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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Aug 4, 2018 7:33:50 GMT -5
i don't think anybody is suggesting that a casual player have an advantage over a "fantastic" player also I'm curious as to what your think makes a player "fantastic" in armageddon also there are loads of games out there that aren't glorified skinner boxes where you can win by virtue of grinding your dick off and having an edge soley by virtue of having slightly higher numbers than your opponent wow look at him go lmao reread the adjective u have such a problem with then try again fuck me running my reading comprehension goes right out the window early in the morning edited that post |
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eru
staff puppet account
Posts: 40
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Post by eru on Aug 4, 2018 8:01:24 GMT -5
i don't think anybody is suggesting that a casual player have an advantage over a fanatic player also there are loads of games out there that aren't glorified skinner boxes where you can win by virtue of grinding your dick off and having an edge because your numbers are slightly higher than your opponent's numbers eheheheuheuheuheue. PMS edited his flub out, but quotes are eternallll. Regardless of his ability to read, PMS also swerved right around my question, which was literal, not rhetorical and one just posed to make a point. Buuuut I'll indulge PMS's point anyway, like getting my girlfriend an almondjoy when shes PMSing. If you recall, I listed other ways players could invest their time IG for an advantage, other than grinding. D for effort, buddy, and an F on reading comprehension. |
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
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Post by mehtastic on Aug 4, 2018 8:50:15 GMT -5
I have a question. Is there ANY game where a fanatic player does not have an advantage over a casual? Games of chance, like roulette, if you can even call that a game. Besides that, no. It's understandable that a hardcore player would have an advantage over a casual player in most games. As far as I can tell, no one is arguing otherwise in this thread. But they still throw off the balance for everyone else. They push against a game's design in a way casual players and the normal regular players in between casuals and hardcores do not. And yes, there is an in-between group. I don't consider players to be hardcore unless they are putting so many hours into a game that they have time for little else. To be clear, this is a handful of Armers we're talking about here. Casual players aren't going to get anything out of playing Armageddon as long as the attitude persists that more time into the game = a proportionally higher amount of attention from staff and players. I don't care about a casual player's skills. I care about the fact that staff and other players almost completely ignore casual players when they are logged in. They get almost zero attention whereas hardcore players get the lion's share. In a fair roleplaying game, casual players, hardcore players, and players in-between would get a roughly equivalent percentage of time where they can interact with other players in a meaningful way or get assistance from staff on their plots and efforts. That just doesn't happen. There is no reward for casual players. Instead, they serve as rewards for other players and staff. They're the first people that get fired when their clan goes over the cap. Mostly, they are redshirts during RPTs. Someone no one is going to miss. And there's a place for characters like that in a game like Armageddon. It's just that they're usually NPCs. I suspect that if the balance shifted, not towards casual players, but a general evening-out of the attention that gets doled out, hardcore players would ragequit. Given how much time they pour into this fake world, hell, there's even a slim chance of a suicide. Some players see Armageddon as an escape that much. The hardcore players get catered to the most not because it's fair, because it certainly isn't; but because it keeps the game stable. The game needs the handful of people that spend 8 to 16 hours a day playing Armageddon, because without them, significant parts of the game's roleplaying economy would break down. And in the end, that is what keeps the game just barely alive. |
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Aug 4, 2018 8:59:11 GMT -5
i don't think anybody is suggesting that a casual player have an advantage over a fanatic player also there are loads of games out there that aren't glorified skinner boxes where you can win by virtue of grinding your dick off and having an edge because your numbers are slightly higher than your opponent's numbers eheheheuheuheuheue. PMS edited his flub out, but quotes are eternallll. Regardless of his ability to read, PMS also swerved right around my question, which was literal, not rhetorical and one just posed to make a point. Buuuut I'll indulge PMS's point anyway, like getting my girlfriend an almondjoy when shes PMSing. If you recall, I listed other ways players could invest their time IG for an advantage, other than grinding. D for effort, buddy, and an F on reading comprehension. ey, i'll own up to the goof-- edited mostly to cut out an irrelevant question you listed other ways players could invest their time ig, but the two things you listed almost always require a character to be skilled in some way. building connections and rapports isn't likely to happen unless you're codedly useful, and amassing a fortune isn't likely to happen unless you're codedly useful. to be useful, you're more than likely going to need to be skilled. to get skilled, you have to grind. and to answer your very literal question I'll give one example-- bloodbowl. seeing experienced coaches with high-tv teams losing to fresh 0-0 teams is hardly unheard of there. sort of a moot point to compare other games to arm tho, since most games have a defined win condition where armageddon does not. |
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Post by shakes on Aug 4, 2018 12:58:16 GMT -5
Yeah, there's no defined win condition which is why I find the entire discussion a little weird. On the GDB you've got people complaining that their megaday warrior isn't as tough as a lesser day new class. I've gone through the code, and I just don't see how that's possible UNLESS those megadays were spent in an apartment having mudsex. Kama Sutra (master).
It comes down to the numbers involved in the fight calculation. A new class may be able to get higher rolls, and even if they cap out higher, they're still not invulnerable killing machines. Plus, the time it would take to hit those higher caps is as great a difference as going from apprentice to low advanced. If they're kicking your ass, it's because they've put their time in the ring. They've earned it.
I used to compete in a sport. Amateur stuff and I was pretty mediocre at it (but I was among the best of the mediocres). A mentor in that sport would always say, "you don't lose in the ring, you lose in the gym." Meaning it wasn't your skills that you brought to the actual competition, but how much time you'd spent practicing those skills.
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Post by yourvisiongoesblack on Sept 16, 2018 21:14:09 GMT -5
No, all of the staff involvement I've seen focuses on high power events and "elites", rather than casual players. That's what I just said in my post. There's nothing mechanical in the code that forces the hardcore/casual divide, its the way that staff have shaped the culture of the game in the past. Traditionally they focus on fostering a top-heavy culture, which drives the players to grind and twink so that they can have an impact on the world. If staff allowed good roleplay (and dedicated roleplay) rather than good stats to influence the world, things wouldn't be this way. And there would probably be much less fretting about how characters don't play like they're authentic people in the game world. That play doesn't get rewarded and being the exceptional badass does. Part of the deal here is that a LOT of plots are combat-oriented. Even if staff use rely on templars or leadership PCs to push these kinds of plots, it's typically casual or "regular ole dude" PCs who are able to participate, or even required for the plot to continue. A templar PC usually can't do X without Y number of combat PCs, regardless of how tough they are. Seems like how it should be to me. The "need to be an exceptional badass" seems to fall into the realm of if you want to play a solo killer-for-hire or a feller who just rides around killing shit without dying. For most of the RPT-style events I've seen in the past 5 months, casual combat char players have had a chance to join in Cool Stuff without needing to be a maxed out or, fuck, even a 10 day warrior. Out of multiple RPTs where the chance of dying was Kinda Likely, I have seen only 3 PCs die... and one of those was because a character did something Kinda Heroic but Kinda Dumb. So, I guess my point is that, from recent personal experience, you don't really need to twink your ass off or even be able to beat a 3 day warrior in a fight to participate and have a decently-okay chance of living. Are those players calling the shots? Nah, not really. But just by choosing to participate in a clan, a player, even one that's relatively unskilled code-wise, has the potential to generate more RP/enhance these events. Aside from Really Really Dangerous instant-death situations, there have also been instances where people not directly tied to combat clans have faced widespread danger, but being Real Tuff hasn't seemed to be a requirement to survive these events. I mean, I feel like a PC dedicated to roleplay has the potential to become embroiled in stuff, but, well, it's just easier to do so with a character that has at least, well, some combat skills. The addition of hybrid classes allows non-warriors to have a better chance for players to get in on this kinda action. The RPT/quasi-RPT events haven't been entirely relegated to combat clans, to be sure, if you take into account environmental events that have been occuring. But the fact remains that it is probably easier for the imms to use combat-oriented plots because, well, that's been par for the course for a long while, now, right or wrong. At least it seems like they are attempting to include more non-clanned PCs by area-wide echoes or even tangible, suddenly-appearing physical threats within the city. I don't necessarilly think it's perfect, but it's an improvement, and maybe I'm just a simple-minded rube that likes to hack maafackas up wit bon swordz, but I've been entertained. So, tl/dr, unless a player has a specific goal in mind that requires 100% sneak/hide/backstab or be a 30 day combat char, it seems like there have been avenues for casual players to participate in Cool Stuff (or what I think is Cool Stuff), regardless of coded skill level. |
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