OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Oct 4, 2017 13:44:37 GMT -5
It definitely must’ve been some kind of shift during that time. When I came back around 2013, the tone of the game was so different I was shocked. Interacting with staff—different, much more terse and formal. Interacting with other players much more whacked out, more people using scripting, less interacting with people they didn’t know. It seemed to me, the game became more of a “me” game and less of an interactive collaboration. That was when I realized there was more than one game being played within the game. Might’ve always been like that, but I realized it upon coming back. That's definitely something that happened to the game. Before Reborn, it was entirely normal for there to be 6+ players in both the Gaj and the Barrel at all times, and people just interacted on a social level that simply doesn't take place anymore. You were able to live the life of your character in a manner that came as close to resembling the real life of a Zalanthan individual as you can possibly expect of a MUD medium. You could simply go about your day and you'd have people to talk to and things to talk about, so much so that I remember spending entire days doing nothing else. Then Reborn and the spec app bonanza happened and everyone became concerned about fulfilling their own Armageddon fantasy, and I do think that this left a permanent impression on how people approach the game. The "me" game is a reality, and I'm certain it stems from the fact that a considerable portion of the playerbase once refrained from quitting solely because they were given the opportunity to play their most self-indulgent dream character. What tops that? What tops having had the opportunity to try a mindbender or whatever? From then on, I imagine it becomes a lot like a drug addiction: chasing that special high that you'll never find again, and fucking up in the pursuit. People now care mostly about improving their characters and little to nothing about enriching the game. They've been conditioned to think, on a subconscious level, that playing Armageddon is about amassing as much power as possible, because the opportunity to do so is the thing that kept them from abandoning the game when it looked about to die, and in doing so, they saw it survive. Needless to say, staff's negligence in recent years then made it so that this became the only meaningful way to actually play, but there were definitely some years where we still had good staff but people nevertheless took part in the unsustainable buffet of that self-indulgent power chase instead of embracing the game.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 16:32:47 GMT -5
That may be possible for some players. I've played over 200 characters in my time in Arm. I feel confident I'm not the only player who has seen day 0 to day 5 just a few too any times. On top of that, attempting any real play outside Allanak these days at least than 20 played is an invitation to lose a character.
The arms race is real, and its not just out of boredom.
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Post by sirra on Oct 4, 2017 16:47:30 GMT -5
It definitely must’ve been some kind of shift during that time. When I came back around 2013, the tone of the game was so different I was shocked. Interacting with staff—different, much more terse and formal. Interacting with other players much more whacked out, more people using scripting, less interacting with people they didn’t know. It seemed to me, the game became more of a “me” game and less of an interactive collaboration. That was when I realized there was more than one game being played within the game. Might’ve always been like that, but I realized it upon coming back. That's definitely something that happened to the game. Before Reborn, it was entirely normal for there to be 6+ players in both the Gaj and the Barrel at all times, and people just interacted on a social level that simply doesn't take place anymore. You were able to live the life of your character in a manner that came as close to resembling the real life of a Zalanthan individual as you can possibly expect of a MUD medium. You could simply go about your day and you'd have people to talk to and things to talk about, so much so that I remember spending entire days doing nothing else. Then Reborn and the spec app bonanza happened and everyone became concerned about fulfilling their own Armageddon fantasy, and I do think that this left a permanent impression on how people approach the game. That's absolutely what happened. I left Armageddon in ~2006 as a hard bitten dwarf merc (Drake). Came back to find everyone fucking whirans and that his friend, an elf Byn merc Sharak (?), (albeit a great player), had become a nilazi psionic or some shit. It really permanently altered the tone of the game. When I left the game, Fathi was on her first character as an adorable Byn runner. When I came back she was the eater of worlds. X-D had been my Byn boss Tarq, and when I came back, he was on a god-tier character too. That was a great Byn crew. I wish they'd never announced Arm Reborn, cause I'd have never bowed out of it, then. These are two of what I consider some of the greatest RPers I've ever interacted with on Armageddon, but the whole change in tone and theme from eking out a Zalanthan existence to one more surreal plot after another was very visible. Imagine how I felt about it when I encountered people who I thought were shit RPers or shit players.
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ibusoe
Clueless newb
Posts: 176
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Post by ibusoe on Oct 4, 2017 18:14:10 GMT -5
On an unrelated note, is Malifaxis still seriously running the game? If so it might be approaching time for a showdown.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 19:15:12 GMT -5
That's absolutely what happened. I left Armageddon in ~2006 as a hard bitten dwarf merc (Drake). Came back to find everyone fucking whirans and that his friend, an elf Byn merc Sharak (?), (albeit a great player), had become a nilazi psionic or some shit. It really permanently altered the tone of the game. When I left the game, Fathi was on her first character as an adorable Byn runner. When I came back she was the eater of worlds. X-D had been my Byn boss Tarq, and when I came back, he was on a god-tier character too. That was a great Byn crew. I wish they'd never announced Arm Reborn, cause I'd have never bowed out of it, then. These are two of what I consider some of the greatest RPers I've ever interacted with on Armageddon, but the whole change in tone and theme from eking out a Zalanthan existence to one more surreal plot after another was very visible. Imagine how I felt about it when I encountered people who I thought were shit RPers or shit players. Ok, fine. You'd like to return to 2005 Arm. What concrete, constructive steps could be taken towards that goal? Also, two of your characters I know about were in the top 10 hardest twinked characters I've ever seen in Arm. Be the change.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Oct 4, 2017 22:37:29 GMT -5
Also, two of your characters I know about were in the top 10 hardest twinked characters I've ever seen in Arm. lol yeah that totally changes his pt
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 7:12:17 GMT -5
Also, two of your characters I know about were in the top 10 hardest twinked characters I've ever seen in Arm. lol yeah that totally changes his pt He's complaining about god tier characters while being a frontrunner in the arms race. Not relevant?
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Post by lyse on Oct 5, 2017 8:21:51 GMT -5
lol yeah that totally changes his pt He's complaining about god tier characters while being a frontrunner in the arms race. Not relevant? In his defense he has mentioned several times he started out just trying to rp and git gud the normal way. The game quickly teaches you that doesn’t work for most people. Just like I said before people don’t want to go on an RPT and get one shotted, people don’t want to go hunting and get carru’d either. It’s a very fine line and a lot of do as I say not as I do behavior. In other words, the movers and shakers who always seem to “find” each other and play with each other are always going to need someone like him. Since that’s how they get things done. He said that a couple times too. It’s a way to be relevant in the game. It’s the culture of the game. It might not be coming from staff, but it’s definitely there. People want to play and feel relevant somehow, because that’s why we play. If you can’t do things, people don’t want to be bothered with you. People immediately respond to strong characters. The game didn’t always have a culture where that was so prominent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 8:40:27 GMT -5
In his defense he has mentioned several times he started out just trying to rp and git gud the normal way. The game quickly teaches you that doesn’t work for most people. Just like I said before people don’t want to go on an RPT and get one shotted, people don’t want to go hunting and get carru’d either. It’s a very fine line and a lot of do as I say not as I do behavior. In other words, the movers and shakers who always seem to “find” each other and play with each other are always going to need someone like him. Since that’s how they get things done. He said that a couple times too. It’s a way to be relevant in the game. It’s the culture of the game. It might not be coming from staff, but it’s definitely there. People want to play and feel relevant somehow, because that’s why we play. If you can’t do things, people don’t want to be bothered with you. People immediately respond to strong characters. The game didn’t always have a culture where that was so prominent. Incidentally, I precisely agree with you about the nature of power creep in the game. What I am objecting to is trying to have it both ways. I think a real value of this board is the opportunity to discuss concrete solutions. Several of the things we've discussed here have caused behavioral changes in the game, so why not make a social compact to make a specific change?
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yoashi
Clueless newb
Posts: 101
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Post by yoashi on Oct 5, 2017 9:12:55 GMT -5
I think coming up with a specific change, social compact not withstanding, is that we've identified a number of "negative" issues, but we can't just "do the opposite" to make things better.
I know when I "hire" someone to do a task, I OOCly want them to be capable. If I say "Can you kill a bahamet" and you say "Yes"... well. I'm asking you to kill bahamets. But if I say "Can you bring me a dozen scrab shells?" and they come back a few RL days later and say "I'm not good enough to keep the shells intact", I am PROBABLY going to find something easier for them to do, or at least pay them for what they have.
I totally get wanting to be relevant, and that is increasingly harder as "relevant" is "relevant to someone fun to play with or important". I find it hard, myself, to care about supplying someone with a dozen scrab shells if they're just going to sell them to the market and nobody cares that I helped, or about the effort I put into it.
So. What are some things players COULD do, to involve other people in more important stuff, without giving things away or doing things "for the sake of it"?
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Oct 5, 2017 9:37:55 GMT -5
I liked how combat skills and balance worked on the original Shadows of Isildur.
Basically, you could become pretty good at fighting in about a month of frequent play, and then another two months or so would pretty much take you to your limits. You could accomplish most of this through training, and military clans had sparring NPCs around during training hours. I can't think of one problem that came from this model. People had skill caps that depended on their choice of stat ordering, they had their choice of fighting styles and weapon types and whatnot. There was plenty of room for characters to stand out and be renowned for their skill, even though you could cap out most of your shit over the course of a summer.
One of the arguments sometimes dragged out to defend Arm's stat/skill system is that they don't want all characters to feel the same, but I never found that characters feel the same in games with better systems. Even though you could cap most skills on SoI in a calendar season, the game wasn't filled with godlike heroes who couldn't lose, nor did all fighters perform the same. One guy's sword skill might be capped at 60 because he prioritized constitution and willpower while another guy could get to 75 because he went all in on dexterity and agility. He would, in turn, be nowhere near as tough; but he might have great stealth. There was, if anything, much more variation between characters on SoI than there is on Arm because you could pick your skills and essentially create your own class.
Instead, Armageddon has a model where it takes a frankly indefinite time to reach your peak. You're almost never done training, so the incentive to grind forever is there. Becoming even decent takes a serious amount of time, and becoming a noteworthy fighter takes so long that people widely embrace cheating in order to accomplish it before they die of old age IRL. Have you tried to master a weapon skill without playing loose and fast with the rules? Have you seen what some people, even clanleads, do to shave some months off that process? That's entirely unnecessary and completely avoidable with a better system.
In turn, when people don't have to feel like they're massively weakening their character whenever they spend time doing something else, they'll be more compelled to take part in other activities. On Arm, players feel so strongly compelled to grind for skills because it's always possible, always necessary in order to stay in the arms race, and because it takes such an absurd amount of time that you get to feeling that you can't afford not to maximize your gains. In such a system, it doesn't take very much disillusionment with the roleplaying environment before you give up on it entirely and start to play text-based Skyrim instead.
This could be a much healthier game if it didn't approach skillgains in this manner. There's no benefit to the way Arm does it, it simply leads people into bad habits and distracts from the things that make a roleplaying game interesting. What's worse, the code overwhelmingly incentivizes doing one thing and then the mores of the game aggressively chastise players for doing that. When you're on your first reasonably long-lived warrior and discover that mastering a weapon skill without twinking is likely to take you the better part of a RL year, is the player supposed to think "well, I guess I can just forget about that"? Or are they not more likely to think "let's find a way to make that process tolerable"? Next step is the discovery that doing so is largely mutually exclusive with roleplaying, because you don't get much interaction from sitting in dark gortok dens. When too many players resort to that, the game ends up feeling really empty.
Twinking is nobody's fault but the game itself, because it's designed in such a way that it's the only thing that makes sense. The wildly random stats, the absurdly wide skillgain scale, the activities required in order to improve past middling levels... this all has compelled generations of players to do something that the staff expressly doesn't want you to do. Don't blame players for that. Armageddon has always suffered from this bizarre conundrum where the code tells you "do this!" while the staff and the Lizzies tell you "never do this!" It's actually one of the most severe failures of game design that I've ever seen, and staff has never been willing to acknowledge that this problem exists. I don't know why.
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yoashi
Clueless newb
Posts: 101
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Post by yoashi on Oct 5, 2017 10:17:27 GMT -5
Even more than that, is the attitude of "If you want to master a weapon skill, you should find a master in the game world to teach you".
I for one would LOVE this system. If I wanted to learn how to master the axe, I should have to train under a master of the axe.
However, that doesn't mean they'll provide the dodges you need to succeed, or that their "teach" gains will actually affect your Advanced level, and by and large they do not exist. It honestly, and I don't know if its true, feels like its a purposeful gate put in so that if someone wants to attain these "high levels of combat", staff have to be informed. They have to know, and provide NPCs to teach, they want to know that you're good at fighting, so they can drop a black mantis on you.
It hasn't stopped me from branching advanced weapons before, and not once have I used them to PK anyone, but I DID have to twink very hard to get them. And nobody cared, until I asked Salarr for a custom Knife-weapon, and THEN suddenly I was being watched and animated around, and Nyr stepped into stop my twinkery. I didn't want to HAVE to do all that! I don't WANT to twink, but the game both allows and encourages it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 10:26:49 GMT -5
I think coming up with a specific change, social compact not withstanding, is that we've identified a number of "negative" issues, but we can't just "do the opposite" to make things better. I know when I "hire" someone to do a task, I OOCly want them to be capable. If I say "Can you kill a bahamet" and you say "Yes"... well. I'm asking you to kill bahamets. But if I say "Can you bring me a dozen scrab shells?" and they come back a few RL days later and say "I'm not good enough to keep the shells intact", I am PROBABLY going to find something easier for them to do, or at least pay them for what they have. I totally get wanting to be relevant, and that is increasingly harder as "relevant" is "relevant to someone fun to play with or important". I find it hard, myself, to care about supplying someone with a dozen scrab shells if they're just going to sell them to the market and nobody cares that I helped, or about the effort I put into it. So. What are some things players COULD do, to involve other people in more important stuff, without giving things away or doing things "for the sake of it"? My snap answer is "be willing to hurt pcs without killing them". A big part of the arms race to me is that I know where a couple pkillers are. Until those characters die, I have to avoid that section of the map, or be able to go head to head to have a character with any kind of story. I'll admit I grind without story until I feel like I can risk contact with other pcs. I suspect that a group of players could agree to have characters in the Byn without extended subguilds. You'd get one or two outliers, but a group of characters without protectors, slipknives, and empowerment ruks would probably feel more level. This in turn, would give more opportunity to let some people shine. There was a period in the Byn with Russ and Ryatt as Sergeants was a good example of what pcs can do as flawed leaders. There was corruption, graft, politic-ing, and enough pcs that there was always something going on. I wont claim to know how to fix merchants. I stopped playing them even though I like them, because I find them pointless outside of gearing up other pcs.
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yoashi
Clueless newb
Posts: 101
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Post by yoashi on Oct 5, 2017 10:38:21 GMT -5
I TRIED to be corruptible on my recent Byn Sergeant. To the point of "I'll do anything and pay anyone whatever to keep the loyal people in my unit alive". Even to the detriment of protecting a very nasty elf who kept getting in trouble.
And yet, he was killed, because he made a deal with the Crimson Wind to never purposefully kill anyone in his Unit, or anyone his Unit was escorting. It was a DESERVED death, but it was an immediate "Nope. No chance, no discussion, no anything. Backroom gank this ho".
So. Honestly. Even if it makes for an interesting or fun role? People are too willing to flex their muscle. I'm not saying he didn't DESERVE to die, but he had paid off Templars to the sums of like 4000 coins each just so his unit would be left alone, and that didn't earn him better than a public execution.
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Post by lyse on Oct 5, 2017 12:08:37 GMT -5
Incidentally, I precisely agree with you about the nature of power creep in the game. What I am objecting to is trying to have it both ways. I think a real value of this board is the opportunity to discuss concrete solutions. Several of the things we've discussed here have caused behavioral changes in the game, so why not make a social compact to make a specific change? I think we’re on the same page with a lot of things. Him being a twink has no bearing on what he said and you bringing that up only reinforces what he’s been saying the whole time. To put it another way; he became a twink because of what the game has become. You quoted me, so I’d think you’d understand that. unless you have some kind of bone to pick with him, I’ll leave that discussion for you and him. The game has become very distilled, divided into camps. No solution is going to make everyone happy. The first thing that needs to happen is a very hard discussion needs to happen. Now that’s not going to be pretty on either end, because both players and staff are going to be holding up a very ugly mirror to each other. There’s going to be a lot of blaming and it’s going to be equally valid. Some serious coding is going to have to go into effect to make things have more meaning. Once you get out of the survival game (0-5 days) you have to make up things for yourself to do. If you’re not good at that, you might as well log off and play Fallout or hope you bump into someone that is. Some more complexity needs to be added because as it stands, once you get out of the survival stage not much else has meaning. As it stands having a bunch of money is doable, killing all the things is doable, but once you’ve unlocked those achievements....now what? I know...use that money to hire someone to kill elf, right? I know...go fight that thing that can hit you for 100 health and it’s shell is only worth 100 coins.....except someone can already buy them in the bazaar, so they really don’t need you. The system itself needs to be a little more robust. The blame doesn’t all go to staff though. Players have to be more willing too. It’s gotten better, people seem to be more willing to engage each other besides that cool pose you had of you riding away from me on your alias trigger when I walked into the room. But there still leaves a lot to be desired. The first time I ever joined Kurac was because some random dude took the chance to rob me while I was out grebbing. He did a scene with me, I knew he was going to try to rob me. I could’ve been a mage and blasted his ass, he took a chance and I took a chance that he wouldn’t kill my fresh out of chargen ass. Everyone trips over themselves to play with newbies, but fuck everybody else(don’t forget to vote!). Start by engaging people that are playing and newbies will come. That has to be something players decide to do for each other. So you’re right you can’t have it both ways, yet the game works both ways. That’s part of the problem.
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