Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2016 17:45:28 GMT -5
The playerbase should be responsible enough to be properly superstitious. Are you new to Armageddon? Someone keeps messing with a group of three on a flat plane - no cover in sight in the middle of the day. We decided that it had to be a ghost and turned tail because, well, there's no other way to reconcile that. "Maybe it's just someone who's so good at hiding that they can repeatedly fuck with different people all standing together without being noticed." Players are responsible enough to be improperly superstitious anyways. 😉 |
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Jul 19, 2016 18:03:48 GMT -5
Except you're describing a coded scenario. If whoever had been messing with you had become visible at some point would you guys have been like. HI STRANGER, HAVE YOU SEEN THE GHOST?
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Post by sirra on Jul 19, 2016 18:32:51 GMT -5
With the gender thing I think the reason it's stated as firmly as it is on the GDB is just so no one feels like they're going to be seen as "weird" for making the character they want to make the gender they want to make. They're declaring something that's over-the-top in order to achieve the mean, Aristotle style. I think all that really matters is that your female character isn't expected to be a pretty princess or told that she will always be an inferior fighter and your male character isn't mocked and called less of a man for being a floofy aide. It's about world building. Sometimes you have to make a cohesive culture or environment, that people will intuitively understand, without having to twist themselves around or keep in mind bizarre, senseless things (Cross reference Nyr/Tuluk). There's no use pushing a narrative on the GDB if everyone ignores it. I.E, that men and women are physically and socially equal in every respect, and its abnormal to expect men or women to be more often drawn to different occupations. Babies apparently come from magick, or else every profession in Armageddon has Swedish level of paid maternity leave. A society where they will fucking kill you for a drink of water, apparently finds it beyond the pale to hinder your next promotion because you got pregnant and can't really fight for the next nine months. It's ludicrous to import that level of social justice into a comically over-the-top unjust society. ALSO. It's worth considering that the kind've people who are drawn to say, making female fighters, or floofy male aides...Are doing so because they enjoy the possibility of pushback or being seen as different, or having to prove themselves. It's an iconic trope of fiction. I find it not just ridiculous, but risible, that they'd push such an obnoxious policy, simply to make sure everyone ROLEPLAYS being happy and equal. Mechanically and codewise, they are already equal, and that's all that matters. There shouldn't need to be any SJW hand holding about how to RP around gender. And again. I'm betting that 99% of the players that want to make tough female warriors or floofy males are doing it out of the expectation that they'll be playing along with tropes established in 99.99% of ALL OTHER FICTIONAL MEDIUMS, where better writers than Armageddon staff's have gone with the flow of our most basic/fundamental/hard to ignore human conditions, instead of handwringing about it. So in the end, the policy actually does more to harm the majority of people who'd like those concepts. But it doesn't really, cause most everyone ignores it. That's why it's fucking stupid, and that's why defending it is fucking stupid. RE: GICKERS ALL of the above on a thematic level, but they're coded to fucking amaze-balls, making the phenomena of competing to suck them off (or be an Oash noble), all the more prevalent. Thematically, it's hilarious to think that Oash's close association with gickers is supposed to be a kind of drawback or stain on their reputation. In game, they're the only House that actually means anything, or has any access to the big plots. The other houses are almost always a bunch've powerless jackholes there for flavor. Blah blah that one Tor guy, who staff subsequently black listed from playing nobles again. If genders were coded like gickers, then they'd claim men and women are equal, but give all men a strength boost in chargen, and still get upset when everyone ICly acts as if the best fighters are men. They already act that way ICly, but it's owing to our human condition, and not to code, of course. 99% of twinks are men, and 99% of them don't like playing female characters and getting hit on. Is Friday being the 1%. |
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yevad
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Post by yevad on Jul 19, 2016 18:56:44 GMT -5
I'm new to Armageddon compared to 20 year vets. But no. I'm not new. And whenever I hear you guys talk about how crap the playerbase is and how they'll do anything to twink up and get their magickal buffs, I wonder if you guys are playing the same game that I am. Because while yes, there are people like that, it is not my experience that they are the norm, and I am not interested in the idea of giving these shit players coded "incentives" to follow the docs that, at the end of the day, won't make them any better at roleplaying anyway. That's my opinion based on my experience.
Again, if the playerbase was really as bad as some of you guys consistently say, I wouldn't be playing Arm. (If sexism was allowed in the rules and docs, I would in fact play and perhaps would like it better, but it's fine with me the way it is as well. It's really nothing worth railing against IMO.)
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Post by sirra on Jul 19, 2016 20:05:15 GMT -5
I'm new to Armageddon compared to 20 year vets. But no. I'm not new. And whenever I hear you guys talk about how crap the playerbase is and how they'll do anything to twink up and get their magickal buffs, I wonder if you guys are playing the same game that I am. Because while yes, there are people like that, it is not my experience that they are the norm, and I am not interested in the idea of giving these shit players coded "incentives" to follow the docs that, at the end of the day, won't make them any better at roleplaying anyway. That's my opinion based on my experience. Again, if the playerbase was really as bad as some of you guys consistently say, I wouldn't be playing Arm. (If sexism was allowed in the rules and docs, I would in fact play and perhaps would like it better, but it's fine with me the way it is as well. It's really nothing worth railing against IMO.) Sexism isn't worth railing about, because everyone in game plays it like it is in every other fictional medium. It only exists on the GDB as a silly narrative. RE: Playerbase I don't think anyone on this forum has ever really railed about the players. Most of us don't even care if someone is a twink or not. It's almost a badge of honor. In fact, I'd say the reason most of us kept playing for as long as we did, was BECAUSE of the playerbase. That said. Has the ratio of decent people to knob polishers ratio grown more unfortunate since circa ~2005? Yes. Dramatically so. And that's because a lot of great people have been driven off by staff. FUN FACT: There are games with 10x, 100x or 1000x the population of Armageddon, that don't have a dedicated shadow forum to hating its management. It never ceases to amaze me that a game with maybe ~50 people fucking around on prime time, has not one, but TWO forums devoted to it. This suggests that at one time, the game was genuinely special, before the admins tried to monetize it and began systematically ripping out everything fun about it. |
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Jul 19, 2016 22:35:35 GMT -5
I don't actually think the ARM playerbase is "bad". I think that they RP what the situation is and in my examples with elves in Tuluk under Sinjinn and gickers in general there isn't really a downside to allying with these anti-establishment or anti-social forces. Why?
In the case of Sinjinn and the elves, the dude like ran Tuluk. He had Qoriya if not in his pocket then in his corner. You were better off playing ball or sucking up than trying to treat him like shit because then you get knifed in the throat and your character is dead.
In the case of gickers, befriending one yields pretty big advantages in not just code but also access to plot (like sirra said). Normally the association isn't even bad because if Blue Robes or whatever find out what you're doing you have better odds that they use you as an informant on the rogue gickers or ask you to do special tasks with your rogue gicker ties because you and them are expendable. Doesn't sound that bad to me.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Jul 20, 2016 3:48:43 GMT -5
There's no use pushing a narrative on the GDB if everyone ignores it. I.E, that men and women are physically and socially equal in every respect, and its abnormal to expect men or women to be more often drawn to different occupations. Babies apparently come from magick, or else every profession in Armageddon has Swedish level of paid maternity leave. A society where they will fucking kill you for a drink of water, apparently finds it beyond the pale to hinder your next promotion because you got pregnant and can't really fight for the next nine months. It's ludicrous to import that level of social justice into a comically over-the-top unjust society. who gave u the idea that removing gender limits to char roles in arm meant that game society supported giving breaks to pcs who became less productive for any reason (including pregnancy)? ALSO. It's worth considering that the kind've people who are drawn to say, making female fighters, or floofy male aides...Are doing so because they enjoy the possibility of pushback or being seen as different, or having to prove themselves. It's an iconic trope of fiction.that is def something that players can and should police themselves by playing to the docs by not responding to them like theyre anything special unless they prove it by being useful to them in some way, just like any other (n)pc in game I'm betting that 99% of the players that want to make tough female warriors or floofy males are doing it out of the expectation that they'll be playing along with tropes established in 99.99% of ALL OTHER FICTIONAL MEDIUMS, where better writers than Armageddon staff's have gone with the flow of our most basic/fundamental/hard to ignore human conditions, instead of handwringing about it. we would be sharing that bet |
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Post by sirra on Jul 20, 2016 3:58:35 GMT -5
There's no use pushing a narrative on the GDB if everyone ignores it. I.E, that men and women are physically and socially equal in every respect, and its abnormal to expect men or women to be more often drawn to different occupations. Babies apparently come from magick, or else every profession in Armageddon has Swedish level of paid maternity leave. A society where they will fucking kill you for a drink of water, apparently finds it beyond the pale to hinder your next promotion because you got pregnant and can't really fight for the next nine months. It's ludicrous to import that level of social justice into a comically over-the-top unjust society. who gave u the idea that removing gender limits to char roles in arm meant that game society supported giving breaks to pcs who became less productive for any reason (including pregnancy)? Oh, go find any old GDB thread debating gender. You'll find all kinds of sagely given, batshit assertions, that border on 1984 levels of doublethink. One example is that there is absolutely nothing, whatsoever about the genders, that could give one or another an advantage/disadvantage in any conceivable social or physical regard. Taking that to its logical conclusion...Most women in the RL (and especially those in apocalyptic, shithole nations) have a harder time than men getting ahead, because they need maternity leave. Well. You're unlikely to get paid maternity leave in the dictatorship of Greater Tonga. Hell, even in first world countries, women have a measurable, long term pay gap owing to that. A guy that has to randomly work less 9 months out of the year, once, twice or more in his life, is going to find that bosses may not want to promote him as much, as well. But apparently, it's not an issue in Allanak. Because NOTHING can make them even the tiniest bit less equal. No matter what. (I never had the chance to ask about the risks of death in childbirth.) Find any kind of common sense, reasonable approach to it, and you'll find on the GDB, it's taken to the most asinine extreme. I just hate bad world building. |
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Jul 20, 2016 5:10:43 GMT -5
who gave u the idea that removing gender limits to char roles in arm meant that game society supported giving breaks to pcs who became less productive for any reason (including pregnancy)? Oh, go find any old GDB thread debating gender. You'll find all kinds of sagely given, batshit assertions, that border on 1984 levels of doublethink. One example is that there is absolutely nothing, whatsoever about the genders, that could give one or another an advantage/disadvantage in any conceivable social or physical regard. um lol well duh u dont need to have sex based biology differences in fighter/empathy capacities for women to still be able to get pregnant basicly ur argument would be buttloads better if u targeted the fact that women get all the bennies + being able to bear offspring. wtf arent males given equal opportunity to spawn kids? lol oh wait nowww the difference is important? wat |
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yevad
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Post by yevad on Jul 20, 2016 5:54:43 GMT -5
People aren't ignoring the no-sexism rule. They're just not being as extreme about it as people often are on the GDB. Sounds like a fine middle ground was reached. What a non-issue.
EDIT: And if nobody thinks the playerbase is bad, then I'm glad to hear that. Sometimes you people are just so salty, it's hard to tell.
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Post by sirra on Jul 20, 2016 6:07:18 GMT -5
Oh, go find any old GDB thread debating gender. You'll find all kinds of sagely given, batshit assertions, that border on 1984 levels of doublethink. One example is that there is absolutely nothing, whatsoever about the genders, that could give one or another an advantage/disadvantage in any conceivable social or physical regard. um lol well duh u dont need to have sex based biology differences in fighter/empathy capacities for women to still be able to get pregnant basicly ur argument would be buttloads better if u targeted the fact that women get all the bennies + being able to bear offspring. wtf arent males given equal opportunity to spawn kids? lol oh wait nowww the difference is important?wat I thought that part went without saying. But yes. It falls apart from many different angles, and is one of the most obnoxious examples of being unable to cope with nuance or basic fictional tropes, I've ever encountered in a storytelling setting. |
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yevad
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Post by yevad on Jul 20, 2016 6:43:24 GMT -5
It's not my favorite, but it's fine with me the way it is. I'm female and I would be fine with some sexism IG, but whatever, I can live with it the way it is. I'm glad the exaggeration of "equality" isn't taken to the extremes it's sometimes taken to on the GDB by particularly vocal weirdos. I can't relate to your annoyance that a policy (or at least an understanding of that policy advocated by several GDBers) you don't like isn't being adhered to IG. Shouldn't that be a good thing? It really seems like a gripe about nothing.
All the "rule" functionally does is make sexism less prominent and important than it would be if the policy was "wholesale sexism allowed" or even "wholesale sexism encouraged." People are already sexist without knowing it, so this helps temper it a bit. Like I said, you shoot for the extreme in order to achieve the mean. No big deal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 15:42:12 GMT -5
Except you're describing a coded scenario. If whoever had been messing with you had become visible at some point would you guys have been like. HI STRANGER, HAVE YOU SEEN THE GHOST? If a person had magically appeared out of nowhere while we're all standing together, weapons drawn, looking all about for a couple of minutes IRL (much longer time IG, considering) ... tension and adrenaline levels rising as we lose composure... That person would be seen as a source of scary powers. We would have attacked that person or ran. Probably both - I know one of the three would have gone with fight when having a fight/flight response, and I'm fairly certain the other would have ran. I can't actually recall what sort of character I was playing lol. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 15:52:51 GMT -5
EDIT: And if nobody thinks the playerbase is bad, then I'm glad to hear that. Sometimes you people are just so salty, it's hard to tell. This 1000×, this forever, this.com, this. But also, there are definitely players here that do think the playerbase is bad. I haven't played much lately. My biggest RP complaint is that, in my last go, I saw an increase in players telling me with emotes vs showing me. Some half-giant did a line so bad that I very nearly reported it (and I've never reported anyone, ever). I don't remember what it was, but it had 'obviously' in it. Obvious is a good word. It shouldn't, IMO, ever be used in an emote; Arm isn't IronRealms. Emotes here have standards. I thought I stumbled upon a few things from staff that were telly vs showy. Idk if it was comparable to emotes or offensive for a different reason, but it made me wonder if staff had set precedents at the time which were merely being reflected by some of the playerbase. |
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Post by sirra on Jul 20, 2016 16:32:16 GMT -5
It's not my favorite, but it's fine with me the way it is. I'm female and I would be fine with some sexism IG, but whatever, I can live with it the way it is. I'm glad the exaggeration of "equality" isn't taken to the extremes it's sometimes taken to on the GDB by particularly vocal weirdos. I can't relate to your annoyance that a policy (or at least an understanding of that policy advocated by several GDBers) you don't like isn't being adhered to IG. Shouldn't that be a good thing? It really seems like a gripe about nothing. All the "rule" functionally does is make sexism less prominent and important than it would be if the policy was "wholesale sexism allowed" or even "wholesale sexism encouraged." People are already sexist without knowing it, so this helps temper it a bit. Like I said, you shoot for the extreme in order to achieve the mean. No big deal. I'm annoyed by what it represents. It's just the most obvious example of other risible, groupthink staff failings to articulate an interesting world. At least, the parts of it that weren't from Dark Sun. |
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