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Post by anaiahlation on Jan 9, 2020 3:59:14 GMT -5
All points I have both made and agreed (and do agree) with and have tried to make. Well, less so with magicker subguilds as points I tried to make, but that was because there were still intended to be full guild mages at the 2010 point in the guild and subguilds overhaul and subguilds mages were intended to be 3-6 spell /actual subguilds/, rather than what they became.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jan 9, 2020 5:11:14 GMT -5
Well, if a significant enough number of players are waiting for their karma to regenerate before creating new and more powerful characters, that puts the data from Part 1 in a whole new light as well. That means there's a category of players between people who play the game weekly and people who quit the game: players who only play the game once their karma's been maxed out and they are playing their desired concept. If a handful of players decide on the same week to take a break from the game until their karma regenerates, they all basically look like players who have left the game to the weekly update counter. Clearly there's some people not coming back though, which could mean that the wait for karma to regenerate exposes players to other opportunities for roleplay/life besides Armageddon.
Additionally, there seems to be some recognition of the fact that players are waiting for karma to regenerate and therefore not playing, due to the semi-recent code change to make each karma point take 30 days to regenerate instead of a progressively longer amount of time per karma point. Perhaps they really want players waiting for their karma to regenerate to return to the game more quickly, and/or provide a shorter window of time to keep a powerful character alive and in the game so that there is more incentive to take risks with your powerful character after three months or so (if they die, at least you can roll a new one).
As an aside, the fact that there is a "2010 point in the guild and subguilds overhaul", considering that the overhaul is still effectively ongoing, is astounding to me. Very emblematic of how change is approached in this game. I wonder how much of the downward trend in player interest could have been saved if the project hadn't been so stuck.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jan 9, 2020 5:32:36 GMT -5
I can't fix stupid. Brokkr's decision to gate custom crafting behind an entire subguild was a foolish choice. It was the choice of an idiot. It took months and months of pointing this out before it was resolved. I'm not ready to waste the veritable years in criticism it would require to change a fool's mind. Brokkr's decision to gate custom crafting behind a subguild was motivated by staff's general dislike of custom crafting. Staff culture at the time treated custom-craft objects with derision. A sneak-peek at the request data seems to show that it didn't effectively change anything. The amount of custom craft submissions resolved hover around 2-3 a week on average for the past six years. So I think it was foolish for two reasons: it was an arbitrary choice and it didn't even have the desired effect of reducing custom crafts by depressing interest in playing crafters. |
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Post by lechuck on Jan 9, 2020 7:03:07 GMT -5
I think the restrictions on custom crafting were just an incidental part of the general reduction in player agency. It was preceded by the restriction of player-made clans to the warehouse system Nyr came up with and buried under absurdly strict requirments. Back in the day (I know I keep saying that), you could just create a clan if your idea was good enough and staff had faith in you. Obviously it wasn't something everyone got to do, but it was a possibility. There wasn't some crazy system of qualifications. A clan like SLK comes to mind, created by hot_dancer. Then they shut the doors to player-made clans when Reborn was on the horizon (lol) and left them shut for years afterwards until players finally demanded the option back. Nyr's response was the "Minor Merchant House" process where you begin as a normal merchant, pay taxes for ages, then apply for a warehouse, and so on, until RL years have gone by and you finally qualify for an actual clan. Needless to say, almost nobody made use of this system because it's just not an appealing process.
It's also reserved for actual merchant endeavors. As per the rules, you can't create, say, a criminal gang via the player-made clan system. It's only meant for trading companies and MMHs--aka the least boat-rocking kinds of clans. Since it came up in another discussion, I'll point out that this is why there was consternation surrounding the Crimson Wind: they were clearly not a merchant company, but they got a "warehouse" anyway and used it as an HQ for their raiding band. Other players had tried to do something similar but were told that this system is reserved for actual merchants. The rules expressly state that these warehouses are for the storage and manufacture of goods, not for housing and hideouts. Once you finally become a MMH, you get more freedom with what you can do with your clan, but... how many player-made MMHs have emerged from this system?
Custom crafting strikes me as the same kind of philosophy. They'd prefer to get rid of it entirely, but players are against that and insist on keeping it in the game. So they bury it under extreme restrictions, hoping that it'll just die a quiet death from sheer impracticality while they maintain the illusion that it's an option. Since custom crafting is less impactful than player-made clans, they're probably more willing to compromise with the playerbase. It's an easy way for them to look like they're amenable to player expectations without agreeing to anything that truly requires them to make an effort or offers players any real agency. After all, creating a custom object and crafting recipe takes like two minutes, and it isn't something that lets the recipient break the glass ceiling. It's really just a reskinned copy of some existing item.
Normally I would say that custom crafting is kind of a small issue to be so concerned about, but it is unfortunately one of the only things you can realistically aspire for as a crafter/merchant. Getting a warehouse or shop is simply outside the reach of almost anyone, and the game's actual economy is so flimsy that getting rich is both easy and pointless, so putting your trademark on some fancy skinning knife is the best you can really hope for. It's why I don't play merchants, personally.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 8:12:40 GMT -5
Wonder who pointed out in 2010 that the result of time locking karma as regenerating would push people simply not to play if the option they desired was unavailable rather than pushing them to "also play mundanes"...  This gal. That plus the shift from karma being for special fringe concepts to karma just being for more power. It used to be that you'd use karma to play an unusual race or a magicker, and very few players had a habit of playing exclusively half-giants or magickers or whatever. It was totally fine to play 0-karma characters the majority of the time, even for those who were min-maxers or power-seekers (who undeniably make up a fair portion of the playerbase). Then with the extended subguilds and especially the magick subguilds, karma became a measure of every character's coded worth. You could no longer make a 0-karma warrior and be on equal footing with every other warrior. Once you've experienced enforcer+slipknife or scout+whiran, it feels pretty tame to go back to the basic options for a time. New players will also be disillusioned when they learn that Armageddon operates on similar principles to freemium games. You could easily stomach lacking access to character types that don't fit naturally into the core game, i.e. the old karma options; but once you learn that there's levels of power that don't come with the restrictions and disadvantages of the old karma options, and will take you years to access, a new player will much more readily say "fuck this game," and former players considering a return will be less likely to bother. The current system isn't very different from just buying stat boosts with karma. It's no wonder if that has an impact on the volume of character applications. As the lack of story shifts the "meta" more and more toward small-scale inter-player conflict (i.e. PvP), it becomes deeply unappealing to roll in with the basic options, knowing that there'll be players with karma subclasses whose characters are considerably more powerful even if their race and main class are the same as yours. That was a lot more tolerable back when the karma options came with all kinds of strings attached and didn't really share a playing field with the human warriors. A 0-karma character is now objectively a second-rate character.
Hahaha. You must be joking. Very few players had a habit of playing exclusively magickers? Really? You're saying this now? Whoa. The grass is greener.
A good percentage of people played 'only' mages. Only. For years. One after another, after another. It didnt make them bad players. Anaiah for example tended to do that. It was simply their preference. But it's not something that helps the game. It's why karma regeneration is even in place. It's why sorcerors and psionicists are no longer gated only by karma, but by special application as well. The idea was to encourage playing non-karma related characters when your karma is spent out. And it did work, or at least improved the situation. Except for fringe occasional aspects, which still create a percentage of the playerbase.
As usual, people on these forums are eager to embrace and emphasize the negative. Now, we have the whole playerbase not playing because their karma is low. That is not the case. Except for a few potentially fringe cases.
There are people who for example do not have a lot of time to play, so they pretty straight forwardly say that they prefer to play roles that are given power quickly. So they dont have to worry about grinding. That is an unfortunate matter and is a problem. Not those players fault, their reasoning is sound. But it's also a reasoning that if embraced en masse, will not work in the game. So some kind of a middle ground should be found and I hope will be found soon.
There is a greater percentage who died and they have let's say 0 karma available now and in 2 weeks, they'll have the 1 karma coming in. If their characters live 6-12 months on average, the idea of waiting 2 weeks to gain that extra point of karma to get the character that will have greater potential, they will be okey to wait those two weeks.
Thing is, all this is known to Staff and various things are attempted to be introduced to ameliorate various issues. For example, now Extended sub guilds do not cost karma and karma regeneration was stream lined.
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Post by anaiahlation on Jan 9, 2020 9:05:15 GMT -5
Nice to see the boost it had on player #s  Did and do I generally only like playing mages? Yeeeeep. In pretty much any game. Even all my arx chars have had that as a built in goal. Do I use it to abuse the power? One pk since 2009. You tell me. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 11:36:09 GMT -5
Nice to see the boost it had on player #s Did and do I generally only like playing mages? Yeeeeep. In pretty much any game. Even all my arx chars have had that as a built in goal. Do I use it to abuse the power? One pk since 2009. You tell me. Dwarf slayer. |
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Post by shakes on Jan 9, 2020 12:11:50 GMT -5
I felt that the change to streamlining ALL mundane subguilds to 1 karma and making them NOT spend your karma point was a huge benefit to the game.
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Post by jcarter on Jan 9, 2020 12:45:54 GMT -5
That plus the shift from karma being for special fringe concepts to karma just being for more power. It used to be that you'd use karma to play an unusual race or a magicker, and very few players had a habit of playing exclusively half-giants or magickers or whatever. It was totally fine to play 0-karma characters the majority of the time, even for those who were min-maxers or power-seekers (who undeniably make up a fair portion of the playerbase). Then with the extended subguilds and especially the magick subguilds, karma became a measure of every character's coded worth. You could no longer make a 0-karma warrior and be on equal footing with every other warrior. Once you've experienced enforcer+slipknife or scout+whiran, it feels pretty tame to go back to the basic options for a time. New players will also be disillusioned when they learn that Armageddon operates on similar principles to freemium games. You could easily stomach lacking access to character types that don't fit naturally into the core game, i.e. the old karma options; but once you learn that there's levels of power that don't come with the restrictions and disadvantages of the old karma options, and will take you years to access, a new player will much more readily say "fuck this game," and former players considering a return will be less likely to bother. The current system isn't very different from just buying stat boosts with karma. It's no wonder if that has an impact on the volume of character applications. As the lack of story shifts the "meta" more and more toward small-scale inter-player conflict (i.e. PvP), it becomes deeply unappealing to roll in with the basic options, knowing that there'll be players with karma subclasses whose characters are considerably more powerful even if their race and main class are the same as yours. That was a lot more tolerable back when the karma options came with all kinds of strings attached and didn't really share a playing field with the human warriors. A 0-karma character is now objectively a second-rate character. Hahaha. You must be joking. Very few players had a habit of playing exclusively magickers? Really? You're saying this now? Whoa. The grass is greener. A good percentage of people played 'only' mages. Only. For years. One after another, after another. It didnt make them bad players. Anaiah for example tended to do that. It was simply their preference. But it's not something that helps the game. It's why karma regeneration is even in place. It's why sorcerors and psionicists are no longer gated only by karma, but by special application as well. The idea was to encourage playing non-karma related characters when your karma is spent out. And it did work, or at least improved the situation. Except for fringe occasional aspects, which still create a percentage of the playerbase.
As usual, people on these forums are eager to embrace and emphasize the negative. Now, we have the whole playerbase not playing because their karma is low. That is not the case. Except for a few potentially fringe cases.
There are people who for example do not have a lot of time to play, so they pretty straight forwardly say that they prefer to play roles that are given power quickly. So they dont have to worry about grinding. That is an unfortunate matter and is a problem. Not those players fault, their reasoning is sound. But it's also a reasoning that if embraced en masse, will not work in the game. So some kind of a middle ground should be found and I hope will be found soon.
There is a greater percentage who died and they have let's say 0 karma available now and in 2 weeks, they'll have the 1 karma coming in. If their characters live 6-12 months on average, the idea of waiting 2 weeks to gain that extra point of karma to get the character that will have greater potential, they will be okey to wait those two weeks.
Thing is, all this is known to Staff and various things are attempted to be introduced to ameliorate various issues. For example, now Extended sub guilds do not cost karma and karma regeneration was stream lined.
i always crack up when qwerty makes these "a-ha! your opinion is wrong!" posts that end up giving an insight into staff mentality and making them look worse. let's digest this. people playing mages because they want to is "not something that helps the game". i have no idea how playing an assassin is better for the game than a whiran, but there you go, word of staff is that mages are somehow not beneficial to the game. some people play mages because of an identified problem with not wanting to "worry about grinding". players think this is a problem. staff recognize this is a problem. but instead of finding a solution to that problem that makes people happy, players are instead punished and forced to either play less desirable roles or abstain from playing for a period of time until they can go back to what they want to play. jeeze i just can't wrap my mind around any reasons why players would have a negative view of staff. |
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Jan 9, 2020 13:26:46 GMT -5
It's also reserved for actual merchant endeavors. As per the rules, you can't create, say, a criminal gang via the player-made clan system. It's only meant for trading companies and MMHs--aka the least boat-rocking kinds of clans. Since it came up in another discussion, I'll point out that this is why there was consternation surrounding the Crimson Wind: they were clearly not a merchant company, but they got a "warehouse" anyway and used it as an HQ for their raiding band. way i understood it is u just need a way to pay the rent and the local leaders for however long it takes to get bumped up to each lvl and that ur product as a merchant could be anything from coded items to services like theft murder and protection or extortion were ppl living in the crimson winds hq or did they just use it for business related shit like stashing their loot discussing raider business and training because i figure the way a warehouse is used depends on its business so things that generic businesses would not use it for others could |
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Post by anaiahlation on Jan 9, 2020 13:46:51 GMT -5
Nice to see the boost it had on player #s Did and do I generally only like playing mages? Yeeeeep. In pretty much any game. Even all my arx chars have had that as a built in goal. Do I use it to abuse the power? One pk since 2009. You tell me. Dwarf slayer. Das rite Mon. I befriended the local templarate with a some what infamous rogue mage, got arrested and broke out, had upward of a dozen meetings, helped trained gemmed whirans, and got literally 200+ hours of rp around the pk that happened. I don't do it often, but when I do, I make it count.  |
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vex
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Post by vex on Jan 9, 2020 14:31:42 GMT -5
I felt that the change to streamlining ALL mundane subguilds to 1 karma and making them NOT spend your karma point was a huge benefit to the game.
The next, best step, would be to replace the completely irrelevant 0 karma subs with the appropriate 1 karma sub, and make all of the remaining mundane subs zero karma.
There is NO good reason, to keep new players limited to second rate characters, for 6+ months, if not longer. That is what the zero karma subs make- second rate characters. No BS, its true, and we ALL know it.
If dwarves continue to be zero karma, I don't see how, advanced slashing and parry on a craftsman, or whatever, should require karma. It makes no sense, in the context of what karma is laid out to be a measure of. Its just a power carrot, where those who have it are objectively better equipped to "win", than those without, and especially lately, we need new players to feel like they're welcome, and on a equal footing, with everyone else. Level the field for all mundanes, and keep karma in reserve for magicks, difficult races, and special apps.
Six months is a LONG time to wait, especially when you're new, and everyone around you is measuring you almost exclusively, on how much of a coded asset you are or could be. Its rough being new, as it is. No reason to deny them a level field of mundane play, on top of all the other hardships. |
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Post by shakes on Jan 9, 2020 15:22:17 GMT -5
I don't think the zero karma subs are shit.
Some of the guild/subguild pairings at zero karma are better than their higher karma mundane equivalent.
Enforcer/bounty hunter, for example. Or miscreant/hunter.
You know the biggest hindrance to being a newbie? Not knowing about the Shadowboard and all the mechanics-class discussions available here.
Can you do more with the higher karma mundane subguilds? Maybe a little. But it's not a huge hindrance to being powerful. By and far the biggest hindrance to newbies is that they lock up game knowledge and hide it.
I still get tickled when I see older players sitting down in the bar and they type 'scan'. I want to shake them and say, "It cuts your scan power in half to be sitting! Stand up if you want to even try to spot thieves!"
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ShaLeah
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Post by ShaLeah on Jan 9, 2020 16:34:47 GMT -5
That plus the shift from karma being for special fringe concepts to karma just being for more power. It used to be that you'd use karma to play an unusual race or a magicker, and very few players had a habit of playing exclusively half-giants or magickers or whatever. It was totally fine to play 0-karma characters the majority of the time, even for those who were min-maxers or power-seekers (who undeniably make up a fair portion of the playerbase). Then with the extended subguilds and especially the magick subguilds, karma became a measure of every character's coded worth. You could no longer make a 0-karma warrior and be on equal footing with every other warrior. Once you've experienced enforcer+slipknife or scout+whiran, it feels pretty tame to go back to the basic options for a time. New players will also be disillusioned when they learn that Armageddon operates on similar principles to freemium games. You could easily stomach lacking access to character types that don't fit naturally into the core game, i.e. the old karma options; but once you learn that there's levels of power that don't come with the restrictions and disadvantages of the old karma options, and will take you years to access, a new player will much more readily say "fuck this game," and former players considering a return will be less likely to bother. The current system isn't very different from just buying stat boosts with karma. It's no wonder if that has an impact on the volume of character applications. As the lack of story shifts the "meta" more and more toward small-scale inter-player conflict (i.e. PvP), it becomes deeply unappealing to roll in with the basic options, knowing that there'll be players with karma subclasses whose characters are considerably more powerful even if their race and main class are the same as yours. That was a lot more tolerable back when the karma options came with all kinds of strings attached and didn't really share a playing field with the human warriors. A 0-karma character is now objectively a second-rate character. Hahaha. You must be joking. Very few players had a habit of playing exclusively magickers? Really? You're saying this now? Whoa. The grass is greener. A good percentage of people played 'only' mages. Only. For years. One after another, after another. It didnt make them bad players. Anaiah for example tended to do that. It was simply their preference. But it's not something that helps the game. It's why karma regeneration is even in place. It's why sorcerors and psionicists are no longer gated only by karma, but by special application as well. The idea was to encourage playing non-karma related characters when your karma is spent out. And it did work, or at least improved the situation. Except for fringe occasional aspects, which still create a percentage of the playerbase.
As usual, people on these forums are eager to embrace and emphasize the negative. Now, we have the whole playerbase not playing because their karma is low. That is not the case. Except for a few potentially fringe cases.
There are people who for example do not have a lot of time to play, so they pretty straight forwardly say that they prefer to play roles that are given power quickly. So they dont have to worry about grinding. That is an unfortunate matter and is a problem. Not those players fault, their reasoning is sound. But it's also a reasoning that if embraced en masse, will not work in the game. So some kind of a middle ground should be found and I hope will be found soon.
There is a greater percentage who died and they have let's say 0 karma available now and in 2 weeks, they'll have the 1 karma coming in. If their characters live 6-12 months on average, the idea of waiting 2 weeks to gain that extra point of karma to get the character that will have greater potential, they will be okey to wait those two weeks.
Thing is, all this is known to Staff and various things are attempted to be introduced to ameliorate various issues. For example, now Extended sub guilds do not cost karma and karma regeneration was stream lined.
Just gonna leave this right here. [removed by jcarter] |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2020 16:39:59 GMT -5
You really should put something like "Not safe for office" or whatever. Not cool.
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