sneazy
Clueless newb
Posts: 115
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Post by sneazy on Jul 10, 2018 6:25:13 GMT -5
Such things as the catholic church behavior over pedo-priests, the penn-state pedo, bill cosby, and the video evidence against racist cops these years past has changed my opinion on how proof should operate.
Where you are skeptical of the words of a supposed victim or people with low post count, I am skeptical of any group/organization that engages in hide and deny. The burden of proof is on arm staff that they take these accusations seriously and do not support this type of behavior. This is not he said/she said. This is a case of she says, they keep quiet and wait for it to go away. Shine a light on it.
#MeToo isn't just about individual events - it is that we are a society that jumps to conclusions about sexual assault/racism victims. Most of you picked which side you believe and started manufacturing reasons inside your head as soon as you heard the accusation. Hell, it's funny to read the fantasies you create saying why you "believe or don't believe" something.
As much as I hope they change society, #MeToo is not my fight because I'm the wrong demographic. I put this here because if you do casually throw away some person's accusation of sexual harassment with no proof either way then you should take a long hard look at yourself. You are why victims stay silent and abusers get away with their behavior.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 10:10:43 GMT -5
Alright, Sneazy.
Imagine you're part of staff. One of your staffers have had this accusation laid on him.
The burden of proof is on Arm Staff? Or the burden to not support this action? Because not supporting these actions equals to a post that legitimizes the accusation, with zero proof of this accusation being real, or ligtimate. So the burden of proof is on Arm's staff? So the accused need to proof themselves innocent now? With 'nothing' to go on? Over internet media? You must be joking. Without logs, or some kind of reliant character witness, this is 'exactly' a he said, she said situation.
What are your step by step actions?
You confront the one accused? He denies it and says it's all BS. You got 'zero' to go on. Not only does the source this is coming from have 'zero' credibility and any sign of actually being a real person, but may have 'negative' credibility, due to a possibility of coming from person, or persons who are actively working to injure you and yours.
So. What are your actions? Give us a step by step.
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faroukel
Displaced Tuluki
What's a story without a villain?
Posts: 201
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Post by faroukel on Jul 10, 2018 10:43:15 GMT -5
I dislike putting the onus on the accused, and how trial by public opinion is now the norm.
I also dislike scum being able to hide behind plausible deniability or lack of proof.
..some people are never happy.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 10:57:09 GMT -5
Well. We got to work with what we've got.
So far. on that forum Whistleblower have posted her accusation. Then another person with a handle of "Heroik" have supported Whistleblower's accusation with a supposed experience of his own. Heroik's GDB account is Zombie. Which was created in June of this year. All together, Zombie made 3 posts, every one of which was urging people to leave the game. He have made an official declaration of "leaving the game, because staff refused to persue the accusations made on a different forum." Yet from his posts, it's seems he either didnt play, quit, or appeared as a 'gone player' since ... the very creation of his GDB handle.
Heroik's post on mudconnector 'sort of' validates Whistleblower's post, by sharing a similar experience. But if you add all the posts to the list of posts made by Whistleblower himself, you wont really notice a difference that it's posted by a different person.
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faroukel
Displaced Tuluki
What's a story without a villain?
Posts: 201
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Post by faroukel on Jul 10, 2018 11:03:18 GMT -5
Agreed, no doubt. I even have (very minor) experience with a false Me-Too claim, when someone I'm distantly related to went through it, and was actually backed by their employer, and vindicated. www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/04/27/tvos-steve-paikin-is-in-the-clear-but-sarah-thompsons-thinking-is-obscure.htmlThat said, with the amount of toxicity and shitty people in muds, no claim really surprises me. But still hear you, if a claim was made by someone with an "identity" to back them up, and was supported by a verifiable second, third, or so on person, it gives a lot more edge to the claim of indecency.
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sneazy
Clueless newb
Posts: 115
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Post by sneazy on Jul 10, 2018 12:29:59 GMT -5
Alright, Sneazy. Imagine you're part of staff. One of your staffers have had this accusation laid on him. The burden of proof is on Arm Staff? Or the burden to not support this action? Because not supporting these actions equals to a post that legitimizes the accusation, with zero proof of this accusation being real, or ligtimate. So the burden of proof is on Arm's staff? So the accused need to proof themselves innocent now? With 'nothing' to go on? Over internet media? You must be joking. Without logs, or some kind of reliant character witness, this is 'exactly' a he said, she said situation. What are your step by step actions? You confront the one accused? He denies it and says it's all BS. You got 'zero' to go on. Not only does the source this is coming from have 'zero' credibility and any sign of actually being a real person, but may have 'negative' credibility, due to a possibility of coming from person, or persons who are actively working to injure you and yours. So. What are your actions? Give us a step by step. You are intentionally being stupid.
They have logs. They have complaint files/emails. They've known each other for years. They have the evidence one way or another. An investigation based on evidence would be trivial. Why do you feign ignorance about every reporting tool in the game? When you log on, aren't your notes to staff still visible after years have gone by? Unless they've done a purge recently, I don't recall any staff communication every going away. That's the power the organization always has dude.
Your homework is to go read about each of the cases I discussed. After the fact, people came out and said they'd seen little disturbing things here and there. Then they went on their merry way (Sandusky (?) taking a shower with a kid at penn state comes to mind) trusting the system would take care of the problem. Records show complaints swept under the rug because no one took them seriously. I'm not going to look up historical events for you.
You've already shown you see it as a "us vs them" problem. You are blind to the problem and I can't help you. I see it as a "right vs wrong" problem and no matter how you frame it, it is wrong to just throw away a sexual harassment accusation just because you don't want it to be true.
Solutions. See the cases I described and decide if their solutions would fit. You're a grown person, change your viewpoint from "us vs them" and the solutions are very simple.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 12:59:56 GMT -5
Alright, Sneazy. Imagine you're part of staff. One of your staffers have had this accusation laid on him. The burden of proof is on Arm Staff? Or the burden to not support this action? Because not supporting these actions equals to a post that legitimizes the accusation, with zero proof of this accusation being real, or ligtimate. So the burden of proof is on Arm's staff? So the accused need to proof themselves innocent now? With 'nothing' to go on? Over internet media? You must be joking. Without logs, or some kind of reliant character witness, this is 'exactly' a he said, she said situation. What are your step by step actions? You confront the one accused? He denies it and says it's all BS. You got 'zero' to go on. Not only does the source this is coming from have 'zero' credibility and any sign of actually being a real person, but may have 'negative' credibility, due to a possibility of coming from person, or persons who are actively working to injure you and yours. So. What are your actions? Give us a step by step. You are intentionally being stupid.
They have logs. They have complaint files/emails. They've known each other for years. They have the evidence one way or another. An investigation based on evidence would be trivial. Why do you feign ignorance about every reporting tool in the game? When you log on, aren't your notes to staff still visible after years have gone by? Unless they've done a purge recently, I don't recall any staff communication every going away. That's the power the organization always has dude.
Your homework is to go read about each of the cases I discussed. After the fact, people came out and said they'd seen little disturbing things here and there. Then they went on their merry way (Sandusky (?) taking a shower with a kid at penn state comes to mind) trusting the system would take care of the problem. Records show complaints swept under the rug because no one took them seriously. I'm not going to look up historical events for you.
You've already shown you see it as a "us vs them" problem. You are blind to the problem and I can't help you. I see it as a "right vs wrong" problem and no matter how you frame it, it is wrong to just throw away a sexual harassment accusation just because you don't want it to be true.
Solutions. See the cases I described and decide if their solutions would fit. You're a grown person, change your viewpoint from "us vs them" and the solutions are very simple.
Logs of what? OOC harassment over AIM/Discord? Whistleblower already said she/he didnt file a complaint, but instead sent an email. What if this was deception and there 'are' no emails sent? How does staff prove that there are no emails? There arent any emails! But if they claim there isnt, then it's just them hiding the evidence? How can you prove that something doesnt exist, when it doesnt exist? If one were to claim that something didnt exist and then suddenly the log of that appeared? Then ohhh, this is some solid shit. But if one claims something doesnt exist and it does not freaking exist, then where do you go from there? There's a few staffers right now who are currently leaking info. The request tool history is open to every staffer of any access. If these complaints exist, they'll appear. And they'll appear in format only a staffer would be able to demonstrate. But what if they dont appear? Is it that there is no such thing that happened, or that staff is trying to hide it? What if emails did exist, but they do not provide logs, or anything else aside what was already posted on the mudconnector. IE everything non-substantial about AIM/Discord conversations with no logs. What should staff do? So alright. In answer to my request about a "Step by step" action. Your answer is for Staff to look through the history of complaints about Shalooonsh that revolved around sexual harassment. Done. Shalooonsh is a pretty acerbic in his animations. But pretty polite and light-touched in his interactions with players. Malifaxis is pretty toxic in his GDB/Discord conversations. The characters he plays are pretty varied. They're all sociopathic monsters, but in a fun way. Since this is an 'absence' of proof, it cant really be presented. You can only present a 'presence' of proof. But okey. Step one done. What's step two? Note: I dont actually 'know' if step one is done. Maybe Staff laughed maniacally about this issue, patted Loonsh on the shoulder, congratulated him for yet one more innocent victimized and continued watching the pair of players mudsexxing. The point of my arguments that there is disapproval about a lack of action from staff regarding these claims. And I'd like to find out what kind of action do people expect? Should Arm just ostracize Shalooonsh, not because he's guilty, but just to please some disgruntled people who are eager to see fault in 'everything' anyway? Should they post the entirety of every request ever made that involved shalooonsh to show there are no logs? 'How' do you expect staff to react to this? How would you act if you were staff? Check logs and request history? Okey. Done. Didnt produce anything. Next?
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Post by lyse on Jul 10, 2018 14:38:06 GMT -5
Meh, the “us vs them” thing has always been old. The “prove it” thing is starting to get old. Here’s why: It’s something you can walk away from.
There’s a Mush called Shangrila where all kinds of sexual deviance is the norm. Supposedly, the rp is good. So you make a character and you run across a character who’s description is a giant oozing dick with herpes sores that wants to rape you. You log out. Not for you.
I’ve shared my first hour and a half on a game called Haven. Not for me. Logged out.
When you get harassed....people are just not likely to stick around. There’s no log, no tugging on staff’s coat tail “Hey...I’m being harassed.” Not usually, you just stop. Keep in mind, we’re talking about a game where people playing Waifus are a thing and it’s assumed if your character has breasts, you’re a sexual object until you’ve proven that you can swing a sword and beat the shit out of people. Even then...so you experience fuckedupness, time to go. Why? Because it’s a hobby. Hobbies are meant to be fun and relaxing. Not file a complaint. Maybe get a result, maybe face some kind of ire be it from staff or players. Hobby.
Arm is full of “Creepy Dudes tm”. So it shouldn’t be surprising that yes there are players that are creeps or even that some of them made staff. There was a thread on the gdb about creepy dudes, so you can’t act like it’s not a thing. In typical GDB fashion it was brought up, some people gave anecdotes, no resolve. Then it was buried by the things people that play Arm really care about and those go on for pages. People are able to overlook amazing things as long as they’re having fun.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 14:46:09 GMT -5
Well. It's true. Arm is full of creeps. All Muds are full of creeps. Internet itself is fueled by Creepology.
It 'is' getting a little over the top, when the profile says that someone abused Imm powers to harass them. Or pestered them via outside of the game means. Discord/AIM. The profile is claiming that she's keeping her anonymity because ... she shared personal information? I dont know. the whole thing is kind of bullshitty.
But fact of the matter is that it is a directed effort to smear a specific person. One SPECIFIC person. A person who has friends, who meets those friends IRL, who has a life, who has a reputation and who does represent Staff. Therefore it 'needs' to be taken seriously. Except there is nothing to really do. There is nothing substantial, except a few low post counts profiles that might easily belong to the same person agreeing with each other.
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Post by shakes on Jul 10, 2018 16:09:29 GMT -5
I remember when Kevin Spacey was accused by one guy. One anonymous guy. I wasn't really ready to believe that one. But then suddenly all these other people, with names and faces, came out of the woodwork to accuse him as well. Suddenly it became real.
BUT because I'm fair, I'm willing to give this Shaloonsh person the benefit of the doubt. There's no logs, no real accusers willing to stand up and be counted. And I mean a current player stating it on the GDB. Even if it gets deleted there, which would be a HUGE breach of trust with their community, it would be more official than a new account posting on Mudconnect or this forum.
The only strike I have against Shaloonsh right now is that he is Maliflaxis. I believe that using one forum account to flame and attack players while you're secretly staff is very unprofessional. You believe you're interacting with someone on equal footing when in reality you're interacting with someone who can and may secretly punish you for your interactions that you presumed were on an equal footing. Very unprofessional.
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Post by lyse on Jul 10, 2018 16:52:57 GMT -5
Well. It's true. Arm is full of creeps. All Muds are full of creeps. Internet itself is fueled by Creepology. It 'is' getting a little over the top, when the profile says that someone abused Imm powers to harass them. Or pestered them via outside of the game means. Discord/AIM. The profile is claiming that she's keeping her anonymity because ... she shared personal information? I dont know. the whole thing is kind of bullshitty. But fact of the matter is that it is a directed effort to smear a specific person. One SPECIFIC person. A person who has friends, who meets those friends IRL, who has a life, who has a reputation and who does represent Staff. Therefore it 'needs' to be taken seriously. Except there is nothing to really do. There is nothing substantial, except a few low post counts profiles that might easily belong to the same person agreeing with each other. Yeah, but you're missing the point. The point is, things like this occur and have been known to occur on Arm. A couple of months ago, someone posted an advertisement on Musoapbox. It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen. Why? Because people came out of the woodwork to say they tried Arm didn't like it and even gave a here's why. Some of the things were eh...kind of stupid. Some of the things though, you had to simply nod and say "Yeah, that's true." One thing nobody did was say "post a log, prove it." Certain things you know happen on Arm. The only thing you can say is "That doesn't happen anymore." Which they did, but yeah offended people do come out of the woodwork to say something. So someone coming out to say they were creeped on shouldn't be unusual, because it's a thing you know happens. Anaiah did post a log where she was creeped on and there was staff involvement. Hell, I've been creeped on. People have different tolerances for things and they will wait a loooong time to say something. Fact. That brings me back to my point which was, most people aren't going to get creeped on and say "Hey, let me log this." they're going to just stop playing. As far as the staff that supposed to be a creep. People are different things to different people and it's doubly so on Arm. Some people say he's great, some people say he's shit. That sounds pretty normal to me. He can be great and still be a creep. If he is Malfaxis I think I played with him in the Byn and I wouldn't call him great or wonderful. He played a weird chracter...that's it. He was weird. So YMMV with that kind of thing. Anybody can be awesome to one person and a douchebag to another. I'm not sure what he did before. But I do know he had to step down. Now he's back..people change, maybe he learned from his mistakes? But saying show a log when he was accused of something when he's known for doing stuff? Nah....
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 17:35:33 GMT -5
He didnt 'had to step down' he chose to quit and when that happened, Arm lost for it. When he returned, he didnt 'learn from his mistakes', he decided to donate his time and writing talent to Arm once again, instead of just plain playing. He does play weird characters. But not 'sexually' weird characters. And he's 'known' for doing ... what? Harassing others OOC to have sex with them in the game? Making discord alts, in order to pester people on discord and ask them if their pictures on GDB are real? This is what the accuser is talking about, not about some dude who likes to fuck female dwarves, because his sister was enslaved and made into a mul Momma.
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Post by shakes on Jul 10, 2018 17:48:23 GMT -5
Okay, I'm out. Y'all are engaging in he said-she said, that's my friend, other people have done it so he must too, sort of nonsense.
You want to talk game mechanics, I'm your man. You want to just throw around allegations from people I don't know against people I also don't know ... that's not for me.
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Post by lyse on Jul 10, 2018 17:57:27 GMT -5
He didnt 'had to step down' he chose to quit and when that happened, Arm lost for it. When he returned, he didnt 'learn from his mistakes', he decided to donate his time and writing talent to Arm once again, instead of just plain playing. He does play weird characters. But not 'sexually' weird characters. And he's 'known' for doing ... what? Harassing others OOC to have sex with them in the game? Making discord alts, in order to pester people on discord and ask them if their pictures on GDB are real? This is what the accuser is talking about, not about some dude who likes to fuck female dwarves, because his sister was enslaved and made into a mul Momma. Why do you need more stories of him being a creep? You're just going to ask for a log. Once is enough. That's what you're not getting. You missed the point again. The point was, he hasn't done anything offensive to me, but that doesn't mean he hasn't done something offensive. A lot of people, even here said he's awesome. A lot of people wanted him back, he came back. That's great? Have you asked yourself "Why him though?" Someone posted someone on staff was having a "I hit it first" conversation about a player. The fact that you're sticking to these things, like they're not in the realm of possibility....nah. Get a grip.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 18:09:32 GMT -5
Why him what? That 'I hit it first thing' was about Seidhr.
Why him? Why him what? Forgive me, Lyse. You're making zero sense. Can you elaborate? Ask for a log? Yes. Once is enough? There are no logs of Shalooonsh. What are you on about? It feels like you dont have anything bad to say, so you're just combining completely out of whack factors in one soup just to give it a negative 'shade' of things. Not just without anything actual substantial, but without even anything that makes sense.
The whole <pose a neutral statement .... nah. Get a grip> is an extremely passive aggressive nonsensical statement that carries 'zero' message, but gives it a 'shade' of doubt, or negative, or whatever. I think most populace of this Forum are intelligent enough to not be swayed by a 'non-message' messages.
Please elaborate your post. Use words. Support your arguments.
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