Patuk
Shartist
Posts: 552
Member is Online
|
Post by Patuk on Apr 17, 2024 2:00:03 GMT -5
Eh, Halaster isn't a lizardman. He's not even the sorts of person you describe, though I've absolutely met such people.
Rather, I see the issue being one where staff really really care about the trappings of objectivity without quite knowing how to make such a thing work. This is not an easy problem, not for any game, but kicking everyone and their mother down the karma ladder and gating even the application for sponsored roles behind their new system is a bit much.
|
|
mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,695
|
Post by mehtastic on Apr 17, 2024 4:36:58 GMT -5
I'm sure Windstorm's idea comes from a good place, but in a well-run RP MU*, the only players that are not "trusted/experienced" are newbies. Veteran players that are not trusted don't exist because they are permanently banned from the game. And a non-experienced veteran is a contradiction. But call the idea a "newbie flag" and I can guarantee you a bunch of veterans will be flagged as newbies instead of being told to leave the game.
Patuk is right that the staff have striven for the appearance of objectivity. They are often actually unfair, and although the primary type of unfairness that is complained about is when staff unjustly punish a player, there are plenty of instances as well where staff simply let things slide because they don't want to be seen as overbearing. This primarily manifests itself in the complete lack of objective RP standards for the game, the lack of rules for PKing, and the painfully blatant fact that the least amount of roleplay tends to come from the highest-karma roles, because surviving as a rogue mage or a psionicist requires that you don't waste time emoting.
Armageddon doesn't ban its players when they are completely braindead. For example: the last time I played with X-D, he was playing a gemmed Krathi in CAM. He would set up a secret meeting spot by casting wall of fire on all exits. One time, the meeting was held in a spot in the Grey Forest because we were doing stuff with elemental planes. Another CAM member told X-D's character that he would draw too much attention if there was a forest fire. I distinctly remember how X-D's character reacted: "em smiles", "em shrugs". The meeting continued. The staff came in and set our room on fire, forcing us to flee through the wall of fire. A few PCs died. X-D continued to play his Krathi for several months afterward.
Instead of getting rid of its awful players, they're given another chance to prove themselves, which never actually pans out because they are simply too stupid to understand what the point of the game is. They drag down the quality of the game, which in turn encourages other people to set their own standards and expectations lower. If you get OHKO-backstabbed, your next character will behave in a way that minimizes the chances of that happening again, even if it eschews roleplay.
This is effectively the dynamic the karma system creates. Instead of staff having tough discussions with players who are, frankly, too stupid to play an RPI, they instead resolve to dock their karma and hope they leave on their own. Like a sniveling retail manager that fucks with the hours of his least reliable employees hoping they'll quit on their own, instead of having to deal with firing them.
|
|
|
|
Post by lyse on Apr 17, 2024 5:47:29 GMT -5
It’s very simple. Higher karma=more staff attention. Which is fine…I guess. The thing is it clearly was put into place to keep players who don’t do these things from playing very powerful characters and bad roleplayers, but it doesn’t. That means something else is wrong. I didn’t even bring up the one about how communication basically means being a kissass on the forums or discord.
On a normal game, magical characters would just be special app, that’s it. On a themed MUSH, a feature character ie Luke Skywalker is also special app. On a roster game, a tier 1 character is a special app. Noticing a pattern here?
On Arx, my first character’s father was a god. I didn’t know staff from Adam. I didn’t have 10 karma, it was a secret my character had straight from the roster. I was able to have conversations with them about what that meant and what was appropriate. While playing the character.
So why wouldn’t a special app to play a vividuan healer be appropriate for Armageddon?
|
|
mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,695
|
Post by mehtastic on Apr 17, 2024 6:37:49 GMT -5
It’s very simple. Higher karma=more staff attention. Which is fine…I guess. The thing is it clearly was put into place to keep players who don’t do these things from playing very powerful characters and bad roleplayers, but it doesn’t. That means something else is wrong. I didn’t even bring up the one about how communication basically means being a kissass on the forums or discord. On a normal game, magical characters would just be special app, that’s it. On a themed MUSH, a feature character ie Luke Skywalker is also special app. On a roster game, a tier 1 character is a special app. Noticing a pattern here? On Arx, my first character’s father was a god. I didn’t know staff from Adam. I didn’t have 10 karma, it was a secret my character had straight from the roster. I was able to have conversations with them about what that meant and what was appropriate. While playing the character. So why wouldn’t a special app to play a vividuan healer be appropriate for Armageddon? Those application systems require staff and players to have a dialogue about general expectations for the role, to ensure the role is being played in a way that fits the game. This takes extra time compared to the normal application process.
The staff view this as a bad thing. They hate time spent in the request tool and view it as a detriment to hiring and retaining staff members.
But the short-term gain in time saved from not having to manage special applications is lost in the long-term. That's when staff have to clean up whenever a supposedly-trusted player's high karma role fucks up the dynamic of the game and ruins any semblance of collaborative storytelling the game has left. They have to hand out punishments, assuage players' annoyance at the behavior by resolving complaints, put out sponsored calls to replace important dead characters, and come up with new policies to prevent the same thing from happening again.
The staff fundamentally misunderstand why roleplaying games have application systems at all. They are designed to stop an idiot who won't read documentation and can't come up with any good ideas about how to play a character from getting in anyway and messing things up. The staff instead view it as something to be semi-automated, by setting up an arbitrary ladder where being on a rung does not even require you to prove you can climb to the previous rung. There is nothing about playing a Rukkian that proves you should be able to apply for templar rolecalls, yet Rukkians are 4 karma and templars are at 5. The staff are basically Peter Principling their entire playerbase and then scratching their head wondering why high karma players suck.
|
|
|
|
Post by gringoose on Apr 17, 2024 7:06:40 GMT -5
At Shadows of Isildur, I pushed a reform for RPPs (the game's version of karma) where, basically, players got the first 3 by playing the game for three months and not causing any trouble. Most roles and races that people chose sat at 3. Getting anything above 3 basically amounted to a staff member really liking a scene you drove, being part of a big RPT, or being a good clan lead. Really simple stuff like that. The goodies available above 4 were special and usually required some form of work on part of the player; e.g., a race which required a demonstrated understanding of Tolkien lore, or a leadership position in a clan. These were usually things that most players were not interested in - they didn't want to be some super cool psionic elf lord. They wanted to have characters with good gear and skills. So, we allowed players to spend their RPPs on a myriad of things ranging from skill boosts, to liquid assets, to custom items, and even a limited number of attribute boosts. As long as people kept playing, their RPPs would refill monthly and - at least when I was on staff - I encouraged staffers every day to hand these things out like candy. This was before you took over on SoI, but that game is what made me distrust high RPP/karma players. I had a character that was murdered by a pair of elves, and they created some narrative that my character was the aggressor, and no one ever cared or knew that anything was amiss. The murder would be high standards for Arm, though in Tolkien elves are supposed to be above petty evil deeds. I played one more character after that years later but I entered the game with a distrust for staff and high RPP characters. |
|
eugene
Clueless newb
Posts: 114 
|
Post by eugene on Apr 17, 2024 8:56:49 GMT -5
This was before you took over on SoI, but that game is what made me distrust high RPP/karma players. I had a character that was murdered by a pair of elves, and they created some narrative that my character was the aggressor, and no one ever cared or knew that anything was amiss. The murder would be high standards for Arm, though in Tolkien elves are supposed to be above petty evil deeds. I played one more character after that years later but I entered the game with a distrust for staff and high RPP characters. SoI had some seriously weird staff pets, particularly old SoI.
When I was staff, we had one player try to roll in a Black Numenorean (which we did not allow because the game was set in Mirkwood) disguised as a Gondorian Dunadan. I opposed the character application immediately because I knew this player and what he was going to do with it. Nimrod got mad at me, told me to let the guy have fun, and within 48 hours the character was claiming to be royalty from Dol-Amroth while simultaneously running his former PC's criminal organization and making business deals with orcs. Needless to say, I got in an "I told you so."
|
|
|
|
Post by lyse on Apr 17, 2024 9:12:33 GMT -5
It’s very simple. Higher karma=more staff attention. Which is fine…I guess. The thing is it clearly was put into place to keep players who don’t do these things from playing very powerful characters and bad roleplayers, but it doesn’t. That means something else is wrong. I didn’t even bring up the one about how communication basically means being a kissass on the forums or discord. On a normal game, magical characters would just be special app, that’s it. On a themed MUSH, a feature character ie Luke Skywalker is also special app. On a roster game, a tier 1 character is a special app. Noticing a pattern here? On Arx, my first character’s father was a god. I didn’t know staff from Adam. I didn’t have 10 karma, it was a secret my character had straight from the roster. I was able to have conversations with them about what that meant and what was appropriate. While playing the character. So why wouldn’t a special app to play a vividuan healer be appropriate for Armageddon? Those application systems require staff and players to have a dialogue about general expectations for the role, to ensure the role is being played in a way that fits the game. This takes extra time compared to the normal application process.
The staff view this as a bad thing. They hate time spent in the request tool and view it as a detriment to hiring and retaining staff members.
But the short-term gain in time saved from not having to manage special applications is lost in the long-term. That's when staff have to clean up whenever a supposedly-trusted player's high karma role fucks up the dynamic of the game and ruins any semblance of collaborative storytelling the game has left. They have to hand out punishments, assuage players' annoyance at the behavior by resolving complaints, put out sponsored calls to replace important dead characters, and come up with new policies to prevent the same thing from happening again.
The staff fundamentally misunderstand why roleplaying games have application systems at all. They are designed to stop an idiot who won't read documentation and can't come up with any good ideas about how to play a character from getting in anyway and messing things up. The staff instead view it as something to be semi-automated, by setting up an arbitrary ladder where being on a rung does not even require you to prove you can climb to the previous rung. There is nothing about playing a Rukkian that proves you should be able to apply for templar rolecalls, yet Rukkians are 4 karma and templars are at 5. The staff are basically Peter Principling their entire playerbase and then scratching their head wondering why high karma players suck.
Do I need to point out how awful it is for a game’s staff to avoid having a conversation with their players? I mean you’re right, but dang. All of these layers are in place and it doesn’t do anything. Do I also need to point out the reason those meetups get you special privileges is because a conversation was had? The thing with karma is it implies you get special attention. Because you do. You get special encounters, special attention, special attention echoes. You get stuff…because you checked some boxes. Nothing more. This is what taking shortcuts gets you. People that are good at checking boxes getting rewarded. |
|
|
|
Post by Azerbanjani on Apr 17, 2024 10:50:12 GMT -5
Someone who I know OOC who is a complete dumb ass sent me a screenshot of Halaster telling him he has 9 karma. He could have just edited it I guess but assuming it is true:
I thought high karma was a thing no one was going to start with or did I make that up
|
|
mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,695
|
Post by mehtastic on Apr 17, 2024 11:03:17 GMT -5
Someone who I know OOC who is a complete dumb ass sent me a screenshot of Halaster telling him he has 9 karma. He could have just edited it I guess but assuming it is true: I thought high karma was a thing no one was going to start with or did I make that up They converted everyone's karma by doubling it.
They also started accepting karma review requests on April 14. The first request sent lets players gain or lose multiple points, after which additional requests will only move the needle by 1 point. So if your friend had 3 karma when the game closed, it got converted to 6. Then they got +3 points from asking for a review.
The karma requirements are easy to tick and pretty much arbitrary. If your friend's been playing a long time, and didn't do anything stupid in the last 3 or so months prior to game closure, he is practically guaranteed to be a high karma player.
|
|
delirium
Clueless newb
grumpy cat
Posts: 113
|
Post by delirium on Apr 17, 2024 18:51:35 GMT -5
The baffling choices staff makes are simple to understand when you realize they're not about empowering players, but controlling them.
Looking back, whenever I was labeled a problem player it was because I said "this is not okay" and refused to fold. Self-respect is anathema to control.
Blah blah unhealthy environment, road to hell, good intentions, refusing to see the forest for the trees, etc etc.
|
|
punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
|
Post by punished ppurg on Apr 17, 2024 21:29:08 GMT -5
|
|
mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,695
|
Post by mehtastic on Apr 18, 2024 5:52:25 GMT -5
I'm fairly certain that the primary reason the staff opened up karma reviews a few days ago was to try and get an estimate of how many people will actually be playing the game when it opens. The staff probably assume that if you're invested enough in the game to ask for karma, you intend to play it (even more so if you actually receive the karma you requested). Asking around, it seems like karma is being handed out like candy at the moment, with even the dullest people getting +1s.
What I find interesting to the aspect of control that the karma system represents, is the possibility for player resentment of other players -- a "haves and have-nots" problem. This was an issue in past karma systems too, but I think it will be even worse in the 10-karma system because of how quickly players can gain or lose karma and how the myriad of standards and examples just means players will qualify for karma more easily despite not really deserving it. If I'm a 5-karma player writing elegant emotes and involving people in stuff, and I witness a player in a 9-karma role repeatedly picking up and dropping a bag of rocks while fighting a scrab, I will probably wonder why I don't have 9 karma, and blame the staff for not giving it to me as well as the 9-karma player for somehow getting attention from staff that I didn't get. Not a great way to run a roleplaying community.
|
|
|
|
Post by poorimpulsecontrol on Apr 18, 2024 17:34:20 GMT -5
I'm a half-assed roleplayer that never even bothered to learn the poison code that also had max karma. That alone should tell us something is broken.
|
|
baron
Clueless newb
Posts: 119
|
Post by baron on Apr 18, 2024 20:38:02 GMT -5
I never hounded after karma, as playing a sorc or psion always seemed deeply unappealing to me.
But I have to admit, seeing what passed for an 7, 8, 9-karma player in the old-old system (pre-3 karma tier) often made me roll my eyes. Never once encountered a psion character that I thought added anything positive to the story. More often, they were story-killers and fun-killers than the sort of story-enablers would expect and hope for out of high tier players. (In fairness, those could be the silver medalists. It's entirely possible I passed kudos along to characters that I had no idea were psions.)
Sorcs are a little different...there were some sorc characters that made a strong and interesting impact on the narrative. But there were just as many where I was left thinking, "Why the fuck is this dude 9-karma, and I'm like 4?" Stratifying *players* instead of *characters* absolutely does lead to feelings of resentment. Especially for such a small game, it's a bad idea.
|
|
mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,695
|
Post by mehtastic on Apr 19, 2024 5:24:05 GMT -5
Over 20 karma review requests have been resolved, so I figured I'd ask a friend what the typical distribution of gains has been, to help players have a think about whether they're getting screwed over or not.
Most karma review applicants started with 3 karma before the game closed, which got converted to 6. Most 3->6-karma players got +1 karma.
2->4 karma applicants: roughly even split between +2 and +3 karma.
1->2 karma applicants: two people got +5, most of the rest got +3
0->0 karma applicants: bumped up to 2 karma for "fair play"
So most people who are applying are ending up around 5-7 karma except for the 0 karma people. I think if you're a player that has ended up with less, now's probably a good time to consider why staff have decided you should be at the bottom of the barrel at the game's start.
Also if you're very eager for Season One to start, expect it to be absolutely flooded with magickers -- especially Whirans, Drovians, and Elkrosians.
|
|
