as code abnormalities and known issues, as well as mundane skill lists with branching paths. Not so sure about magick words, with or without the change. RPing through the process of discovering spell words painstakingly with a mentor was much more gratifying than just looking at the list I had and blasting through everything. Maps of well-known areas, trade routes, map of the Pah provided you've applied for a tribal living in that area, an informative bestiary for the more commonly known beasts (I.E. those very near a city) and their hazard level, while merely hinted rumors of distant or legendary beasts, potentially some falshoods and exaggerations added.
Code-wise, likely lower the branching points reasonably for some skills, let pickpocket start with hide (Because why the fuck not?), bigger and badder extended subguilds, possible increase in skill-gains, although to what degree I am unsure. AND FIX THE DAMN ADDICTION CODE, fuck.
Things I like: Let deadly, fearsome beasts still be deadly, let magick still be a mystery to be explored by only those in the unenviable position to learn the nitty-gritty of it. Let those faraway places to be explored remain shrouded in rumor.
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I am able to follow and I understand what you mean.
