sneazy
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Post by sneazy on Oct 23, 2019 7:34:06 GMT -5
Going to post/farm some ideas here. The question: Is there a better skill progression system than the current one.
I've given it some thought and just getting out of the question part isn't easy because we probably like/dislike different things about how arm works.
If we don't agree on goals then we can't come to a consensus on a solution. For me, the goal is a less grindy system, at least for now.
Here are some systems from other games (I've never played them, googly reviews to see that none are a panacea):
Sindome (MOO) - earn XP for playing the game -> time counter
Inquisition (diku) - earn XP for emotes/thoughts/thinks -> word counter
Arx (mush?) - earn XP from social votes -> popularity contest aka likes so this is not code driven but player driven
All of the above reward active players over casual players. I don't see them as any different than grinding, it's just a different form of grinding. -------------------------------
Here's my first stab at an easy to implement progression update. It would keep the current system in place but add a layer of skill-ups for casual players.
Time passed based system (not time played)
Rationale: The skill failure/timer system gives an advantage to the player who plays for the timers, knows what the failures are and keeps repeating actions until a failure is achieved. Casual players do not have the time to practice skills, might login for a half hour but it's night time or stormy or both, or they need a partner to practice with and none are available.
Change: update all skills on login as if your character had been working the days you were logged out.
This would level the playing field somewhat for casuals.
Code change is very simple - add a function that runs through gain_skill on all the skills (except possibly hidden skills) at login. Increases could be adjusted for multiples of a given time increment (if the skill gain is +1 normally then +1 times Number of RL Days since last login).
Unintended consequences:
Would this change play behavior? Some hardcore players login less since there is not as much need to practice?
What about the economy? Would be able to increment some skills without materials available or even weapons (no bow but archery still increases?).
Mitigate by only allowing skills that have been increased at least once to increase? For archery to increase, the player would have had to at least borrow a bow once to get the skill off the starting value.
------------------------ This is too simple for it to be original and it's not the one I am thinking about coding (think char creation distributed skill points) but I wanted to get the ball rolling so people could chime in if they want.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 23, 2019 8:59:35 GMT -5
If you look at character progression as a means of rewarding the player for playing a game, I think the main problem with Armageddon progression is that no one on staff can seem to decide what to reward exactly. It's easily Armageddon's most generic feature, as it is based off of the standard activity-based progression found in many MMORPGs from Ultima Online to RuneScape, and various single-player RPGs like Final Fantasy 2 and Elder Scrolls: Morrowind or Oblivion. So Armageddon, ostensibly a collaborative storytelling game, rewards players in the same way a hack-and-slash MMORPG does. That doesn't seem right.
If you buy into that so far, and you see it as a problem that needs addressing, you can go two ways from there:
1) Find something more appropriate to reward players for in a storytelling game, such as engagement with other players
2) Detatch character progression from other game systems
For #1 you can go the way RPIs and MUSH-like games like Arx are doing lately, which is rewarding players for RP. That comes with its own problems, as you stated in your original post. I would add it is also harder for players who play off-peak in these games due to the fewer opportunities for XP. XP-for-RP simply on its own tends to devolve into a writing and/or popularity contest, but combined with other ways to gain XP as well as limitations on players awarding XP to other players, you can feasibly create a fair system around this concept.
For #2 you can look at games like EVE Online which largely fit character progression around a timer. This has issues of its own, so an EVE system couldn't just be copied directly onto Armageddon without some problems. You could run the game in the style of a Fate tabletop game, where all characters are awarded the same amount of character progression at certain points in a story arc, particularly the conclusion. Of course, this would require the game to have a story arc.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Oct 23, 2019 9:18:46 GMT -5
At the end of the day Arms system is based around realism. Typically you learn by doing/practicing. The problem is that while Arms system of skilling up and learning seems realistic on the surface, it really isn't. There is this overall consensus that you have to fail to learn, so players continue seek that fail to get that next skill bump. It's silly to think that people wouldn't be able to learn in others ways, such as solo practice, or simply by watching other people. Unfortunately this isn't taken into consideration. When you go into any class where they teach you a combat skill it's a lot of drills, watching, listening, and that's how most people learn. Of course eventually you spar but sparring is far from the only way to learn. I would argue that sparring is one of the worst ways because you get injured and then you can't fight at all.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Oct 23, 2019 9:19:36 GMT -5
I was an amateur boxer and have trained since my early 20s so I have some personal stake in the argument of how you learn combat skills.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 23, 2019 9:26:41 GMT -5
At the end of the day Arms system is based around realism. Typically you learn by doing/practicing. The problem is that while Arms system of skilling up and learning seems realistic on the surface, it really isn't. There is this overall consensus that you have to fail to learn, so players continue seek that fail to get that next skill bump. It's silly to think that people wouldn't be able to learn in others ways, such as solo practice, or simply by watching other people. Unfortunately this isn't taken into consideration. When you go into any class where they teach you a combat skill it's a lot of drills, watching, listening, and that's how most people learn. Of course eventually you spar but sparring is far from the only way to learn. I would argue that sparring is one of the worst ways because you get injured and then you can't fight at all. Agreed. One of the dumbest things in Armageddon's skill advancement code is that the skill-gain from the "teach" command and the skill gain from doing and failing are on the same skill timer. Overall, the current skill gain system is slapped together as a way of preventing characters from getting too strong too fast - the system is designed to stand against a particular problem rather than for a desired result. And that ends up being a problem, since Armageddon is a game, not a life simulator. |
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Oct 23, 2019 10:43:57 GMT -5
I'm all for suspending my disbelief but to have the ONLY way to learn be: You must do and fail is a definitely not realistic. The teach command is okay but it's rarely if ever used. I've seen it used once since I've been back these past 6 months. It's just a grind game and always kinda has been. Has I've gotten older and don't put 40+ hours a week into the game I've to realize the system is setup to reward those that binge the game and play insane amounts of time.
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Post by lechuck on Oct 23, 2019 11:14:44 GMT -5
I really dislike any form of gain-by-RP. That cure is worse than the disease. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the way Arm's skillgain system works, it's just a few key problems like the need (and, eventually, inability) to fail. SoI and its derivatives had a similar system but without that Wall of No Progress you run into on Arm. It's important for a game like this that people need to actually go out and do whatever it is they're trying to get better at.
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Post by shakes on Oct 23, 2019 11:29:07 GMT -5
I wouldn't play any sort of system where it's gain by RP.
Part of me is in the 'achiever' category and that's just not achieving.
You can spam emotes all day (and people do) but that doesn't mean it's quality.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 23, 2019 11:52:20 GMT -5
The main reason why I think XP-from-RP wouldn't work by itself in Armageddon is because the RP culture around Armageddon is pretty weak. The game is barely RP-enforced as it is. Armageddon also has huge clique problems so depending on players to award XP to one another would be reduced to a joke.
XP-from-RP could actually help improve Armageddon's roleplay quality if such a system was mixed in with other means of gaining XP. But building a roleplaying game solely around that or implementing it in an existing game is a big risk. It only works in the games it works in because of other circumstances and systems in the game.
Perhaps the single simplest change that Armageddon could add to its already existing system for the most gain is one where time is converted to extra XP somehow. Imagine a system where you get one skill point every 6 hours, whether you're logged in or not, that you can put into any skill on your skill sheet. This would raise the prospects of casual play massively; it wouldn't even the playing field, but it would help counteract the negative effects in the current system that come from being a casual player, as well as being a player of any level that has high skill ranks and is difficult to fail.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 12:03:12 GMT -5
Every roughly 42 days of play on a pc is a thousand hours. Most of the long running, immersive games intend to have three, five, or more thousands of hours of play available for an account. Every single one of these games has the problem of comparing character capability at wildly differing points on the arc.
Would it be enough to give every pc 1 utility and 1 craft skill at the highest level for their pc?
Would it be acceptable to give a pc a "skill growth" debt, so that for every point of skill advanced to the pc, no other skill would move until 3 or 5 points of growth was earned?
I have to say I react pretty badly when clanned pcs are given skill combat bumps in "mid stream". Its hard to handwave map knowledge, capability with the combat mechanics, and similar secondary knowledge that are also needed for a believable, effective leader or team specialist.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Oct 23, 2019 14:00:42 GMT -5
I'd suggest leaving the current skill progression alone-- but do away with guild-specific skill bumps and change how initial skills and stats are set based on age-- cap gains from this at high jman or something.
An offline skill progression system similar to what EVE online has would also be pretty baller.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 20:53:23 GMT -5
An offline skill gain system would have some people roll up a pc and not play for the next month.
A static skillgain over time system would turn into where you could hide a pc without interaction for a month.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 21:10:13 GMT -5
That sort of happens already anyway. People go solo twinking on npcs, until their defense/offense is high enough to their liking.
At least this way, they get to stay around people if they want to and participate in plots that are no life threatening, until their they're confident enough in their skills.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 21:20:40 GMT -5
That sort of happens already anyway. People go solo twinking on npcs, until their defense/offense is high enough to their liking. At least this way, they get to stay around people if they want to and participate in plots that are no life threatening, until their they're confident enough in their skills. I expect there would be zero interaction outside of mudsex or waiting out a first year in a clan.
There is a risk in telling people they are better off not playing for some time period. Some wont come back.
As a specific point, how many players would only play 2 karma mage roles, and only emerge from their cocoon every 60 days with a full spell roster and regenerated karma?
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Oct 23, 2019 22:33:22 GMT -5
I think between being mindful of the speed of progression and how much can be progressed at a time or requiring time actually be played for offline progression to even kick in-- there's a lot of variables that can be tweaked there.
Not really a hill I'd die on tho.
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