maziel
staff puppet account
Posts: 45
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Post by maziel on Mar 1, 2023 13:17:14 GMT -5
Yeah let's stalk the stalker! Then if he stalks anyone, we'll know! And we can tell everyone his information! His wife/gf, his work, his family, maybe even call his grandma! That way he'll be so isolated creeping will be the closest he can get to social interaction! πΆβπ«οΈ π€¦ββοΈ
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Post by nottriste on Mar 1, 2023 13:19:18 GMT -5
Yeah let's stalk the stalker! Then if he stalks anyone, we'll know! And we can tell everyone his information! His wife/gf, his work, his family, maybe even call his grandma! That way he'll be so isolated creeping will be the closest he can get to social interaction! πΆβπ«οΈ π€¦ββοΈ The battle tactic described is favored by goblins. Yeeeeeah no one here is interested in doxxing Shalooonsh. Despite Bebop being falsely accused of doxxing, I am pretty sure doxxing is more in the playbook of AmageddonMUD fanboys with no lives. We're too good for that.
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migrant
staff puppet account
Posts: 22
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Post by migrant on Mar 1, 2023 13:45:02 GMT -5
Not everybody reads the regular GDB beyond clan boards and an occasional thread that looks interesting, much less a second discussion board. I believe I looked over here once to read about the doxxing that didn't happen, and there was a level of vitriol involved in other threads that just didn't jive with my own experiences. There was also a lot of ableism, fatphobia, just general name-calling, trollish behavior, and other things that I don't like to be around. Why would I keep reading a forum of people who throw out a bunch of insults about people like me (fat and autistic, in specific), or trust these people that I don't know over my own experiences? Just quoting this to second it. When I first started playing Armageddon about a year ago, I totally knew about these boards and Armageddon's reputation on reddit. But I did consider that it was quite possible that a group of people had been upset about being righteously moderated, and made a secondary toxic community, and were unfairly brigading Arm whenever it came up. When I looked into it further, this view was cemented for me: many of the negative reviewers on reddit didn't seem to actually know how to play the game, and got facts wrong about how the game worked. Further, and more importantly, I lurked on these boards and studied the apparent character of discourse here. The first thing I saw when I first started was people insisting on saying "necker". They were upset that Armageddon staff banned this word due to how it was being used in a way suspiciously close to a word in real life. I saw the tone-deaf conversations here and thought "well, okay, that decides it". Every time I see the headline that denigrates "some cat lady", I think about how one of my favorite people in the whole world could be categorized as "some cat lady" by a pile of thoughtless bullies. Every time someone talks about Shaloonsh's IRL appearance in a negative way I kind of cringe about what a horrible thing that is to mention, and how completely unnecessary it is. He could be the most handsome man on earth and his behavior towards BeBop and others would still make him disgusting and wrong. I'm pointing these things out because val might not want to tell you guys to police your tone, and I'm not going to be authoritarian about it either (I have no authority) but -- if you actually want people to believe you're the "good guys", then it might be worth thinking about these things more seriously. You don't want to overmoderate members, but moderation is not the issue. You see what Armageddon does and start extrapolating rules like "moderating is bad" or "RPIs are bad" or whatever else, and it detracts from the facts -- the specific bad things that corrupt staff are doing. You can 100% have a polite, logical, and moderate community without squashing free speech. Nobody needs to type out slurs or act thoughtlessly cruel in order to make a logical point. In order to stop being corrupt, Armageddon doesn't need to suddenly let the GDB be full of rudeness and bigotry. They just have to be reasonable and transparent and moderate fairly.
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pinkerdlu
Shartist
The evil bad guy of a desert sex simulator. Real Necker
Posts: 522
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Post by pinkerdlu on Mar 1, 2023 13:49:53 GMT -5
Not everybody reads the regular GDB beyond clan boards and an occasional thread that looks interesting, much less a second discussion board. I believe I looked over here once to read about the doxxing that didn't happen, and there was a level of vitriol involved in other threads that just didn't jive with my own experiences. There was also a lot of ableism, fatphobia, just general name-calling, trollish behavior, and other things that I don't like to be around. Why would I keep reading a forum of people who throw out a bunch of insults about people like me (fat and autistic, in specific), or trust these people that I don't know over my own experiences? Just quoting this to second it. When I first started playing Armageddon about a year ago, I totally knew about these boards and Armageddon's reputation on reddit. But I did consider that it was quite possible that a group of people had been upset about being righteously moderated, and made a secondary toxic community, and were unfairly brigading Arm whenever it came up. When I looked into it further, this view was cemented for me: many of the negative reviewers on reddit didn't seem to actually know how to play the game, and got facts wrong about how the game worked. Further, and more importantly, I lurked on these boards and studied the apparent character of discourse here. The first thing I saw when I first started was people insisting on saying "necker". They were upset that Armageddon staff banned this word due to how it was being used in a way suspiciously close to a word in real life. I saw the tone-deaf conversations here and thought "well, okay, that decides it". Every time I see the headline that denigrates "some cat lady", I think about how one of my favorite people in the whole world could be categorized as "some cat lady" by a pile of thoughtless bullies. Every time someone talks about Shaloonsh's IRL appearance in a negative way I kind of cringe about what a horrible thing that is to mention, and how completely unnecessary it is. He could be the most handsome man on earth and his behavior towards BeBop and others would still make him disgusting and wrong. I'm pointing these things out because val might not want to tell you guys to police your tone, and I'm not going to be authoritarian about it either (I have no authority) but -- if you actually want people to believe you're the "good guys", then it might be worth thinking about these things more seriously. You don't want to overmoderate members, but moderation is not the issue. You see what Armageddon does and start extrapolating rules like "moderating is bad" or "RPIs are bad" or whatever else, and it detracts from the facts -- the specific bad things that corrupt staff are doing. You can 100% have a polite, logical, and moderate community without squashing free speech. Nobody needs to type out slurs or act thoughtlessly cruel in order to make a logical point. In order to stop being corrupt, Armageddon doesn't need to suddenly let the GDB be full of rudeness and bigotry. They just have to be reasonable and transparent and moderate fairly. Necker
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maziel
staff puppet account
Posts: 45
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Post by maziel on Mar 1, 2023 13:51:29 GMT -5
Most unhappy GDB players, whether due to the elitist culture or negative staff interactions, don't become citizens here. They might lurk, maybe make a couple of posts,but mostly they just stop playing and stop being part of the community.
It would be interesting to see what a survey that manages to track down the majority of Arm players over the years would say.
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Post by jonsmith on Mar 1, 2023 13:54:20 GMT -5
I came here to see the various magick builds.
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Post by nottriste on Mar 1, 2023 13:54:58 GMT -5
I know the moderator of r/MUD. Sadly he has become sick of "drama" and took down Bebop's post on all of this, even though it's some of the most evidence backed drama yet. We would have had this discussion there, most likely, if it were an option. But alas, we now must fight for what is right along side... Barron Trump?
Kudos to pinkerdlu to be the only person I've ever seen to sport an icon of a literal child with no accomplishments.
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migrant
staff puppet account
Posts: 22
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Post by migrant on Mar 1, 2023 13:58:37 GMT -5
Haha honestly it's difficult to actually get upset by someone who's so funny, but...
That kind of behavior does make it very easy to completely discount opinions that are expressed here, unfortunately.
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Patuk
Shartist
Posts: 445
Member is Online
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Post by Patuk on Mar 1, 2023 14:01:38 GMT -5
Hey I'm Eukelade, also known as LauraMars. I played Armageddon for a long time. In 2016 I left because I got a job running a pay mud. I have complicated feelings about Armageddon! It has been the place where I told some of the most enduring and incredible stories with other collaborators, but also the place where I experienced some of my greatest online frustrations and fears. I wouldn't have stumbled into my current career path without my experience staffing for Armageddon, but on the other hand, being on staff was a crippling exercise in ethical misery that I'm shocked I endured for as long as I did. Since leaving the game, I have occasionally come back to post my opinion on the forums or discord, and my suggestion to staff has always been: "Be nicer to players." You can be nice to players. You actually can. I required the staff of my game to be nice to players - it was an ironclad law. We called it the Mr. Rogers rule, and it was built into the culture of staffing on my game. You don't need to be a particularly nice person. I don't consider myself to be particularly nice. I don't like the constant, needy roar that comes from a hungry player base clamoring for too much work from too few people. But when you hold all the power, that includes the power to walk away when you feel overtaxed. That includes the power to be kind, because you literally hold the player's experience in your hand, so what threat are they to you? Why punch down? I'm frustrated that Armageddon will never learn that lesson, that it was built on such a shaky and imperfect foundation. AMA about any of that, I guess. But the real reason I'm here is because metoo with the Shalooonsh stuff unfortunately (when I was much younger of course), and I just want to offer solidarity to Bebop and Delirium and everyone else who experienced more or less ick at his whims. I'm saddened but not surprised by the response of the staff. I remember reading a small interview kinda thing of yours back when Starmourn was shiny and new. In particular, I remember a line in which you pointed at Armageddon as a study of what not to do and how not to talk to players. I found it a little sad even back then and still do because of how true it rang. For all the talk about 'how can we retain people', the #1 thing you have to do is to want them back. I'm not entirely convinced the full body of staff really wants such a thing, and really, the bans that have been flying around for breaking 'the rules' (that staff themselves make) are boneheaded as it comes.
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maziel
staff puppet account
Posts: 45
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Post by maziel on Mar 1, 2023 14:03:33 GMT -5
If you put conservatives + edgelords (which is how you come off) on one arm and liberals + OGs on the other, it'd be a bit more accurate. Doggos Lefthand side: literally anything Right hand side, edgelords: Autistic but hasn't come to terms with it, thinks getting attention or reactions and being successful is the same thing, makes divisive posts on the topic of diversity despite being part of a community that's willing to accept them Edit: I figure as a bit of an edgelord that you can take it
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Post by jcarter on Mar 1, 2023 14:05:31 GMT -5
Pretty much none of our business. This question would involve releasing his personal information, which classifies as a form of doxxing, which we aren't going to do (even though staff already accused Bebop of doing it when she didn't do it in the slightest). There ain't no rules here, this is the wild west! Also, if you're being punished for the crime, why not actually do it? No doxxing has been and still is a rule that is posted here. If this is brought up again it will be a ban.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,656
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Post by delerak on Mar 1, 2023 14:28:55 GMT -5
I doubt anyone here wants this or see's it that way. I think above all, the vast majority of posters here who have been here the past decade or whenever jcarter started these forums, wants one thing above all else and that's to seek the truth.
I only speak for myself here but I despise liars and people who are deceptive. It's one of the few things in life that I truly hate. I hate the idea of cheating on your spouse, it disgusts me. Probably why I was banned so many times from Arm and left and returned to give it a second, third or fourth chance only to be let down by that shit I hate, people just lying, being deceptive etc.
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Post by Azerbanjani on Mar 1, 2023 14:33:50 GMT -5
I have a lot of weirdly respectful feelings about Delerak but I can't help but find myself agreeing with him most of the time.
That being said, I don't think I ever would portray myself as 'a good guy'. I frequently suggest bad-faith arguments in the discord, I suggested we change the shadowboards to 'official' simply because it was funny to me, etc.
I don't think I could ever imagine supporting just outright lying unless it was some sort of laugh or joke.
There's a lot of ways you can fuck with people online, make their life hell. There are so many website communities with fledgling security that it just takes a bored asshole to make infinite accounts and harass them nonstop.
There's no joy that comes from being a lying dick bag. At least for me. It's one part 'It's literally too easy to fuck with people and there's no point' and another part 'Why would I even do this?'
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migrant
staff puppet account
Posts: 22
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Post by migrant on Mar 1, 2023 14:44:27 GMT -5
I doubt anyone here wants this or see's it that way. I think above all, the vast majority of posters here who have been here the past decade or whenever jcarter started these forums, wants one thing above all else and that's to seek the truth. I only speak for myself here but I despise liars and people who are deceptive. It's one of the few things in life that I truly hate. I hate the idea of cheating on your spouse, it disgusts me. Probably why I was banned so many times from Arm and left and returned to give it a second, third or fourth chance only to be let down by that shit I hate, people just lying, being deceptive etc. Yeah, that's probably a bad word choice on my part, but I'm speaking in regard to a dichotomy of shadowboards vs. Arm. For instance, nobody thinks the Punisher is actually "a good guy". He's the villain in some stories even. But when the Punisher is fighting Jigsaw, he's the good guy. It's just a convention regarding whose side the audience is supposed to be on. What I'm saying is that you can't expect the audience (general people from the MUD community) to trust you. Like, fine, if that's what you prefer. But it's silly to complain about it and act like others must be crazy or liars for not trusting you when all an outsider has to do is take a quick glance over this forum to conclude that the vocal majority of people here could have been righteously banned from any decent game. I feel like I have to mention next to this paragraph -- that while Arm may dole out some justified bans and those people end up here too, it doesn't detract from the truth in this case that many of Arm's bans are unjustified and corrupt, and they protected (and are still protecting) a staffmember who was sexually harassing the players.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Mar 1, 2023 15:15:22 GMT -5
meh, there is no banter that goes on here that you wouldn't have been able to find through any other avenue of ooc communication-- i've been in conversations on aim and yahoo about arm that would have every last poster here look like a saint
getting twisted about optics to the other side is silly, especially when we're not the ones that have routinely circled the wagons in defense of known abusers
that said, i think there is a deep and genuine love for the game among the majority and on some level we would all like to see it in a place where we can RP and do the bone swords again
and that's just not a place it can get to without an entity like these boards
no good guys, no bad guys, this place is just a refuge for those that at least on some level want our ex to kick bad habits and behaviors that make it impossible to enjoy their presence, 'cause we all know that when it was good, it was good
that's my take at least
im sure there's an exception or two
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