jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Sept 13, 2017 4:13:15 GMT -5
I guess the main difference is that Sanvean and Halaster were objectively, bad staffers. Whereas those that took over from them, namely Nyr, Adhira and Nessalin were objectively, bad people. lmao @ ness 'taking over' from san and hal get ur history straight first before talking shit lolol Another thing that San and Hal never did, was that they didn't use bureaucracy as an excuse to do as little as possible, which Adhira raised to an art form. true And you know what the BEST part about Sanvean and Hal was? When they lost interest in the game, they FUCKED OFF and did other things to amuse themselves. They didn't try and drag the game down with them. even tho san tried making $$$ of the game and hal dragged down players with his op stafvatar antics, otherwise true It was also possible to have a real conversation with Sanvean and Hal. There was something resembling a real person behind the screen. The best you could hope for from Adhira, was a semi-benevolent neglect, as she treats her many cats. Nessalin, with his dead pig eyes was entirely indifferent. Nyr was ironically, the only one who you could even partially engage with, and he was mostly pretending. Those three remained the core decision makers, even as a number of good staff came and went around them. u can keep all the shit on san and hal but its clear ur talking out of ur ass on the rest ness was overlording years before either of those two began playing, so following ur logic this he was also responsible for all the greater staffers u loved or he wasnt responsible for any of the staffers good or bad
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Sept 13, 2017 13:57:11 GMT -5
Sanvean, certainly I can vouch for her diplomatic way of doing things. Many times I was unbanned by her and she would sit me down and talk to me. I felt like I was going to the principals office. Halaster? Hmm. I have a fond memory of him rolling up on my character in the forest and using the slay command on me because I didn't respond to him quickly enough (I was semi-afk doing homework if I remember correctly). Is that really someone you can talk to? Knowing that Halaster fabricated my death many times over with his staff avatars isn't the person I would ever consider talking to. Sanvean was good for the game because she understood one little thing, she always kept a clear line drawn in the sand between IC/OOC. My biggest issues with the rest of the staff were that they couldn't distinguish this line much less help themselves from crossing over it constantly.
Sanvean would transfer me and when we were talking it was all OOC. Once it was over I went back to my IC world and she had no power there. Halaster on the other hand (and Bhagharva and many other staff I am sure) would do the opposite. He would use the IC world to "get" me the player Delerak instead of it being an actual IC action it had OOC motivations. I wouldn't even mind it I mean plenty of people do things IC that are motivated by OOC desires, but the biggest problem I had with it was there wasn't an even playing field. If I talked shit to HotDancer and we fought with our d-elves it was an even playing field. I remember getting a message from an old staffer that said he loved our little feud because he never knew who would come out on top. With staff avatars there is no winning, how can I fight a maxxed defiler with custom-code? It makes the game fucking pointless to me and is ultimately the reason I never came back to play and never will.
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Post by sirra on Sept 13, 2017 17:44:55 GMT -5
I guess the main difference is that Sanvean and Halaster were objectively, bad staffers. Whereas those that took over from them, namely Nyr, Adhira and Nessalin were objectively, bad people. lmao @ ness 'taking over' from san and hal get ur history straight first before talking shit lolol STFU. I know Ness was there for years before, but he was always a disease, and for a long time, he was in the background and overshadowed by the others. He also took extended breaks from the game. He didn't become as influential as he did (nature abhors a vacuum) until many of the other staff left. At some point, Ness lurked his way into being some kind of elder statesman out of sheer longevity, despite being manifestly unsuitable for it. And I know for a goddamn fact his influence has waxed and waned on the game. Trust me. I'm extremely familiar with Ness' tenure on the game. And if all you have to defend him is a mistaken belief that I didn't realize he was there before, then blow me. When I said 'took over', I meant they became more of the locus of decision making as internal staff politicking is concerned, as opposed to before. I think most people around here assumed I meant it that way.
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Post by sirra on Sept 13, 2017 18:44:28 GMT -5
Sanvean, certainly I can vouch for her diplomatic way of doing things. Many times I was unbanned by her and she would sit me down and talk to me. I felt like I was going to the principals office. Halaster? Hmm. I have a fond memory of him rolling up on my character in the forest and using the slay command on me because I didn't respond to him quickly enough (I was semi-afk doing homework if I remember correctly). Is that really someone you can talk to? Knowing that Halaster fabricated my death many times over with his staff avatars isn't the person I would ever consider talking to. Sanvean was good for the game because she understood one little thing, she always kept a clear line drawn in the sand between IC/OOC. My biggest issues with the rest of the staff were that they couldn't distinguish this line much less help themselves from crossing over it constantly. Sanvean would transfer me and when we were talking it was all OOC. Once it was over I went back to my IC world and she had no power there. Halaster on the other hand (and Bhagharva and many other staff I am sure) would do the opposite. He would use the IC world to "get" me the player Delerak instead of it being an actual IC action it had OOC motivations. I wouldn't even mind it I mean plenty of people do things IC that are motivated by OOC desires, but the biggest problem I had with it was there wasn't an even playing field. If I talked shit to HotDancer and we fought with our d-elves it was an even playing field. I remember getting a message from an old staffer that said he loved our little feud because he never knew who would come out on top. With staff avatars there is no winning, how can I fight a maxxed defiler with custom-code? It makes the game fucking pointless to me and is ultimately the reason I never came back to play and never will. It was not my intent to draw any kind of direct correlation between Sanvean and Halaster. Obviously, they were different people and handled things very differently. Sanvean, like you said, was far more diplomatic. But I don't know. Halaster, for all of his dickishness, was willing to get down and dirty with you. I never got the sense from him, that he felt himself a better person OOCly than anyone else. He didn't have that faux-intellectual smugness that say, Nyr has. He was more like a force of nature, or a capricious deity and more importantly - a lot of the time he was funny. He never took himself too seriously. He knew he was playing a game. He was NOT a good staffer. But if you have ever played a tabletop RPG, you'll know that bad GMs/DMs like him are quite common. And I know you had some particularly bad interactions with him. But in the grand scheme of things, you had to be a little outrageous yourself to really attract his attention, and it could be both a blessing and a curse. Some of my best Arm-related memories took place on the outskirts of Halaster's madness. And I think the game lost something, both good and bad, when it started taking itself too seriously.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Sept 13, 2017 18:57:12 GMT -5
What does this translate to? Sure he got down and dirty with me by killing me over and over again in a contest that I could never win.
There are winners and losers in everything, and I was a loser in this regard, period. You were one of his winners apparently, that's fine, I'm happy you have fond memories of playing with his avatars or whatever the case amy be.
I will confidently claim that Halaster drove more players from the game than he led to it. That's a bad thing, in fact I would say one of the worst. I don't care how much good you do it doesn't cancel the bad.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
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Post by jkarr on Sept 13, 2017 19:54:14 GMT -5
lmao @ ness 'taking over' from san and hal get ur history straight first before talking shit lolol STFU. I know Ness was there for years before, but he was always a disease, and for a long time, he was in the background and overshadowed by the others. He also took extended breaks from the game. He didn't become as influential as he did (nature abhors a vacuum) until many of the other staff left. influence was meaningless because his word has always been last its why hal got the boot At some point, Ness lurked his way into being some kind of elder statesman out of sheer longevity, despite being manifestly unsuitable for it. And I know for a goddamn fact his influence has waxed and waned on the game. hes always had the control whether or not he decided to involve himself Trust me. I'm extremely familiar with Ness' tenure on the game. And if all you have to defend him defend him against what i just corrected ur statement by saying ness was in power the whole time When I said 'took over', I meant they became more of the locus of decision making as internal staff politicking is concerned, as opposed to before. I think most people around here assumed I meant it that way. yeah then try saying it like that next time It was not my intent to draw any kind of direct correlation between Sanvean and Halaster. Obviously, they were different people and handled things very differently. Sanvean, like you said, was far more diplomatic. true and way too nice But I don't know. Halaster, for all of his dickishness, was willing to get down and dirty with you. more early staff were like that and even some later like faxis I never got the sense from him, that he felt himself a better person OOCly than anyone else. He didn't have that faux-intellectual smugness that say, Nyr has. never knew or cared what some staffer thought oocly as long as he wasnt fucking over my chars with it He was more like a force of nature, or a capricious deity and more importantly - a lot of the time he was funny. He never took himself too seriously. He knew he was playing a game.he knew it too much to the point where he abused his invincibility to repeatedly fuck over players who didnt do things how he wanted And I think the game lost something, both good and bad, when it started taking itself too seriously. well idiots like him who abused their privileges are the reason staff arent given that leeway anymore
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Post by sirra on Sept 14, 2017 1:31:53 GMT -5
What does this translate to? Sure he got down and dirty with me by killing me over and over again in a contest that I could never win. There are winners and losers in everything, and I was a loser in this regard, period. You were one of his winners apparently, that's fine, I'm happy you have fond memories of playing with his avatars or whatever the case amy be. I will confidently claim that Halaster drove more players from the game than he led to it. That's a bad thing, in fact I would say one of the worst. I don't care how much good you do it doesn't cancel the bad. STFU. I know Ness was there for years before, but he was always a disease, and for a long time, he was in the background and overshadowed by the others. He also took extended breaks from the game. He didn't become as influential as he did (nature abhors a vacuum) until many of the other staff left. influence was meaningless because his word has always been last its why hal got the boot At some point, Ness lurked his way into being some kind of elder statesman out of sheer longevity, despite being manifestly unsuitable for it. And I know for a goddamn fact his influence has waxed and waned on the game. hes always had the control whether or not he decided to involve himself Trust me. I'm extremely familiar with Ness' tenure on the game. And if all you have to defend him defend him against what i just corrected ur statement by saying ness was in power the whole time When I said 'took over', I meant they became more of the locus of decision making as internal staff politicking is concerned, as opposed to before. I think most people around here assumed I meant it that way. yeah then try saying it like that next time It was not my intent to draw any kind of direct correlation between Sanvean and Halaster. Obviously, they were different people and handled things very differently. Sanvean, like you said, was far more diplomatic. true and way too nice But I don't know. Halaster, for all of his dickishness, was willing to get down and dirty with you. more early staff were like that and even some later like faxis I never got the sense from him, that he felt himself a better person OOCly than anyone else. He didn't have that faux-intellectual smugness that say, Nyr has. never knew or cared what some staffer thought oocly as long as he wasnt fucking over my chars with it He was more like a force of nature, or a capricious deity and more importantly - a lot of the time he was funny. He never took himself too seriously. He knew he was playing a game.he knew it too much to the point where he abused his invincibility to repeatedly fuck over players who didnt do things how he wanted And I think the game lost something, both good and bad, when it started taking itself too seriously. well idiots like him who abused their privileges are the reason staff arent given that leeway anymore I've already said that Halaster was a bad staffer. He could be brutally unfair. He used to kill people with some kind of dildo rape machine object. However. I enjoyed Armageddon more when it had kanks and horrific humor, as opposed to what it became later on. That doesn't make me pro-Halaster, so much as it makes me anti-Nyr. I preferred his juvenile sense of humor to indifferent contempt (Nyr, Adhira, Ness). As for driving people away. I think Nyr and Nessalin have him beat there by an order of magnitude. I saw Nyra and Adhira pretty much singlehandedly kill off entire clans that were rocking before they were cycled in charge. If my opinion of Halaster seems overly nostalgic to some, it's because he was more easily relatable than the Orwellian, North Korea-esque echo chamber the game became.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
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Post by jkarr on Sept 14, 2017 3:09:09 GMT -5
What does this translate to? Sure he got down and dirty with me by killing me over and over again in a contest that I could never win. There are winners and losers in everything, and I was a loser in this regard, period. You were one of his winners apparently, that's fine, I'm happy you have fond memories of playing with his avatars or whatever the case amy be. I will confidently claim that Halaster drove more players from the game than he led to it. That's a bad thing, in fact I would say one of the worst. I don't care how much good you do it doesn't cancel the bad. influence was meaningless because his word has always been last its why hal got the boothes always had the control whether or not he decided to involve himselfdefend him against what i just corrected ur statement by saying ness was in power the whole timeyeah then try saying it like that next timetrue and way too nicemore early staff were like that and even some later like faxisnever knew or cared what some staffer thought oocly as long as he wasnt fucking over my chars with ithe knew it too much to the point where he abused his invincibility to repeatedly fuck over players who didnt do things how he wantedwell idiots like him who abused their privileges are the reason staff arent given that leeway anymore I've already said that Halaster was a bad staffer. He could be brutally unfair. He used to kill people with some kind of dildo rape machine object. However. I enjoyed Armageddon more when it had kanks and horrific humor, as opposed to what it became later on. That doesn't make me pro-Halaster, so much as it makes me anti-Nyr. I preferred his juvenile sense of humor to indifferent contempt (Nyr, Adhira, Ness). As for driving people away. I think Nyr and Nessalin have him beat there by an order of magnitude. I saw Nyra and Adhira pretty much singlehandedly kill off entire clans that were rocking before they were cycled in charge. If my opinion of Halaster seems overly nostalgic to some, it's because he was more easily relatable than the Orwellian, North Korea-esque echo chamber the game became. well u had me at kanks and horrific humor, and everything else was pretty on point gg
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Post by lyse on Sept 14, 2017 13:22:29 GMT -5
I thought about responding to this a few times over the last couple weeks. I'm hesitant to say that Armageddon Mud is failing or has failed. It failed me in some ways that make me not want to play for periods of time, then I come back. Why come back? Part of it is nostalgia, those simple days in college when I had class two days a week and could play from whenever to whenever. There's a little warm fuzzy you get when you log on and see the mantis head, I'm 19 again no kids, no husband, no responsibilities just a girl playing pretend. But then reality sets in. I'd consider myself a casual player and kind of a prototype gamer girl (born about 10-15 years too early), so I'm coming from a perspective that might be a little different, but not unique. So where does arm fail me?
1) The cult of Arm. This one cracks me up, but it also makes me a little sad. Ever been browsing the GDB and you read somebody's comment that's a little like WTH? A couple that stick out in my mind (I'm paraphrasing here): You shouldn't use the ooc command like ever! Or you must play during these times or else. You know the cult, because they take the game very, very seriously. To the point where whatever their idea of the game is...literally is. You'd better not say anything about the game, they're all over it at worst, at best any dissension simply does not compute. This has gotten better, but there was a point this was scary, if you were in certain circles you got things maps, lists, you name it. If you aren't, the game is palpably different for you. That new thing you found you thought was so cool. Yeah everybody else knew about it, but you and the other plebs. But hey, keep at it and maybe you'll get accepted in a circle and you'll be included in "things". Except most people don't.
2) Characters unrealized. I don't mean branching advanced weapons or having a fort somewhere. I'm talking about having a concept you really think would be awesome. You excitedly write up a bg and description, you're ready to go. You get into the world and you get shitted on repeatedly by players and staff, until what was your awesome concept is a shadow of what you imagined and you're a walking extension of your score sheet. Because you've already been sniffed as X class, your concept s outside of that...nuh uh! Or the docs say X why would you be trying to do Y? The clan higher ups say NO! Gtfoh! Now you're bland ranger or craft machine merchant. You store, die or live a really long time. Nobody really cares, but you feel cheated. You might try again, you might not. You find yourself not really having a reason to care about certain things. I sometimes find myself thinking "why would my character even care about this?"
3) a world that doesn't make sense/lack of complexity. Ever rolled an assassin and said to yourself "why the fuck am I climbing up on rooftops killing snakes? Wtf does this have to do with my concept?" Not only that but you have to do things like that all the time. Ever joined a clan and said to yourself "so let me get this straight....we sell birds? That's it? Nobody cares about that" There it is, your character's very existence centers around something nobody cares about. If you made a list of things that don't make sense....you'd see hand waving isn't good enough.
I lumped complexity together but it goes with things not making sense. Somehow we've moved to a more social/political game. Cool! Sign me up! Except...except the game doesn't really have a social system. How do you measure who is the premier house in a city state? How do you measure how much of a reputation a character has? How trustworthy they are? The most fleshed out system is the fighting/crafting system. It needs social commands. The funniest thing is the "This isn't a MUSH" mantra...Mushes have social systems in place where social things are tangible. Your only recourse in many cases are "kill dude" or "ignore dude". There's no way to weaken somebody economically or socially. All it comes down to is whether you're willing to log on at 3am or...well you get the idea.
These are all things that are fixable. The easiest thing is a reboot. Same game, but rewrite the docs, smooth out some things, make things make sense again. Start over without starting over. We'll call this a soft reboot. A hard reboot, Arm 2.0. I'm not talking about the one with cat people. Set it 1000 years in the future, hell set it 1000 years in the past. Change everything around. A reboot probably has been a long time overdue, 25 years of crazy lore. Even comic books get rebooted after 20 years.
The second is make the game more episodic. Tell the players what the arc is going to be about, how long it will last. For example to use an old plot The fall of Tuluk. Open up the clans that will be relevant to the arc, what their situation is, etc so that players can base their character around the situation. You won't have players apping into dead clans, things have a context and players have an idea of what to do expect. I think this would be the best option to make the world more interesting and put a large number of staff together on one thing which would make the world more alive.
I still think the game is fixable and could be very captivating.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
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Post by jkarr on Sept 14, 2017 13:54:51 GMT -5
The second is make the game more episodic. Tell the players what the arc is going to be about, how long it will last. For example to use an old plot The fall of Tuluk. Open up the clans that will be relevant to the arc, what their situation is, etc so that players can base their character around the situation. You won't have players apping into dead clans, things have a context and players have an idea of what to do expect. I think this would be the best option to make the world more interesting and put a large number of staff together on one thing which would make the world more alive. +1 but if u do the bold part make it so its integrated ig information like stuff ppl would know about or a timeline addition if its big enough
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ibusoe
Clueless newb
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Post by ibusoe on May 27, 2018 10:01:39 GMT -5
I'm not convinced. I'd have a hard time playing a post-apocalyptic game that didn't include rape. I understand that probably makes me sound like an edge lord, but I'd rather play a fast-food restaurant employee simulation than play a post-apocalyptic game where you can't rape the other characters.
Murder...Corruption...Betrayal....but no forced sex? I'd be okay with doing a MUD adaptation of the Office, or something. But a violent game should include rape.
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Post by julio on May 27, 2018 12:24:28 GMT -5
I'm not convinced. I'd have a hard time playing a post-apocalyptic game that didn't include rape. I understand that probably makes me sound like an edge lord, but I'd rather play a fast-food restaurant employee simulation than play a post-apocalyptic game where you can't rape the other characters. Murder...Corruption...Betrayal....but no forced sex? I'd be okay with doing a MUD adaptation of the Office, or something. But a violent game should include rape. I agree. It's way too weak. Murder is infinitely worse than rape. If you murder you get a much much longer jail sentence than rape. But in Armageddon, I can murder, maim, torture, make them eat their own testes after cutting them off, but god forbid your dwarf sticks this stubby little toilet paper-roll penis in ass of the elf who tried to pick-pocket him in lieu of murder.... ohh that's too severe. Murder is a better bet.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on May 27, 2018 13:24:08 GMT -5
I believe the banning of rape had more to do with how shit most people are at roleplaying around it, as opposed to some moral stance.
Far too many players were far too willing to take up their torches and pitchforks against anyone who was even -hinted- to have raped someone else. Hell, I've even had a character catch shit from a superior when shrugging and saying, "do we really give a shit?" when one of the newer runners tried accusing a trooper of some indecent act .
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punished ppurg
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Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
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Post by punished ppurg on May 27, 2018 14:03:24 GMT -5
Why don't you sick dudes just kill the person and take advantage of their corpse? That's allowed. That should be enough for you.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
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Post by jkarr on May 27, 2018 15:43:01 GMT -5
Why don't you sick dudes just kill the person and take advantage of their corpse? That's allowed. That should be enough for you. because genius its sweeter when they struggle
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