OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257 
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Post by OT on Mar 23, 2016 18:30:59 GMT -5
Someone will cherrypick one of your examples and say how a krathi/outdoorsman could already do that, or something, and will feel that this disproves the entire argument.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Mar 23, 2016 19:33:09 GMT -5
Well, since nobody seems to care about discussing how this obliterates numerous roles in order to turn Arm into the world's shittiest MMO, I may as well join you all in discussing the mechanics. After this shortsighted change breaks the game, it will be used as an excuse to nerf magick. Once magick is nerfed, the disinterest in playing a quarter-assed elementalist will be used as an excuse to remove magick from the game entirely. Why not? It was just causing a lot of work for the staff to maintain it, and all those complaints... The sad thing is I've heard I'm not even the first person to see this coming. :/ I'm also blown away by the repeated, "This won't break the game lol you cant prove it" comments. Do any of you really believe a Krathi-Warrior isn't more dangerous than a Warrior or easier to minxmax than a Krathi? Because the only thing repeatedly denying the obvious will do is make you look like you're terrible at lying. |
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 23, 2016 19:57:06 GMT -5
I'm also blown away by the repeated, "This won't break the game lol you cant prove it" comments. Do any of you really believe a Krathi-Warrior isn't more dangerous than a Warrior or easier to minxmax than a Krathi? Because the only thing repeatedly denying the obvious will do is make you look like you're terrible at lying. I've found that it's really just that people are against criticism, and will contrive to hold whichever opinion is the one that opposes any given instance of criticism. Complaining is automatically and universally wrong, is the prevailing disposition, and then they establish their opposing argument in a kind of reverse process. It's like a parent defending their child; they won't accept that the child could be wrong, so they fabricate whatever stance is required to support the child, even if that's something completely absurd and blinkered that ignores all reason and clings to some arbitrary buzzword like, in this case, "you don't know what other changes are coming!" Or that complete and utter moron who insisted that everything would be fine because he took it for granted that every spell had been secretly nerfed, without ever realizing how profoundly inane that is. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 22:04:55 GMT -5
Sometimes I feel like there's no pleasing some people. C'est la vie.
I think staff will take measures with those elementalist sons of bitches wiping out byn patrols and other wise killing every single dude they see out in the wilderness just because they are the most powerful MoFos on the planet, and no body can stop them! Staff will be jealous and be like "Hey dude, you're stealing all our fun!" FORCE STORAGE. You know it's true.
Seriously, I think staff wouldn't keep tabs on things like and nip them in the bud. But if not I know players would also be self policing and someone loud and proud in these extreme examples is going to get the wrong kind of attention and get taken down.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Mar 23, 2016 22:12:33 GMT -5
Sometimes I feel like there's no pleasing some people. C'est la vie. They didn't do it to please us. OMINOUS! |
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 23, 2016 23:10:52 GMT -5
Sometimes I feel like there's no pleasing some people. C'est la vie. I think staff will take measures with those elementalist sons of bitches wiping out byn patrols and other wise killing every single dude they see out in the wilderness just because they are the most powerful MoFos on the planet, and no body can stop them! Staff will be jealous and be like "Hey dude, you're stealing all our fun!" FORCE STORAGE. You know it's true. Seriously, I think staff wouldn't keep tabs on things like and nip them in the bud. But if not I know players would also be self policing and someone loud and proud in these extreme examples is going to get the wrong kind of attention and get taken down. It's not about the extreme cases like that. Nobody really thinks that people are going to systematically wipe out the Byn or anything. It's the fact that this will most likely give rise to a number of wildly powerful characters who are not limited and vulnerable the way the old elementalists were. And it's about the fact that these new elementalists infringe 100% on the mundane world by being better at everything. There's no longer anything interesting about mundanes. Being a great mundane warrior is meaningless when there's going to be a bunch of warrior/mages who are a lot better. It's boring and discouraging. It has taken away what was special and cool about both mages and mundanes. It's now a game where everybody is a warrior, ranger, thief, assassin or merchant, and some are also vastly more powerful than all the other warriors, rangers, thieves, assassins and merchants can ever become, because they took some 2-karma subguild. I think that's so massively unhealthy for the game that it has completely turned me off of it. I also suspect that it'll lead to such a staggering increase in magick PCs that people will yearn for the Reborn days when it was mostly just out in the desert. |
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 386
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Post by jesantu on Mar 24, 2016 6:49:15 GMT -5
I've had some time to digest this recent change and establish my opinion now. I actually almost liked it at first but mainly because I've wanted to see magick nerfed for a long time. It might even be neat to play out some big world plot that turns off all magick/advanced psionics just to see how the game plays without it temporarily.
But as newtwink has illustrated, it just overpowers them to the other guilds. I still think in some sense it waters them down. Conceptually. A warrior souped up with magick is still mostly a warrior and not killing his enemies as a full fledged magicker. He's killing his enemies as a souped up warrior.
Staff have said nothing has changed ic but it has. Immensely. Where once you had elementalists capable of a full range of powers, now none have but one range of the original full spectrum. How is that not IC? Was there a sudden shift in the magickal planes resulting in a weakness of elementalist power? If it affects the IC world, it's an IC change. Plain and simple.
My opinion is this is one of the worst changes. A minimum of 50% of the players strongly disapprove. And for a game with an entire separate board dedicated to badmouthing you, that's gotta be embarrassing. Contrary to what some may say of me here, I'm really not a cynic. I'm actually quite an optimist because where others keep maintaining the game is forever ruined, I have kept repeating it can turn back around and improve. But this was one of the worst decisions. Worse than nerfing sorcerers. The concept of a magicker has been removed on the grounds that now magickers can be a person first. That doesn't even mean anything. People played an elementalist so they could explore what it is to be in tune with an element. You can argue that that's still possible but don't expect to see it happen with some ranger who has 3 spells and can never branch the full tree. He's not a magicker, he's a classic ad&d bard: a jack of all trades but master of none.
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Post by gloryhound on Mar 24, 2016 7:06:46 GMT -5
I don't mind the removal of full elementalists. They haven't really had a valid role in the game for a long, long time.
Instead of mini-elementalist subguilds, I'd rather there would just be a low chance of any PC discovering one day that they are an elementalist. Then, the more they use and learn about their affinity for an element, being eventually able to progress to a full elementalist in time if they push hard enough, the more their mundane skills fade toward apprentice.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 386
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Post by jesantu on Mar 24, 2016 7:18:58 GMT -5
I don't mind the removal of full elementalists. They haven't really had a valid role in the game for a long, long time. I believe theres a large number of players with a preference for playing elementalists who would strongly disagree. I do like your idea for randomly discovering innate powers but don't see why full fledged magickers can't also exist (especially if there's a strong demand for it). There was a warrior who staff gave a few of the advanced psionic skills to back in the day. They didn't tell him they were going to give it to him, they just prompted him with a few echoes until he got the hint and typed skills, then noticed the addition. It was seamlessly woven into the IC world. Thats what I call storytelling. Shame you don't hear about things like this taking place nowadays. |
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Post by snorpborp on Mar 24, 2016 8:11:49 GMT -5
Staff have said nothing has changed ic but it has. they havent said that. rath just posted= nothing has changed IC apart from what your PCs might observe. so if ur char observes changes in magick then something IC with elemental planes or magick happened, right? they dropping lots of hints that this is ic |
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Mar 24, 2016 9:30:30 GMT -5
Staff have said nothing has changed ic but it has. they havent said that. rath just posted= nothing has changed IC apart from what your PCs might observe. so if ur char observes changes in magick then something IC with elemental planes or magick happened, right? they dropping lots of hints that this is ic They've explicitly said that the changes are OOC. |
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 386
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Post by jesantu on Mar 24, 2016 9:44:38 GMT -5
they havent said that. rath just posted= nothing has changed IC apart from what your PCs might observe. so if ur char observes changes in magick then something IC with elemental planes or magick happened, right? they dropping lots of hints that this is ic They've explicitly said that the changes are OOC. "apart from what you might observe", Prime Minister SinisterWhich means so much, but not really. There's no IC explanation, there's no deep mystical reason for why this happened on an IC level. It's another sweeping change with zero backdrop. Compare this to old tuluk when it was "closed". No one was told on the gdb. No one bothered to say "look guys, the layout of old tuluk is complete shite so we're gonna nuke the place and eventually work to rebuild it into something better". There was just an announcement for an HRPT and people logged in and the entire city fell to ruins. Some of us were stuck in buildings that were on fire and collapsing and the imms threw fun echoes at us, giving us hints as to how we could escape. The destruction, the occupation, the liberation and the rebuilding all took years of real time. And you'd never have a clue it was all done simply to fix one big huge ooc blemish: the shitty layout of the city. Fast forward to new tuluk closing. Something about some kryl. Blah blah blah. More predictable brain washing of the people. Blah blah blab. And bam. Finished. Tuluk is now closed. No real updates, no "What You Know" page added. Nothing added. Just subtracted (as always). The staff of today have no creative powers. They have no ideas. They don't know how to offer a creative element to the game in any way. They don't want to tell people in advance of the OOC changes they are making. Fine, don't then. Just do it IC. The Dragon comes and revisits the world, a powerful object that diffuses magick is brought forth to fight back the dragon and in so doing creates a cataclysm that leaves a rippling effect throughout the known world. Magick has now been reduced exponentially as a result. Find out ic for more details, please expect changes to your guild/subguild options. |
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Post by snorpborp on Mar 24, 2016 9:59:23 GMT -5
they havent said that. rath just posted= nothing has changed IC apart from what your PCs might observe. so if ur char observes changes in magick then something IC with elemental planes or magick happened, right? they dropping lots of hints that this is ic They've explicitly said that the changes are OOC. holy shit no they haven't. there wasn't a big RPT and maybe IC explanation is weak sure. would have been more fun with more plot. but from the faq about the change "Whether or not your PC notices any change should be down to what they encounter IC and based on their IC knowledge of elemental magick. You are free to have your character respond in a way consistent with the IG world and their individual personality if they notice anything." that's in the first damn thing they posted. clearly changes are IC if its legit for chars to notice and respond. am i taking crazy pills here? |
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Post by sergeantraul on Mar 24, 2016 10:09:13 GMT -5
You didn't elaborate shit. Your thesis was "now magickers are more powerful than mundanes, and that's bad." A hilariously unsupported and facially incorrect claim. You didn't say they are going to be more more powerful. You didn't say they're going to be more powerful in a worse way. You're the one whose argument completely lacks nuance. Faced with that, rather than make a more nuanced argument or take a less extreme stance, in traditional internet fashion you dig in your heels, scream bias, and refuse to attempt the critical thinking involved in actually unpacking and explaining your argument. Most likely because you started to do it, and realized that you were wrong, and we can't admit to being wrong on the internet. I'll pick up that gauntlet. You are playing a Byn sergeant. You are out on a ride with your group of barely functional idiot minions, when a ranger/rukkian with godspeed, master archery, and a supply of peraine attacks your unit. You have exactly three defenses. 1, You have a spellcaster in your group who can smoke the ranger in the very small time window he is in range, or give chase. 2, After your group is dead, staff stores the raider and raises your unit from the dead. 3, Stop riding out when the raider tends to log in. A ranger with a krathi AOE ranged attack spell decides to introduce as much peraine and heramide into the economy as he likes. A defensively skilled warrior with a magic elemental club, a viv shield, and the ability to cast earthquake. Block, parry, invuln, AOE bash, headshot, take all your stuff. I'll end with the easy one. The logical rp control on "too much sparring" is "precious feels and immerzionz". Warrior/viv with heal wound and refresh doesnt really need to stop sparring, does he? Not seeing any shocking departures from what is already possible in the game here. You're unlikely to defeat a maxed, prepared and aware magicker. That isn't new. When the complaint was "omg magickers used to have weaknesses you could take advantage, now they'll be OP" I don't really care what combination of mundane and magickal skills you can dream up for a prepared and intelligent magick user; you aren't proving that these are unbeatable character without exploitable weaknesses. The only difference now is you might see more of these kinds of characters because they won't be bored to death with their character being nothing but a list of spells. Again, I'm not seeing what's so horrible here. Is your argument really "Oh my gerdz the wilderness might actually be dangerous!!!!!!!!!!"? |
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 386
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Post by jesantu on Mar 24, 2016 10:16:45 GMT -5
They didn't offer a plot or IC explanation because they're just volunteers and weaving a story into a game change involves work.
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