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Post by lyse on Jul 2, 2018 18:13:51 GMT -5
What else is there to know? So a staffer gets a wish up "Hai. I just killed a SLK. He didnt have time to way anyone, but another SLK shows up right afterwards and proceeds to kill me" Clearly, he did have time to way someone as the log clearly shows. So the staffer swoops in and puts the breaks on the entire situation. He/she doesnt pass judgement, he/she just kicks up the ladder to Rathustra. Clearly, they did pass judgement and you left out the part where they disconnected the SLK guy three times. The player sends the log and it all gets figured out. Nobody is stored. I wonder if the mage's 'escape' got retconned and the mage got stored. Would be interesting to see the log of that conversation. SLK player did get stored. Right after he got threatened with "How about we just store you then." Right after he pretty much said "Gee, I hope I get a free pass the next time I'm in the process of getting killed." Which was after 'gick man got whisked away to safety. Why isn't that questionable to you? Did you read the log? How do you nerf a clan activity? Not sure what you're implying here. But the question should be why would staff want to nerf a clan that is perpetually dead? I mean...who plays Delves and for 50 something days? See what I mean? Everything's a little one sided here in this situation. The staffer acted rushly, but he had to rush, because he didnt know the situation and tried to act quickly. This is akin to SWAT moving into a building. They dont stop and figure out who's a criminal and who's not, they put 'everyone' down by force. Nooot the best way handled, but nobody got hurt, did they? I don't and I'm really trying to. It's not one sided. The staffer should not have rushed to do anything but watch, like they usually do, then ask for the log. Instead, they did some very questionable things. One...disconnect SLK player, when SLK player put mercy on. Two...asked him how did he know where to go? The way? Duh? It's really funny Staff is analogous to a SWAT team to you. A SWAT team actually is trained to not hurt someone that is innocent. Staff should not be analogous to a SWAT team anyway. They didn't put everybody down by force, they put one player down by force and gave the other a pass. Either you're refusing to see that or you're refusing to see that. It doesn't matter if they quietly stored the 'gick dude later, it's the fact that they did what they did and how they did it. How do you nerf a Delf clan activity staffside? Kill them off one by one? I can understand running a noble house/GMH into the ground. They're heavily reliant on staffside support. But how do you nerf SLK? What exactly was done? You keep going back to that. Your line of thought is...very uhh but I'm just going to leave that alone. But if you're implying that staff are sitting back saying "We don't like X, let's run them into the ground or kill them." Yeah....I'm going to leave that alone. I've come to the realization that some players are going to see what they want to see regardless of what is put before them. It's ok to say staff messed up. It's ok to say they did something wrong. That's the only way they're going to realize they're doing something wrong...if they actually want to change. I honestly don't think they're really all that keen on changing the way they do things at all, because they keep doing the same kinds of things. I used to think "Gaslighting" and "Victim blaming" were catch alls that were thrown out there to be dramatic. It's becoming very clear that these are very much things that occur on Armageddon. They may not happen all the time, but they happen enough for there to be some serious concern. It's very much a game where you can sit back and say "That doesn't happen to me." until it's happening to you, until you find yourself dropping your own log here or quietly walking away from the game.
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eru
staff puppet account
Posts: 40
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Post by eru on Jul 2, 2018 18:19:52 GMT -5
What else is there to know? So a staffer gets a wish up "Hai. I just killed a SLK. He didnt have time to way anyone, but another SLK shows up right afterwards and proceeds to kill me" So the staffer swoops in and puts the breaks on the entire situation. He/she doesnt pass judgement, he/she just kicks up the ladder to Rathustra. The player sends the log and it all gets figured out. Nobody is stored. I wonder if the mage's 'escape' got retconned and the mage got stored. Would be interesting to see the log of that conversation. How do you nerf a clan activity? See what I mean? Everything's a little one sided here in this situation. The staffer acted rushly, but he had to rush, because he didnt know the situation and tried to act quickly. This is akin to SWAT moving into a building. They dont stop and figure out who's a criminal and who's not, they put 'everyone' down by force. Nooot the best way handled, but nobody got hurt, did they? Nothing was achieved? What does he mean by that? What exactly should've been achieved? The conversation could've resulted in two things. 1) The player proved that everything was legit. This was performed. Nobody got banned, or karma docked, or anything. 2) The Mage's 'escape' got retconned and the mage got stored. That I dont know if it happened, or not. The whole "Well, then why dont we store you thing" is a total asshole thing to do. I'd be curious if it was Noted Liar Noted Liar Noted Liar Nergal, or Seidhr who did this. But clearly the storage got cancelled within 'minutes' of it, so I'm assuming Rathustra interfered. How do you nerf a Delf clan activity staffside? Kill them off one by one? I can understand running a noble house/GMH into the ground. They're heavily reliant on staffside support. But how do you nerf SLK? What exactly was done? That is not what happened. Judgement was passed, the initial decision, other than the banning for calling bullshit, was final. The mage got what he wanted. And his clan activity got nerfed by putting a halt on ~3 different staff-involved plots involving other clans, that were progressing until this point. And I think this is after nergal had his meltdown/ragequit. I might be wrong about that. Either way, I just thought the community would want to see this log. Defend the staff if you like (seems pretty obvious that is your intention) or side with my bud, or do neither. No skin off my back.
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Post by lyse on Jul 2, 2018 18:25:23 GMT -5
Don't even worry about it. Someone had to rush in and blindly defend an action that was clearly wrong. It wouldn't be Arm if it went any other way. I kinda want to know how they've been halting staff run plots now.
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eru
staff puppet account
Posts: 40
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Post by eru on Jul 2, 2018 18:28:23 GMT -5
I think they were his plots that his staffers were in-on and supporting, until the unpleasant hubub.
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Post by shakes on Jul 2, 2018 19:39:50 GMT -5
Stored or otherwise, nobody is going to continue playing when that invisible, unaccountable, harsh hand has descended upon you. That just ruins the story. I don't care how many plots you've got going on, that character is more or less done.
Any time I've run into a limit, whether staff imposed or player imposed, I've become disgruntled with that character and ready to move on into some other avenue.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 1:17:35 GMT -5
My objective on this thread is to allow people reading it to see the issue from 'all' sides. That requires some amount of objectivity and being able to position yourself in the shoes of others. For example. Yes. The log makes it clear. The staffer who is part of that log ... didnt read the log, during the incident. The logs got sent 'after' all of this happened. Which means, they 'didnt' know what happened. It 'wasnt' clear for them. Their goal there is to put a stop to what's going on, until things figured out. They specifically said that very thing with this statement.
A staff member sends: "At this point we are unsure what exactly happened. Only that you logged in at a moment that the other character was near death, and immediately headed out to them, after an immediate IC contact."
The storage of the character was indeed a pretty asshole thing to do. The storage of the character happened on july 3rd, 9:48 and he was unstored on july 3rd, 9:52. Is that what you're calling judgement? A 5 minute "fuck you" storage? The judgement happened after the logs got sent and the player had a conversation with Rathustra. A conversation that didnt get logged unfortunately. And clearly from what is mentioned on this thread, the player was 'not' stored after this conversation. Instead choosing to store himself later, because ... the clan got nerfed somehow?
Also. This here is the reason why I'm trying to keep things objective. Disconnected the SLK guy three times. Where are you getting this? This is where some random dude reads this thread and is like, "Oh damn. Staff disconnects you when you do shit that harms their staff pets". It's not true. The player himself who posted this log does not say this. The elf who 'died' says it was very laggy and crash prone during those moments. I have read the same log you did and I did not see it anywhere implied. And yet you say "Where they disconnected the SLK guy three times". Yes. I am leaving that part out, because it's not true? It's ridiculous even to suggest. Just ask yourself ,"why" would they do it? To give them time to do something? Do what? Teleporting to the room this is going on is as easy as typing "goto elf". Or they could've summoned all of them to staff land. Your statement is untrue, but you say it with such certainty that someone else could read it and think it true. All I am suggesting is to read the log, and try to see it from 'all' sides, before stating guesses, or biased negativity as facts.
I did read the log. The SLK player got stored for 'five' minutes. Just to give things time to get sorted out. This is what a staffer would do to create time before any kind of escalation. That. Not mimicking a crash to log a character out.
Unfortunately, evidently the mage did 'not' get stored after this got figured out. Shakes even played with that character later. THAT is disappointing.
I'm sorry. But I do not find any kind of message, or point in your statement here. They didnt disconnect the player? The question how did he found the way is legitimate question. The mage wished up about it, a staffer swooped in and began investigating. At that moment, the staffer's information is 'zero'. It WAS a mistake on his part to just let the mage go. I guess he went the route of "If in doubt, dont have anyone die" I can 'sortish' understand the staffer's unwillingness to allow the death to occur and only then ask for log and investigate. Because resurrection rules are fucked up and arbitrary, so it was easier to do this, then be a passive watcher. SWAT team are trained to neutralize any possible danger and then others sort out what's going on. Which is in a way what happened in this incident. That is the limit of my comparison.
This whole paragraph is just an immense amount of passive aggressive text that has no actual point. Ohh. I'll write a bunch of stuff, but I'll add that I'm 'not touching it', alluding that what you say is gaslighting and victim blaming. Also. I'm not touching it, so you cant argue my point and try to convince me and others otherwise. You're wrong though! But I'm not touching it, so you cant prove me false!
I mean. You're touching it. Say what you mean. Be objective, be clear. Make a clear argument, so the reader of what you write can study both our points and choose what they agree with.
It is okey to say staff messed up. They definitely mess up plenty. But it's not okey to see staff fault in EVERYTHING, without even trying to be objective. Or be so biased about things, that everything that happens is immediately a weird conspiracy. Much like "if I lost connection, it must be a staffer who's disconnecting me". This is where it starts getting ridiculous, and it's partly why I am 'trying' to at least attempt to allow a person to see a glimpse of 'other' angles of view about various topics discussed here.
All in all. It would've been absolutely awesome if the player had a log of conversation with Rathustra.
I 'am' disappointed that the mage did not get stored.
I 'dont' understand the whole nerf the clan thing. I can sort of understand if the player felt salty and the plots werent moving too well, so he just said fuck it and stored. He had reasons to feel salty about. But that's not "staff purposefully nerfing a clan"
I understand I've been pro-staff lately in my posts. But the statements I offer here are not 'blind'. They're an attempt of being objective. You disagree? Alright. Argue your point. But do so objectively.
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jenki
Clueless newb
Posts: 139
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Post by jenki on Jul 3, 2018 3:48:54 GMT -5
Clearly, they did pass judgement and you left out the part where they disconnected the SLK guy three times. For those who missed the disconnects, check lines 1784, 1931 and 2107.
The disconnects seem suspicious, being seconds apart. Notice that when they log back in they aren't just reconnected as if they had lost connection and been linkdead. Their character was fully logged out of the game and had to re-enter (by pressing "e"). This suggest they weren't just disconnected but fully removed from the game world, three separate times.
If they are are trying to slow someone down, words are probably a less passive-aggressive means of communication than DCing someone. Example: "Please stop a moment and don't kill this guy. Do you have a few moments for a couple questions? Thanks." Something like this is much more effective.
If the staff member doesn't have the authority to deal with a problem (or even talk about it because it looks like they had to refer it to someone else) they probably shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place.
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sneazy
Clueless newb
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Post by sneazy on Jul 3, 2018 6:08:11 GMT -5
Staff interfered with a pk. There's nothing to argue about, if they weren't biased they wouldn't have interfered.
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Post by lyse on Jul 3, 2018 6:08:25 GMT -5
So his main point for being objective is he didn’t see the three disconnects. I don’t think he realizes every objective reasoning he’s putting out there isn’t making staff look better at all.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 8:06:43 GMT -5
I think Qwerty is an SLK. Actually he might even be the staff pet. I've seen him get fairly invested....when SLK are, and always defending staff side...
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Post by lyse on Jul 3, 2018 9:05:51 GMT -5
I think Qwerty is an SLK. Actually he might even be the staff pet. I've seen him get fairly invested....when SLK are, and always defending staff side... Let’s not assume he’s a staff member or a staff pet. Let’s just assume he’s the type of person that likes to play devil’s advocate and pick really strange hills to die on. In his defense, he just conveniently missed important facts: Staff doesn’t usually intervene in a pk. He missed the three involuntary logouts. He seems to have missed the ooc conversation that appeared to have staffer and ‘gick dude vs SLK dude. He seems to acknowledge staff making a threat, then carrying out the threat is OK because it was only for 5 mins. He seems not to realize the best way to defend staff is to not say anything at all. I don’t think he realized when he started asking questions his questions only opened the door to more questionable staff behavior. He asked “How do you nerf a clan” That’s an odd question, especially since that wasn’t even something brought up by anybody else. It’s an odd way to defend staff. Then he brought it up again like it’s normal for staff to nerf clans. So let’s just assume he just enjoys the spirit of a good debate. Except defending anything staff did in this situation is just weird.
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eru
staff puppet account
Posts: 40
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Post by eru on Jul 3, 2018 10:59:50 GMT -5
Usually, people who play devil's advocate and enjoy spirited debate do not sound like oblivious zealots.
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Post by shakes on Jul 3, 2018 12:03:18 GMT -5
To clear up the logouts, the game was crashing a lot for about a week. It crashed before I started chasing down the gick, during the fight with the gick, and then during one of those reconnects between crashes is where I fought and died.
The multiple times it crashed right after the death of the gick was strange to me and I have no evidence as to whether or not it's intentional, but the crashing stopped as soon as the gick went from incap to alive again and then didn't crash for the duration of the time the killer was being accused and scolded.
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jenki
Clueless newb
Posts: 139
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Post by jenki on Jul 3, 2018 17:22:59 GMT -5
If they were crashes the body would have disappears and the guy wouldn't still be mortally wounded, he'd be awake (albeit with negative health). That is if the timestamps on the log are correct (because recent code changes have fixed this). Also the game takes about ten minutes to boot up, or at least not the ten seconds it took to reconnect and log in as the timestamp on the log shows.
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Post by sergeantraul on Jul 3, 2018 18:36:02 GMT -5
Usually I'm skeptical of anti-staff conspiracy theories but this is a pretty cut-and-dried case. Panicky immortal intervenes in PK when he shouldn't have, and then aftermath is not handled correctly.
The main thing is that they should have undone the retcon after investigating and deciding everything was OK. The magicker should have been force stored and definitely not rewarded for complaining that the ONLY way he could have been found when he's on the fucking north road arch in a fucking tent was OOC communication.
I'd forgotten desert elves still have who c, though. It does give them an uncanny ability to quickly organize as soon as more than one is logged in. But that's how they should be, ICly.
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