mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 4, 2019 8:36:21 GMT -5
In a GDB thread "all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?" Greve brings up an excellent point about how the prevalence of PVP "plots" is probably due to the need to fill the narrative void, and the lack of individual character relevance that void creates: At the end of the day, I think the frequency of PKing could be reduced if the game had more of a storyline. PKing often happens because there's no other way for players to feel relevant and powerful. When you've played the same character for months and nothing big has really happened the whole time, your mind begins to see every little controversy as an opportunity to make something happen, and there are very few things you can do to someone that they can't just ignore. Taking their stuff is kind of whatever, every veteran player knows how to effortlessly make more money than they could possibly need. Ruining someone's reputation is nearly impossible in a game where most players know eachother OOC. Maiming is highly frowned upon and will quickly earn you a reputation as a griefer that noone wants to RP with. So people end up PKing. It's the only kind of conflict action that you know will work if carried out succesfully. Stealing someone's couch just doesn't have the same kind of "fuck you" factor. |
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Post by gloryhound on Nov 4, 2019 12:14:21 GMT -5
Which pretty much highlights the futility of playing an achiever-type character in a game with permadeath, one-command kills and a sizeable portion of the playerbase looking for a "fuck you" factor, even if the staff didn't hate building and supporting general player effort. It's kind of amusing to hear these gripes about having nothing to do except to destroy people who are actually trying to do something though, they're a part of their own problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 12:37:37 GMT -5
I lost count how many times awesome plot twists were waiting to be triggered the moment some clan group got codedly strong enough to survive an adventure. Only for the entire clan group to get wiped out and all the plots reset.
I lost count to how many times players group up and are clearly ooc collaborating, do 'nothing' to add to the game, pk quickly for dumbest of reasons, and mostly just train train train. I would watch them for a bit and decide to go entertain ... someone else.
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Nov 4, 2019 12:42:59 GMT -5
Based on this anecdote... Staff must spend a lot of time, not doing anything. Those who are worthy die and those who live are unworthy </3
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Post by gringoose on Nov 4, 2019 13:34:03 GMT -5
I saw that thread and there is another thread complaining about the rampant stealing. The miscreant guild has shifted the meta of the game profoundly and has become the new ranger as the premiere PK guild. All these problems that people are complaining about are solely a result of the changes in the guild system and the players have adapted to this new normal. When rangers were the premier PK guild the meta was "you better be careful when you go out in the desert because you can catch a perraine arrow at any time" which was a realistic response given the game world. Then to "you better be careful leaving your compound or going to the Gaj or going anywhere at all" with miscreant becoming the go to guild choice. The changes to the guild system has singlehandedly abandoned apartment buildings to player activity, abandoned the Gaj of player activity, locked everyone into their compounds and made everyone feel like there is always someone lurking in the shadows.
More story, more writing aren't going to change this meta. Players are only responding to the change in code and it's nothing more than that. Unless the code changes get used to this status quo. Punishing, shaming or nagging players (which seems to be the default response to blame players) isn't going to change it either. Everyone is eager to jump to blaming players but staff created this. If depopulating public spaces is good for the game then keep things the way they are.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 13:52:34 GMT -5
I lost count how many times awesome plot twists were waiting to be triggered the moment some clan group got codedly strong enough to survive an adventure. Only for the entire clan group to get wiped out and all the plots reset. I lost count to how many times players group up and are clearly ooc collaborating, do 'nothing' to add to the game, pk quickly for dumbest of reasons, and mostly just train train train. I would watch them for a bit and decide to go entertain ... someone else. Respectfully, this staff behavior compounds the problem. Recklessness is necessary to see plot. After a player loses a couple pcs that way, they get more cautious and prepare more, until staff gets bored and wanders off.
Why isnt there a middle ground in staff plots between mudsex and clan wipe rpts?
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vex
Clueless newb
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Post by vex on Nov 4, 2019 14:50:11 GMT -5
I lost count to how many times players group up and are clearly ooc collaborating, do 'nothing' to add to the game, pk quickly for dumbest of reasons, and mostly just train train train. I would watch them for a bit and decide to go entertain ... someone else.
So, all of them, clans included?
That's... basically the Arm experience, for most people.
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MartenBroadcloak
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Post by MartenBroadcloak on Nov 4, 2019 14:53:11 GMT -5
I lost count to how many times players group up and are clearly ooc collaborating, do 'nothing' to add to the game, pk quickly for dumbest of reasons, and mostly just train train train. I would watch them for a bit and decide to go entertain ... someone else. Lol you insufferable fuck. the only reason ppl train train train is because -staff put so much time clamping down all ways to get good at fighting + making npcs more max difficult + shutting ppl down becaue theme or something -there is no story so players get bored and leap at any conflict that escalates to pk in no time as PK is basically all u get to work with for conflict on the low rungs but the only way to matter a fuck in anything anyone does is to live and be good at staying alive. so you train train train. and then get ignored.. creating cycle of.. if train train train = expect no support u boring shit if not train train train = group gets wiped by npcs / PK hungry / plot starved pcs before the "cool adventure happens." sux to be you if either = staff ends up having to provide support equal to 0 O wait I see what u did there. |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 4, 2019 15:09:08 GMT -5
It's funny how qwerty can hold an opinion like that and insinuate that it's the shadowboard that's actually trying to destroy the game.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 4, 2019 15:47:28 GMT -5
I saw that thread and there is another thread complaining about the rampant stealing. The miscreant guild has shifted the meta of the game profoundly and has become the new ranger as the premiere PK guild. All these problems that people are complaining about are solely a result of the changes in the guild system and the players have adapted to this new normal. When rangers were the premier PK guild the meta was "you better be careful when you go out in the desert because you can catch a perraine arrow at any time" which was a realistic response given the game world. Then to "you better be careful leaving your compound or going to the Gaj or going anywhere at all" with miscreant becoming the go to guild choice. The changes to the guild system has singlehandedly abandoned apartment buildings to player activity, abandoned the Gaj of player activity, locked everyone into their compounds and made everyone feel like there is always someone lurking in the shadows. More story, more writing aren't going to change this meta. Players are only responding to the change in code and it's nothing more than that. Unless the code changes get used to this status quo. Punishing, shaming or nagging players (which seems to be the default response to blame players) isn't going to change it either. Everyone is eager to jump to blaming players but staff created this. If depopulating public spaces is good for the game then keep things the way they are. Like most complex problems, Armageddon's "PK problem" has multiple causes. The simplest possible solution will probably take a three-pronged approach: - a structured re-balancing of combat and classes with a focus on a reasonable amount of game balance - cries that "the game isn't supposed to be balanced" have been what Armageddon's coders have thrived on, and it's served as an excuse for poorly thought-out programming for over a decade - a focus on a wider game narrative and metaplot, to provide an alternative to the interpersonal plots that lead to petty conflict that doesn't fit the nature of the setting - a unified push against players' demand to "win" and to refocus on collaborative roleplay that fits within the competitive nature of the setting - i.e., supporting a player culture where murder of PCs is viewed as a last resort |
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Nov 4, 2019 16:00:08 GMT -5
I lost count to how many times players group up and are clearly ooc collaborating, do 'nothing' to add to the game, pk quickly for dumbest of reasons, and mostly just train train train. I would watch them for a bit and decide to go entertain ... someone else. dont be surprised at a mass uptick in that shit if thats all it takes |
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Post by jcarter on Nov 4, 2019 19:17:26 GMT -5
I lost count how many times awesome plot twists were waiting to be triggered the moment some clan group got codedly strong enough to survive an adventure. Only for the entire clan group to get wiped out and all the plots reset. I lost count to how many times players group up and are clearly ooc collaborating, do 'nothing' to add to the game, pk quickly for dumbest of reasons, and mostly just train train train. I would watch them for a bit and decide to go entertain ... someone else. i cant even |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 4, 2019 19:37:37 GMT -5
Based on this anecdote... Staff must spend a lot of time, not doing anything. Those who are worthy die and those who live are unworthy </3 Not only that, but qwerty's paranoia on OOC collaboration and the accusation that groups of players exist who "do nothing to add to the game" all sounds very Nergalesque. Not only do staff not do anything, they are incapable of self-reflection and learning from mistakes as a group. |
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Post by pinkerdlu on Nov 4, 2019 19:47:53 GMT -5
>focus solely on roleplay and fun clan activities
>do too much, have too much fun, attract too many players
>get wiped in some fashion by staff
repeat until bored
>start to play cautiously and exercise some OOC knowledge in training your character's essential skills
>get ignored by staff, docked karma and receive negative account notes
>eventually get killed in some meaningless metaplot envisioned by staff and pets or PKed by bored/salty player
Look - I achieved insane stats and skills with Vun/Noose, engaged players with roleplay and took on a leadership role when I could have easily continued to shit around in the North maxing out my offense/defense and mudsexing. I never abused my coded power and never attempted any crazy, absurd PK action. I was very lenient as an opponent. What treatment did I receive in return? Half a dozen tainted arrows from animated d-elves, harassed by staff animations on a semi-regular basis and eventually PK'd by some dude who solely twinks and virtually fucks anything with a hole while staying logged in 24/7 and abusing code knowledge to the max.
But remember, if you play to win, you're doing it wrong (according to staff). As I said in my first post - you can have fun with Armageddon as long as you have zero expectations and you're happy with huffing staff farts and playing out the same age-old tropes, clan set-ups, scenes in the Gaj, etc. The game isn't going to change for the better - I'd happily eat my words if it ever did - but it won't.
I check this forum maybe once or twice a week and it never ceases to amaze me how many times users(/players) manage to reiterate the same ideas, complaints and gripes with slightly different wording, dozens and dozens of times. Yeah, they're all legitimate grievances. But the same thoughts have already been shared, years ago, and have never been addressed by staff or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Qwerty is a perfect example of the contradictory behavior, cluelessness and disdain that most of staff hold for the dwindling playerbase - it can't be reasoned with, so don't bother wasting your time. Just a thought. I know I'm guilty of playing into their hand more than once, but that's in the past.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 7, 2019 15:12:40 GMT -5
I think it's fair to say at this stage that Armageddon staff's defenders have no answer as to why staff either wipe clans or ignore them, and no answer as to why staff repeatedly fail to implement a meaningful plot for the game. The discussion on the GDB mostly blames recent code changes on changes in player behavior, but this doesn't account for staff attitudes prior to poison updates or NPC behavior updates or the new class system. It's clear that staff apathy and inattention are to blame; it's the reason for most of the game's problems.
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