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Post by jcarter on Mar 30, 2016 18:33:24 GMT -5
so basically the original sorcerer subguilds were shit and were so far out of line that it's taken more than doubling the number of spells available to them to make them viable.
lmao.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 0:57:45 GMT -5
Sorcerers totally need the spells: portable hole, portal, charm, and possess corpse (basically the best Nilazi spells).
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OT
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Post by OT on Mar 31, 2016 1:22:11 GMT -5
so basically the original sorcerer subguilds were shit and were so far out of line that it's taken more than doubling the number of spells available to them to make them viable. lmao. Imagine if someone was so mindblowingly retarded as to then do the exact same thing to elementalists and expect it to work out better. Someone remind me of the definition of insanity? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 16:04:36 GMT -5
so basically the original sorcerer subguilds were shit and were so far out of line that it's taken more than doubling the number of spells available to them to make them viable. lmao. Imagine if someone was so mindblowingly retarded as to then do the exact same thing to elementalists and expect it to work out better. Someone remind me of the definition of insanity? That's basically why my estimation is this nerfs the shit out of them, not boosts them. Because seeing the effects on that already HAPPENING to a magick guild, there's some basis of compare - even if specifics differ. |
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bobo
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Post by bobo on Apr 1, 2016 1:27:32 GMT -5
You're missing the point. The fundamental unit of comparison is not "magick guild." Of course a magick subguild is weaker than a magick main guild. Those entities don't exist in isolation. The unit of comparison is "PC."
Furthermore, the comparison between "magick main guild" and "mundane with magick subguild" is a meaningless one as well, as that matchup doesn't exist anymore (after main guild mages die off). For what it's worth, it's probably a wash powerwise, if not favoring the mundane main guild, because mage PK usually revolves around only a few spells, while the versatility of mundane skills like stealth and combat abilities provide a solid foundation, and the PC may have enough powerful spells in their subguild. But again, MEANINGLESS COMPARISON. It's like asking if a dinosaur can beat up Hulk Hogan.
The only worthwhile comparison here is "full mundane" vs "mundane with magick subguild," as that is the comparison that, you know, actually exists. This is where the notion of being "strictly dominated" comes in. The magicker can do everything the mundane can do, PLUS. It's not the kind of thing you can argue away with Lizzie-like feelings, imagination, and tortured hypotheticals. It's math. For positive X,Y: X+Y>X, even if Y is smaller than it was when you had to choose BETWEEN X and Y. (For those not paying attention, X is mundane guild, Y is magick.) The only hope for mundanes now is to minmax the most powerful extended subguild possible. Karma-0 characters are indisputably second-class citizens.
It matters not at all for the purposes of comparison that magicker main guilds yesterday had more firepower than magick subguilds today. Again, that is confused, Lizzie-like thinking. What matters is that previously, a meaningful CHOICE existed between magick and mundane that involved actual tradeoffs. You may have heard the phrase "interesting decision" in the context of game design. This is an example of one of those decisions. Now, there is no such meaningful choice. Magick isn't an interesting choice anymore. It's a necessary choice to maximize utility. It's a no-brainer decision, which is the least interesting kind of decision for a game to have. We're not talking about RP holier-than-thou here where we play mundanes to be true to the world, we're talking about power balance, and that means we're talking about maximizing power.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Apr 1, 2016 2:38:00 GMT -5
It's not the kind of thing you can argue away with Lizzie-like feelings, imagination, and tortured hypotheticals. It's math. For positive X,Y: X+Y>X, even if Y is smaller than it was when you had to choose BETWEEN X and Y. (For those not paying attention, X is mundane guild, Y is magick.) The only hope for mundanes now is to minmax the most powerful extended subguild possible. Karma-0 characters are indisputably second-class citizens. It matters not at all for the purposes of comparison that magicker main guilds yesterday had more firepower than magick subguilds today. Again, that is confused, Lizzie-like thinking. What matters is that previously, a meaningful CHOICE existed between magick and mundane that involved actual tradeoffs. You may have heard the phrase "interesting decision" in the context of game design. This is an example of one of those decisions. Now, there is no such meaningful choice. Magick isn't an interesting choice anymore. It's a necessary choice to maximize utility. It's a no-brainer decision, which is the least interesting kind of decision for a game to have. We're not talking about RP holier-than-thou here where we play mundanes to be true to the world, we're talking about power balance, and that means we're talking about maximizing power. he had me at lizzielike |
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grumble
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Post by grumble on Apr 1, 2016 4:58:52 GMT -5
But you know, magickers always were people first, some had worse afflictions than others by being close to their element in ways that maybe were horrible, but I've never encountered a magicker, rogue or gemmed, that I thought was not people, particularly the rogues, the rogues have to hide what they are, and it's a very big deal when they pull you aside and show you what they are. I don't see why the magicker guilds had to go, I feel like Armageddon has lost something and they should replace it as quickly as possible, while keeping their subguilds.
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grumble
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Post by grumble on Apr 1, 2016 5:02:23 GMT -5
Sorcerors, true sorcerers, I never met one, but I heard they can be compelling characters as well, even defilers, not for the power they possess, but simply because someone is sharing with you and inviting you to participate. I know mindbenders have fucked with my plots, but they never let me know exactly how. A few have ground up skills on my PC and my PC is like, holy shit, that feels, odd, but they never really reacted.
EDIT: I think maybe the worst I met was a sociopathic Nilazi who was disturbed by how they didn't seem to feel as much as everyone else did. Close second was a whiran who did their whiran thing and eventually turned on my PC's friend.
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grumble
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Post by grumble on Apr 1, 2016 5:04:32 GMT -5
Because honestly, Arm cannot salvage this unless they quickly admit a mistake and put the original elementalists back in...
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OT
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Post by OT on Apr 1, 2016 5:56:22 GMT -5
It's hardly an unusual thing when a change to Armageddon makes it worse. They don't necessarily have to salvage it, it's clear that they have enough players who will take literally anything and praise it without any regard for the actual results. The game trucks on, worse, less interesting, but still functional. However, they absolutely need to do something about the fact that there's no penalty to the elementalist subguilds.
It's a farce the way this change shits all over mundane characters. I'm tempted to roll up an assassin/rukkian, maxing backstab (takes about 4 days played), and then systematically PKing everybody with my AI+++ strength and agility, on a max-stealth human character that's indistinguishable from a mundane to anyone except other rukkians with the identify spell up -- in other words, you'll never get found out as a magicker unless a mindbender cares.
Fortunately I'm not in favor of fucking with the game even more than staff already does just to prove a point, which is also why I was against the wikileaks. I don't feel so confident that nobody else will do anything like this, however. The power of a competent combat character with just a couple of powerful spells is out of this world, and it has completely eliminated what was cool and interesting about having a skilled mundane character.
You know that type of player who likes to play a ranger and just roam around playing text-based Skyrim? Or nameless rinth assassins who just enjoy the satisfying feeling of having the deadliest character on the block? Or any player who enjoys the warrior class for the fact that playing a warrior (often a dwarf) gives you the potential to be the biggest badass around, without some gimmicky race like mul or HG? All those players will be playing elementalists now.
Because why shouldn't they? They have the option of taking +50% power at the cost of virtually nothing. Easy choice. And are those really the players who make the best 'gickers? Meanwhile, the players who enjoyed the playstyle of a mage and the magick mechanics, the players who we want in the role of a mage... most of what they enjoyed about this role is now gone. Now it's just a warrior/ranger/assassin/whatever with two or three useful spells.
This change has been 100% negative in my view. I can see nothing good about this.
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grumble
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Post by grumble on Apr 1, 2016 11:33:15 GMT -5
Newtwink, we both don't like the change but out concerns are polar opposites here.
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grumble
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Post by grumble on Apr 1, 2016 11:38:33 GMT -5
Like, I give absolutely zero shits about most mundane guild becoming more powerful, what upsets me is removal of core content that made Armageddon Armageddon. Armageddon never WAS balanced.
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OT
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Post by OT on Apr 1, 2016 11:43:28 GMT -5
Well, more than 50% of the playerbase claims to think these changes improve the game.
At least they're willing to say so in order to please staff and get that karma.
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grumble
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Post by grumble on Apr 1, 2016 11:43:30 GMT -5
And they consulted nobody, literally nobody, at all, before cutting this huge swath out of their game. They could have opened a discussion, consulted players about proposed changes, found out what people liked and didn't like. Imagine full gemmers working in concert with gicked up rangers and assassins, and that is the shit HRPTs would come down to for those players. But no, they didn't just split them all into subguilds, they removed three elements that make Amageddon unique.
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grumble
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Post by grumble on Apr 1, 2016 11:44:47 GMT -5
Athas mud will be opening soon, the other %50 can come there.
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