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Post by nottriste on Feb 28, 2023 6:43:32 GMT -5
If Armageddon started the RPI genre (or at least the craze), then it can be safely said that Armageddon ended it as well. The whole problem with RPIs is aptly demonstrated in the events of the last couple days. A lot of the stuff Shalooonsh [edit by Gynesis: allegedly] did was enabled by the non-consensual nature of RPIs. In most sane roleplaying games, you have to establish consent before roleplaying anything. To put it another way, think of this scenario: you go into a game shop and you see a group of four friends playing D&D together. A typical roleplayer would step up, ask to watch the game for a bit, and then express interest in joining in if there's room for one more. An RPI player simply drags up a chair, writes a character sheet, and starts playing like he's already part of the party.
This might seem exclusionary to the RPI player who simply wants to chop people with bone swords, but it provides a time buffer where you can actually discuss with other players what they want out of the game, no-go lines that they don't feel comfortable crossing, and their overall style of play.
The style of RPI play is inherently rude. By cramming everything into the IC space, players are left to push their own interests forward at the expense of everyone else. The game becomes less a game, and more a competition. In Armageddon's place, the competition is for staff's time, attention, and interest, as well as the competition to survive as long as possible and become prominent enough to become a roleplaying fixture in a given area.
It comes as no surprise to me that, in a non-consensual roleplaying setting, even avenues of roleplay that do require consent have their boundaries pushed. It is very easy for a person like Shalooonsh, with all his [alleged] foibles and past history, to simply forget consent is needed for this or that, when in general, he does not require consent to push his interests. This is not to excuse Shalooonsh for his behavior at all - quite the opposite. In fact, people like Shalooonsh thrive in an RPI setting because the non-consensual roleplaying style is great for people who don't have any moral qualms about barreling over other people and hurting them on an out-of-game level. Not only do you not have to talk to fellow players before roleplaying starts, but you don't have to talk to them afterward when you pull all the strings to ensure that they lose.
In short, all of the RPIs influenced by Armageddon are bad. Yes, even your favorite one.
Two years ago or more, Bebop proposed making Armageddon 18+. Doing so would have fixed these rapey consent problems you described by at least properly setting expectations. But at the time staff were busy grooming a 15 year old, Thomoto, to play. The groomiest groomer most vocally egging this kid on to play was -- you guessed it -- Shalooonsh. Like the most friendless and creepy adults, Shalooonsh likes to play with children. Armageddon staff have had so many opportunities to change and fix policy but have actively resisted the opportunity, admitting no fault while blaming and casting out players with a modicum of intellect, moral substance, or talent. I will continue checking on this game with the macabre fascination that comes with watching a trainwreck or a true crime show to see if there is any redemption here but I am sure ruination is a more likely outcome than redemption.
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migrant
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Post by migrant on Feb 28, 2023 7:34:31 GMT -5
I don't think the takeaway from this is that RPIs are inherently bad.
It is true that people like Shaloonsh may thrive in an environment where they don't need to ask permission to join a scene.
But many others also prefer this environment for non-rapey reasons.
And people are obviously just as likely to be rapey on a MUSH, as anyone who has played any of those games well knows.
The problem is rapey people, not people who don't like to spoil the story with OOC.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Feb 28, 2023 7:44:54 GMT -5
Most of the "muh immershun" dumbasses from 2010 are the same people defending Shalooonsh in 2023. Some people might genuinely like the idea of immersive RP but they are purposefully blind to all the abuse it enables.
At least the MUSHes point out who the rapey people are so they can ban collectively. Shalooonsh will probably be on Haven in 2 weeks as a teacher at the child rape school.
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migrant
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Post by migrant on Feb 28, 2023 8:04:31 GMT -5
Most of the "muh immershun" dumbasses from 2010 are the same people defending Shalooonsh in 2023. Some people might genuinely like the idea of immersive RP but they are purposefully blind to all the abuse it enables. At least the MUSHes point out who the rapey people are so they can ban collectively. Shalooonsh will probably be on Haven in 2 weeks as a teacher at the child rape school. I doubt that your first comment is statistically true. A lot of people who enjoy immersive RP are in my discord, hating what Shaloonsh did and feeling that Armageddon should have acted on these problems far sooner. And many of the people I played with who acted unimmersively metagamey, broke the fourth wall with unbelievable antics, and consistently didn't care about portraying a realistic character or the writing atmosphere of a coherent world -- are still playing Armageddon. We've probably all made mistakes at some point. I have acted unimmersively metagamey myself in the past, so I can't really fault people who prefer to arrange with other players ahead of time what will happen in roleplay -- this is not metagaming, it is just a preferred style of play. But I don't want to metagame. And I also don't want to OOCly arrange things perfectly to my liking. I want to be surprised by a thrilling story, and play with others who feel the same way. This is a totally separate issue from sexual harassment and trying to merge them into one issue is just inaccurate. As for your second comment, the MUSHes probably try to do this. At least, the ones that aren't specifically advertised as sex MUSHes. Rapey people have to try to conceal their rapeyness more and involve themselves in an OOC community more. I don't want to get into it with detail, but there are many sex pests in the MUSH community, and they don't get dealt with as swiftly or securely as you seem to think they do. Many MUSHes are actually even run by the sex pests themselves. The anonymity of the internet itself enables this more than any play style preferences a game might encourage.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Feb 28, 2023 8:12:32 GMT -5
Cool, so when did you and your buddies on Discord decide Arm staff should have acted sooner? Yesterday, or when Shalooonsh was first being accused of this behavior years ago?
That's the problem with the Armageddon holdouts with the last couple of years - up until very recently, they were shouting down the people outlining this behavior in the last decade. The staff have had multiple turnovers over the years, and they still call this place the "derpboard" even though we have been right all along about their abuse.
"We all made mistakes" is a poor defense when Bebop's story is literally the same as numerous others', but with a bit more proof.
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migrant
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Post by migrant on Feb 28, 2023 8:22:51 GMT -5
I can't speak for everyone regarding exactly what they mean by "sooner". But I didn't even play the game years ago. When I first felt Shaloonsh should have been removed long ago was when someone told me about a long complaint staff had recently recieved regarding how he groomed his ex or something. It was 10 days ago that I heard this (2/18 by Discord timestamps). And then just recently I saw TedCruz's post on r/mud and read Bebop's account, and that cemented the issue very clearly. Then I heard from Ender about how it was actually Shaloonsh who had been the staff who were harassing him and Delirium.
It's clear that the complaints have been pouring in to Arm staff for a long time now. And they made the executive decisions to do nothing about it. I'm not sure if you're accusing me of defending Shaloonsh or not, but I can assure you that in my immersive-RP-loving book, "enabling a sex pest" is not the mistake I'm talking about. It's more like (to give an Arm example): spamming cart driving manuevers to get to Luir's from Red Storm in under a minute.
Edited note: I quit Arm several months ago because I didn't like staffer behavior, choices, and how they allowed players that I had reported to continue bad behavior. My vested interest in this conversation is solely for the sake of the MUD community, and a healthier future in games that I love -- not Arm. I'm not planning to play it again. The last game I played with any interest at all was the Free Zone. But I do like immersive MUDs, which typically get put under the RPI banner regardless of how they define themselves, and I don't think they necessarily deserve the bad rap that very old games like Armageddon and Sindome have given them due to corrupt staff and sexual harassment issues.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Feb 28, 2023 8:29:20 GMT -5
I can't speak for everyone regarding exactly what they mean by "sooner". But I didn't even play the game years ago. When I first felt Shaloonsh should have been removed long ago was when someone told me about a long complaint staff had recently recieved regarding how he groomed his ex or something. It was 10 days ago that I heard this (2/18 by Discord timestamps). And then just recently I saw TedCruz's post on r/mud and read Bebop's account, and that cemented the issue very clearly. Then I heard from Ender about how it was actually Shaloonsh who had been the staff who were harassing him and Delirium. It's clear that the complaints have been pouring in to Arm staff for a long time now. And they made the executive decisions to do nothing about it. I'm not sure if you're accusing me of defending Shaloonsh or not, but I can assure you that in my immersive-RP-loving book, "enabling a sex pest" is not the mistake I'm talking about. It's more like (to give an Arm example): spamming cart driving manuevers to get to Luir's from Red Storm in under a minute. No, to be clear, I'm not accusing you of defending Shalooonsh. It's just frustrating that things that have been obvious for years are things that people are just seeing now within the last few days. These things were plain for everyone to see.
Anyway, agree to disagree on the other matters. I'm not interested in arguing the finer points. The only thing I'm going to say is that I'm very suspicious of people who are claiming complete ignorance up until very recently. The way Shalooonsh operated required a bit of buy-in from players he wasn't harassing to either assist in the harassment or look the other way.
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migrant
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Post by migrant on Feb 28, 2023 8:40:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I understand the frustration. I feel it too because I think any remaining Armageddon player who wants to take a stance against this behavior should quit the game until actually serious changes are made (banning sex pests, making strong accountability and policy rules for staff to adhere to, etc -- basically the stuff outlined by ppurg pallbearer). However, it's very difficult to get people to quit a game to make a point.
I admire the people who have quit over this. Unlike me, they were playing up to this point -- they were enjoying the game. When I quit, I had lost enjoyment due to the issues I'd personally experienced. But heroes like val and Hazel quit specifically in protest to injustice and that means to me that they have a very strong moral compass, and I admire that a lot.
Most people either don't care enough about the game ("it's just a game, you should be able to pick it up and put it down and not care what the producers are doing") or they care too much, they really love the game, it fills a void in their lives, and they have a lot of cognitive dissonance that prevents them from just dropping it. It's frustrating but sad and ultimately you can't force others to do anything. This is a conundrum I've seen people in the MUSH community have as well about abusive and corrupt games, where they try to pressure their friends into quitting and namecall anyone who is remaining.
I don't think that kind of behavior is helpful or serves any decent motives, just like I don't think that trying to tar all immersive roleplaying games with "these are games for sex pests and All Bad"... is useful. We should try to be compassionate and accurate. The remaining people who have expressed a wish to quit seem to have a communal problem -- there is nowhere else to go to scratch that particular Armageddon itch.
Edit: I'm making a game and have been for the past three years, but a) it's not like Armageddon at all and b) it's not ready at all and won't be anytime soon.
But I'd be more than willing to join in and volunteer some coding hours if anyone want to take initiative on starting a game that would be Armageddon-like but less unjust -- that is, if I felt like I could trust those people to be better than Corrupt Staff Group Take Two. I made this offer to one of the people I was talking to (Jimpka Moss on the gdb) but I wouldn't make it to someone who thinks racist jokes are funny, that you don't have to be anti-racist to be a decent person, or that flinging sexual fluids is A-OK.
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TedCruz
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Post by TedCruz on Feb 28, 2023 9:32:10 GMT -5
Well, it's at the very least very weird that all of the hyper-immersive RPIs deal with similar problems. At least in theory someone could create an RPI that doesn't, but it's going to attract the problem people and that will be a big point of failure. Best of luck in any case. I'm not going to take a dump on a work-in-progress when I have one of my own as well.
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delirium
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Post by delirium on Feb 28, 2023 10:21:33 GMT -5
Ted the problem is simple (yet hard to solve):
To run a game people enjoy and feel safe in takes a combination of emotional maturity, patience, creativity and understanding that can be hard to come by, and THEN these rare unicorns have to be willing instead of taking one look at the work involved in not only creating but protecting and maintaining the game and going 'oh hell no.'
That is why you see so many of us turning to ttrpgs instead. It doesn't prevent drama but when bad actors come along, out on their asses they fucking go.
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jenki
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Post by jenki on Feb 28, 2023 10:25:25 GMT -5
I'm surprised things have progressed this far. It makes me wonder if the game will shutdown or morph into something different (or sadly, just stay the same). At the end of the day, however, I guess it doesn't effect me much as an outside observer but it's still a surprise.
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TedCruz
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Post by TedCruz on Feb 28, 2023 10:34:18 GMT -5
Ted the problem is simple (yet hard to solve): To run a game people enjoy and feel safe in takes a combination of emotional maturity, patience, creativity and understanding that can be hard to come by, and THEN these rare unicorns have to be willing instead of taking one look at the work involved in not only creating but protecting and maintaining the game and going 'oh hell no.' That is why you see so many of us turning to ttrpgs instead. It doesn't prevent drama but when bad actors come along, out on their asses they fucking go. Well said.
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Post by lechuck on Feb 28, 2023 23:06:00 GMT -5
How fucking nuts is it that Halaster apparently had to be talked out of shutting the game down altogether? He said so himself. He was on the verge of putting an end to ArmageddonMUD. Setting aside the fact that it might unironically be a good idea, let's put it into perspective. Let's translate it into real talk:
When he ran out of ways to force his friends' victims to stay silent, his first impulse was to pull the plug of the game that 150+ people play. That was his go-to option, the one he had to be talked out of. He almost ended the game that launched an entire genre of MUDs because it was the only way to get people to stop telling the truth about him and his friends.
And somehow, people are expected to have any trust in him and the rest of staff, and return to the game once this blows over? Hah.
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Post by jonsmith on Mar 1, 2023 8:53:08 GMT -5
How fucking nuts is it that Halaster apparently had to be talked out of shutting the game down altogether? He said so himself. He was on the verge of putting an end to ArmageddonMUD. Setting aside the fact that it might unironically be a good idea, let's put it into perspective. Let's translate it into real talk: When he ran out of ways to force his friends' victims to stay silent, his first impulse was to pull the plug of the game that 150+ people play. That was his go-to option, the one he had to be talked out of. He almost ended the game that launched an entire genre of MUDs because it was the only way to get people to stop telling the truth about him and his friends. And somehow, people are expected to have any trust in him and the rest of staff, and return to the game once this blows over? Hah. That was a fake message, he never had that conversation, keep up bud.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Mar 1, 2023 8:57:38 GMT -5
How fucking nuts is it that Halaster apparently had to be talked out of shutting the game down altogether? He said so himself. He was on the verge of putting an end to ArmageddonMUD. Setting aside the fact that it might unironically be a good idea, let's put it into perspective. Let's translate it into real talk: When he ran out of ways to force his friends' victims to stay silent, his first impulse was to pull the plug of the game that 150+ people play. That was his go-to option, the one he had to be talked out of. He almost ended the game that launched an entire genre of MUDs because it was the only way to get people to stop telling the truth about him and his friends. And somehow, people are expected to have any trust in him and the rest of staff, and return to the game once this blows over? Hah. That was a fake message, he never had that conversation, keep up bud. Keep up bud.
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